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The death notifications in USSR during WW2

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  • #31
    To the original topic...only in finnish and russian but there's an interesting 'order' displayed at the end of this clip:


    It's at about 9:40
    Wisdom is personal

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    • #32
      Good find Karri, the order in the end is really interesting. I think this pretty much settles the issue.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
        Good find Karri, the order in the end is really interesting. I think this pretty much settles the issue.
        Aha, PP(est). It makes it clear like a day light. Just like these documents below:

        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...ml?img=death_g
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...ml?img=death_h
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...ml?img=udpogib
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...g=udpogib&id=2
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...g=udpogib&id=4
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...g=udpogib&id=5

        And one here just for visual example. One of the Winter war death notifications with the note about monthly pension of 3000 rubles. Death on 13 March 1940:


        Though, it could be that the was a directive from Zhdanov about it. But it must have been temporary thing or just his personal flux (see the death notifications from the Finish war above). Here is f.ex. a telegramm to Kreml with complain that the father did not get the death notification (I think so as the telegramm language is a shortened version of the real one. Andrey and Amvas can you help out) for his killed son during the Finish war:
        http://www.soldat.ru/doc/original/or...tml?img=telegr
        Kind regards
        Igor

        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

        Comment


        • #34
          An interesting aspect to the death notification that I did not see raised in these discussions is what the Red Army soldiers called "death lockets". I first ran across this in Anatoly Ananyev's novel, "Tanki idut rombom". In the story the First Sergeant for a company of female Traffic controllers collected up their death lockets in case in were killed during the course of the battle of Kursk. The death lockets, as I understand them and our learned colleagues from Russia can correct or verify, were as simple as a spent cartridge shell into which the soldier slide a slip of paper with next of kin information.

          In the American army we have the dog tags. In Vietnam I wore one around the neck and one on my boot laces, in case I was blown to smitherines and a boot survived.

          The ancient Greek hoplites had a sticks with a leather thong tied to their wrist that had their name.

          At the battle of Cold Harbor, Union soldiers had next of kin information pinned to the great coats.

          This seems to be a very interesting aspect universal to soldiers in most armies and in most wars.

          rna
          Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 23 May 07, 18:22.
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
            An interesting aspect to the death notification that I did not see raised in these discussions is what the Red Army soldiers called "death lockets". I first ran across this in Anatoly Ananyev's novel, "Tanki idut rombom". In the story the First Sergeant for a company of female Traffic controllers collected up their death lockets in case in were killed during the course of the battle of Kursk. The death lockets, as I understand them and our learned colleagues from Russia can correct or verify, were as simple as a spent cartridge shell into which the soldier slide a slip of paper with next of kin information.

            In the American army we have the dog tags. In Vietnam I wore one around the neck and one on my boot laces, in case I was blown to smitherines and a boot survived.

            The ancient Greek hoplites had a sticks with a leather thong tied to their wrist that had their name.

            At the battle of Cold Harbor, Union soldiers had next of kin information pinned to the great coats.

            This seems to be a very interesting aspect universal to soldiers in most armies and in most wars.

            rna
            Here is the photo of RKKA medalions:

            Example of a paper for medalion:




            More info in russian here: http://www.soldat.ru/doc/search/med.html
            Last edited by Egorka; 24 May 07, 03:10.
            Kind regards
            Igor

            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Egorka View Post
              Here is the photo of RKKA medalions:

              Example of a paper for medalion:




              More info in russian here: http://www.soldat.ru/doc/search/med.html
              That guy was from my region!

              Comment


              • #37
                Guys, let me also remind you why I made the thread.
                This was reaction on the specific statement: "dead soldiers family wasnt even notified of the death unless they were a party member."

                The thing I was revolted against is the part "unless they were a party member." This is clearly not correct. Plus hi statement was applied to the whole war and that is how I perceived it.

                So the question remains if the families were notified at all, regardless of any political or social group.

                What I noticed while looking at hose papers (see my post above), was that there was a conciderable time gap between date of death and the date of the paper. Exmpales: 13 march - 26 june, february - 14 sept, 04 jan - 26 july, 04 march - 12 aug, 20 feb - 25 july.

                Those documents I presented were not actual death notifications ("Izveschenie o smerti" ot shortly in the folk language "Pohoronka"). Most of them were paper given to the family member as prove that the soldier died in the battle and the family is eligible for the pension allowance.

                So IF the info in the film is correct than it can explain the time gap. There was a an initial directive about holding the death notifications, but it must have been cancelled quickly. Else people will not be capable to get the death sertificates after 3-4 months after the soldiers death. Here is my theory.

                The situation after 22 june 1941 was different. The death notifications were regulated by the specific order from 25th (if I remember correct) of June.
                Last edited by Egorka; 24 May 07, 04:51.
                Kind regards
                Igor

                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                  Guys, let me also remind you why I made the thread.
                  This was reaction on the specific statement: "dead soldiers family wasnt even notified of the death unless they were a party member."

                  The thing I was revolted against is the part "unless they were a party member." This is clearly not correct. Plus hi statement was applied to the whole war and that is how I perceived it.

                  So the question remains if the families were notified at all, regardless of any political or social group.

                  What I noticed while looking at hose papers (see my post above), was that there was a conciderable time gap between date of death and the date of the paper. Exmpales: 13 march - 26 june, february - 14 sept, 04 jan - 26 july, 04 march - 12 aug, 20 feb - 25 july.

                  Those documents I presented were not actual death notifications ("Izveschenie o smerti" ot shortly in the folk language "Pohoronka"). Most of them were paper given to the family member as prove that the soldier died in the battle and the family is eligible for the pension allowance.

                  So IF the info in the film is correct than it can explain the time gap. There was a an initial directive about holding the death notifications, but it must have been cancelled quickly. Else people will not be capable to get the death sertificates after 3-4 months after the soldiers death. Here is my theory.

                  The situation after 22 june 1941 was different. The death notifications were regulated by the specific order from 25th (if I remember correct) of June.
                  Of course the first, key step in notification to a family is identification of the body.

                  Thanks for the example of the paper slips. I had the impression that they were self made on anything available. I have heard "death locket" which may be literary; you used 'medallion'. Was there an official term for the containers of these slips of personal identification?

                  Again, thanks for the terrific example.

                  rna
                  Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Egorka, a claim that only party members were ever notified of death throughout the war is clearly false. A claim that in some cases death notifications were withheld for whatever reason is however true. Whether in those cases party membership could change treatment I don't know. Given how party membership could affect your treatment in pretty much every aspect of Soviet life, I would say that having party membership could in some cases also play a part.

                    Armstrong, I've seen it called capsule here.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                      ... Given how party membership could affect your treatment in pretty much every aspect of Soviet life, I would say that having party membership could in some cases also play a part...
                      and how ''party'' membership could affect your situation - back then?
                      all of those subjected to ''purges'', were a ''party'' members - btw.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by stalin View Post
                        and how ''party'' membership could affect your situation - back then?
                        all of those subjected to ''purges'', were a ''party'' members - btw.
                        Eh, are you joking? If you've ever lived in the Soviet Union you would know how party membership could (didn't always) affect pretty much every aspect of your life.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                          ... party membership could (didn't always) affect pretty much every aspect of your life.
                          see what i mean:
                          in 1930/50's -
                          being a communist party member could affect your life in both ways: positive as well as negative.

                          most of then ''political'' prisoners were, in fact, communists.
                          there was cut-throat competition within then authority system,
                          and communists used to fall its victims first.

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                          • #43
                            I sincerely doubt most of the political prisoners were communists, but I guess that depends on what you think are political prisoners. For sure communists killed each other too - no contest there. Hitler killed plenty of nazis too. I hope you agree though that for most part being a party member meant getting to enjoy perquisites not available to the common people.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                              ... for most part being a party member meant getting to enjoy perquisites not available to the common people.
                              not as much as you might think, actually.
                              my parents/grandparents did pretty okay, but - none of them was a party member.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
                                Of course the first, key step in notification to a family is identification of the body.

                                Thanks for the example of the paper slips. I had the impression that they were self made on anything available. I have heard "death locket" which may be literary; you used 'medallion'. Was there an official term for the containers of these slips of personal identification?

                                Again, thanks for the terrific example.

                                rna
                                The official name was "MEDALLION". The firt directive regarding them was issued by order #856 on 14 August 1925 "On implementation of document "Instruction on usage of medalions with personal data of soldiers of the RKKA and RKKF" (О введении в действие "Инструкции по использованию медальонов с личными сведениями о военнослужащих РККА и РКВМФ".). This directive introduced the medalions of rectangular flat shape (most left on the picture). As they were not germetical they were very poor quality and did not protect the paper inside from the influence of the nature.

                                In 1937 this directive was canceled. It was made previously by an enemy of the state.

                                The order #138 on 15 March 1941 issued by the Kommisariat of Defense actuated "Regulation on personal staff losses and burial procedures for the soldiers killed in RKKA at war time" ("Положение о персональном учете потерь и погребении погибшего личного состава Красной Армии в военное время"). It was in force during the whole war.

                                The new medalion shapes were introduced. They were hexagone shaped tubes made of ebonite (see middle of the picture). They were not very good either. The ebonite let the humid sip trough and the papar was affected a lot, especially after 50 - 60 years in the soil.

                                Soldiers also widely used the cartridge-cases. Preffeably from a rare wepon, so that it would be easier noticed by the burial squad.

                                Unfortunately, very many soldiers never got medallions and were burried without any identification or record. Also some soldier purpusefully avoided filling in the personal info - if you do you get killed - they said (superstition).

                                Source: http://www.soldat.ru/doc/search/med.html
                                Kind regards
                                Igor

                                * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                                * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                                * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                                Comment

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