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  • #16
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    During our occupation most of our production was sent to Russia, the balance of trade was definitely not in our favour.
    And not in Russian favor too. Primorie region had more natural resources, than all 3 Baltian countries together, produced more food and significant share of consumer goods, planes, helicopters, and missiles, but many of our sailors and fishermen had no dwelling, they lived on ships, and our workers lived in concrete barraks. My friend’s father in law was captain of ship during WW2, participated in landing on Malaya Zemlya, has many awards for his work in Far East Shipping Company, and he has no flat till his retirement due to age.
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    Most heavy infrastructure investments made during the occupation that people like Stalin like to bring up were of little use to us - all workforce for heavy factories was imported from Russia and the manufacture was of such nature that there has been no use for the factories in a market economy - what do you do with a factory specialised in making low quality tank towers in very high quantities? .
    Estonia was agrarian country, so there were no Estonian engineers and workers for its industrialization. It was great mistake to industrialize former Soviet Republics, I think. All investments were lost, and there is problem of Russian-speaking people left there after 1991. Because of this tank factories nobody dared to drop bombs on your heads.
    BTW, what is use in market economy of Estonia and all its production, if all this can be produced in EU? If you will sell it at low prices, you will steal job from Europeans.

    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    Given that our living standard was quite a bit higher than Russian before the war, our living standard did remain higher also after the war despite the draining of our resources by Russia.
    You resources were so mighty, that survived WW2 devastation and 45 years of hard exploitation! Taking off my hat.
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    After we got our freedom back we have been doing quite well in pretty much all areas. There are now a lot more Estonian books published and the number of students enrolled in universities has skyrocketed (which is actually becoming a problem). The demographic situation has been bad as in all former communist countries, but it is showing clear signs of improvement.
    Than you must be happy about such good outcome, and enjoy your present and excellent future. Happy people usually forget gloomy past, and do not pour salt on old wounds.

    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    As to deportations, I would again like to point out that the first mass deportation happened before the guerrilla war started and before the Germans had ever attacked Russia at a time when Russia and Germany were allies.
    Hitler’s Germany and USSR never were allies, you know it for sure. Non-aggression pact was not alliance, and it was forced measure to postpone war, because of Czechoslovakia, France, England, and Poland refused to conclude treaty with USSR on mutual help in case of aggression, as previous expired. May be Stalin was not enough nice for them, but he tried as he can to prevent war. England and France wanted this war, only they did not awaited, that they turn will be first.
    Estonians were hostile to USSR, so having potential enemy supporters near frontline would be at least unwise, as it was proved later. Japans in USA were confined in concentration camps too during WW2, sough there were no Japan Waffen SS there.

    Main and best trade partner of Russia is Germany, majority of Russians have no bad feelings to contemporary Germans. We cannot improve our history, but we can make better our future. And all would be well enough, if not new Antlantists. They endanger and impede our trade, when we find longer and more expensive ways for transit, they create other obstacles, using their membership in EU. Russia again is forced to move to alternative direction: pipeline to Eastern sea will be built in next year, Russian government is making preparations for big summit of South-Eastern countries in Vladivostok in 2010. It must be done many years ago, for economy of this region is fast growing, and Russia has substantial ifrastructure here.

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    • #17
      Fareasterner, you seem to be confusing several different countries and issues. However, I will gladly discuss with you any matter related to Estonia, (including the causality involved in occupying a country, committing atrocities and getting the population to hate you) if you wish, but please start another thread for it.

      As to Hitler and Stalin not being allies, you can spin it any way you like. In my book, if two countries decide to divide territories of third countries between themselves, coordinate military and diplomatic actions to act on it and even arrange supply to each other then that is an alliance. If you've read material about Hitler published in Soviet Union in 1940 and early 1941 about Germany you'd have no doubt Soviet Union considered Germany its ally.
      Last edited by pp(est); 07 Apr 07, 13:58.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
        Hitler’s Germany and USSR never were allies, you know it for sure. Non-aggression pact was not alliance, and it was forced measure to postpone war, because of Czechoslovakia, France, England, and Poland refused to conclude treaty with USSR on mutual help in case of aggression, as previous expired. May be Stalin was not enough nice for them, but he tried as he can to prevent war. England and France wanted this war, only they did not awaited, that they turn will be first.
        That depends on who you talk to and you can argue over the specific definition of the words but it all boils down to them working together to divide up all the surrounding countries and how they would absorb them into their country or allied nations.

        Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
        Estonians were hostile to USSR, so having potential enemy supporters near frontline would be at least unwise, as it was proved later.
        I wonder why they were hostile? Maybe because the Soviets wanted to take over their country? You would be hostile if someone wanted to take over your country wouldn't you?

        Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
        Japans in USA were confined in concentration camps too during WW2, sough there were no Japan Waffen SS there.
        What we did to the Japanese was a horrible thing but it was definitely not what you would call concentration camps. They didn't have Waffen SS troops running around the US so I don't see how they could have raised any Japanese SS troops.

        Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
        Main and best trade partner of Russia is Germany, majority of Russians have no bad feelings to contemporary Germans. We cannot improve our history, but we can make better our future.
        And we don't have bad feelings versus Germans or Russians either but to listen to Andrey we have been brainwashed growing up and continue to be bombarded with anti-Russian propaganda every day. All of this is complete (as stalin would put it) bullshit.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
          Fareasterner, you seem to be confusing several different countries and issues. However, I will gladly discuss with you any matter related to Estonia, (including the causality involved in occupying a country, committing atrocities and getting the population to hate you) if you wish, but please start another thread for it.
          .
          Real forumists never change thread


          Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
          As to Hitler and Stalin not being allies, you can spin it any way you like. In my book, if two countries decide to divide territories of third countries between themselves, coordinate military and diplomatic actions to act on it and even arrange supply to each other then that is an alliance. If you've read material about Hitler published in Soviet Union in 1940 and early 1941 about Germany you'd have no doubt Soviet Union considered Germany its ally.
          Is your book Holy Writing? Poland seized part of Czechoslovakia, using opportunity together with Germany, so Poland was Hitler’s ally?
          I remember prewar film ‘If tomorrow will be a war”. In USSR nobody doubted in inevitable war with Germany. USSR armies were moved to western borders, fortifications were built – it was for better alliance with Germany? All untrustworthy elements were moved from USSR western territories to East, all resources were directed to military production. As for rhetoric in media, it was pure diplomacy, for not to give formal cause for accusation in hostile intentions.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Psycho View Post
            That depends on who you talk to and you can argue over the specific definition of the words but it all boils down to them working together to divide up all the surrounding countries and how they would absorb them into their country or allied nations.
            From viewpoint of abstract humanism, ignoring fact that it was choosing of most convenient position for starting war, you are may be right. With Leningrad under direct cannon fire from Finland, and Wehrmacht starting position two times closer to Moscow 3-rd Reich would be uber alles today. And nobody would blame Stalin and USSR in aggression. There is saying: better be guilty in killing someone, who intended to kill you, than be right and dead.
            Originally posted by Psycho View Post
            I wonder why they were hostile? Maybe because the Soviets wanted to take over their country? You would be hostile if someone wanted to take over your country wouldn't you?
            I understand they feelings. They were hostages of situation. Their land was vital for USSR in that war. If not Cold War may be they were released after WW2.
            Originally posted by Psycho View Post
            What we did to the Japanese was a horrible thing but it was definitely not what you would call concentration camps.
            It was acceptable practice in those days. You are making mistake, judging situation from contemporary position. You do not know many things about those times. Under concentration camp I do not mean gas camera and big ovens for exterminating people. Just do not know, how you name it.
            Originally posted by Psycho View Post
            They didn't have Waffen SS troops running around the US so I don't see how they could have raised any Japanese SS troops.
            They were having no opportunity for that; there were not threat of war on your territory, nevertheless US made precautions. Situation in USSR was more threatening.
            War is bad thing, and some actions are forced measures, to prevent worse.
            Originally posted by Psycho View Post
            And we don't have bad feelings versus Germans or Russians either but to listen to Andrey we have been brainwashed growing up and continue to be bombarded with anti-Russian propaganda every day. All of this is complete (as stalin would put it) bullshit.
            I wonder, what makes you think, that you are not brainwashed? Politicians do it all the time with population. And hired historians. Journalists are called second ancient profession after prostitution, and equally venal. Brainwash can give very pleasant feeling. Just look at Germans before WW2 and at very beginning of it.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
              From viewpoint of abstract humanism, ignoring fact that it was choosing of most convenient position for starting war, you are may be right. With Leningrad under direct cannon fire from Finland, and Wehrmacht starting position two times closer to Moscow 3-rd Reich would be uber alles today. And nobody would blame Stalin and USSR in aggression. There is saying: better be guilty in killing someone, who intended to kill you, than be right and dead.
              If you didn't take over those areas then the Germans would have to fight their way through them unless those people allied with the Germans. By taking over those areas you spread your troops out even more. Might not have been such a good idea but things worked out fine since you ended up defeating the Nazis anyway but who knows what would have happened if things had been different?

              Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
              I understand they feelings. They were hostages of situation. Their land was vital for USSR in that war. If not Cold War may be they were released after WW2.
              Why did you need to keep those countries? They should have been allowed to decide who's side they wanted to be on but I'm pretty sure we know the answer to that one which is why they weren't allowed to choose.

              Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
              It was acceptable practice in those days. You are making mistake, judging situation from contemporary position. You do not know many things about those times. Under concentration camp I do not mean gas camera and big ovens for exterminating people. Just do not know, how you name it.
              Interment camps if I recall correctly. It was wrong to do that because we treated the Germans differently. Probably because they looked like us and the Japanese didn't.

              Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
              I wonder, what makes you think, that you are not brainwashed? Politicians do it all the time with population. And hired historians. Journalists are called second ancient profession after prostitution, and equally venal. Brainwash can give very pleasant feeling. Just look at Germans before WW2 and at very beginning of it.
              I'm not brainwashed because I don't blindly accept what my government tells me. I am free to make up my mind on things. My country has done bad things and good things. We are currently doing some bad things trying to accomplish something good.
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              • #22
                Originally posted by Psycho View Post
                ... We are currently doing some bad things trying to accomplish something good.
                that's the west is all about!
                very ''western'' style of handling things!
                hypocrisy - all the way!

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=Psycho;661145]If you didn't take over those areas then the Germans would have to fight their way through them unless those people allied with the Germans. By taking over those areas you spread your troops out even more. Might not have been such a good idea but things worked out fine since you ended up defeating the Nazis anyway but who knows what would have happened if things had been different?

                  USSR went to Poland, when its government fled to London, and all Polen fighting was over. England and France fooled Poland government, as they promised help and dissuaded from concluding anti-Hitler Alliance with USSR. All Western help was declaring war to Germany, named “strange”, when French and German soldiers visited each other to drink champagne.

                  Originally posted by Psycho View Post
                  Why did you need to keep those countries? They should have been allowed to decide who's side they wanted to be on but I'm pretty sure we know the answer to that one which is why they weren't allowed to choose.
                  Democracy is good during peace, but war is war. Price of question was very high to allow deciding, besides, their choice was clear. Majority of European countries become Hitler’s allies or accomplices, may be involuntary, but it was no big difference for us. Sweden produced 30% bombs, dropped on USSR, Romanians and Hungarians invaded USSR together with Germans

                  Originally posted by Psycho View Post
                  I'm not brainwashed because I don't blindly accept what my government tells me. I am free to make up my mind on things. My country has done bad things and good things. We are currently doing some bad things trying to accomplish something good.
                  And what if your government does not tells you something, how you will make up your mind on these things? Communist USSR government allowed us to know your culture – books, films, and music. Some of your writers were printed may be in greater quantities, then in USA. Just little test: can you name 10-15 Soviet popular books/writers, films, and songs?
                  USSR people were may be poor at you standards, but they were encouraged to read much, go to theaters, cinema, engage in sport, or some arts at local clubs, travel all over country, for tickets were cheap. It was no significant difference in social position and wealth between people, so people can marry because of love, and not for money or status, and I consider it very valuable. May be because of that many our women looking nice, as some people do notice. There were no fear of job loss, or debts. But many Western people continue chewing old stale chew about Bolsheviks, purges, and famines, with many lies and exaggerations, and do not know anything else. It is very boring. How we can not think about heavy brainwash?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by stalin View Post
                    that's the west is all about!
                    very ''western'' style of handling things!
                    hypocrisy - all the way!
                    No Stalin, not all people are so bad. Sough some people must be driven to happines with iron hand

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      All Western help was declaring war to Germany, named “strange”, when French and German soldiers visited each other to drink champagne.
                      That I've never heard of. I've heard about the French sending some troops into Germany but it was few and not much was done before retreating back into France to wait for the Germans to attack.

                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      And what if your government does not tells you something, how you will make up your mind on these things?
                      The government doesn't tell us things. We get info from the media. The government tells them stuff but some of it is crap and the media will tell us when they are full of it. There is bias in the media depending on who you read or talk to of course so it's up to each individual to make up their own mind.

                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      Communist USSR government allowed us to know your culture – books, films, and music. Some of your writers were printed may be in greater quantities, then in USA. Just little test: can you name 10-15 Soviet popular books/writers, films, and songs?
                      You could know about our culture but you weren't given full information. Some stuff was kept from you of course. There may not be much call for any Soviet stuff over here, I don't know. Do you have any idea how many books come out every week? Same for movies and music. We have literally tons of stuff available and most of it I have absolutely no interest in it. I don't follow fads and pretty much stick with what I like. Not enough time to waste on stuff I'm not interested in. The average person I would guess is not interested in the Soviet stuff you mention because the average person seems interested only in whatever is new and has the attention span of a dog. They move on to the next new thing almost day to day. That's just how it is.

                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      USSR people were may be poor at you standards, but they were encouraged to read much, go to theaters, cinema, engage in sport, or some arts at local clubs, travel all over country, for tickets were cheap. It was no significant difference in social position and wealth between people, so people can marry because of love, and not for money or status, and I consider it very valuable. May be because of that many our women looking nice, as some people do notice. There were no fear of job loss, or debts.
                      We were encouraged to read (don't know about young people now though). Movies were big when I was growing up but nothing like they hype them now. Theater I don't know, I don't care for the artsy stuff. Sports are huge and always popular over here. Travel is always encouraged but nothing is cheap over here (affordable but not cheap).

                      Social position and money/status may be different but most people do marry for love. We don't have a bunch of people marrying for money or status unless it's people that already have one or both. We also have many good looking women. If you have been led to believe otherwise on these then you have been lied to by whoever told you that.

                      Job loss and debt does cause trouble here but some people get too stressed too easily. You can find another job and you can pay off your debt. You just need to not spend more than you can afford.

                      Originally posted by Fareasterner View Post
                      But many Western people continue chewing old stale chew about Bolsheviks, purges, and famines, with many lies and exaggerations, and do not know anything else. It is very boring. How we can not think about heavy brainwash?
                      You guys saying that doesn't make it true. I was never taught any of that stuff in school (late 70s and early 80s) and I doubt they teach that now based on what we hear they do teach. I had to really search to learn anything about non-US history and geography in high school. Once I got to college I was able to pick and choose what classes I wanted and there was some European and Russian stuff but still mostly centered on US stuff. There just weren't too many interested in learning about other countries I guess. Nowadays there seems to be even less interest so how could they be learning these things when it's not offered?

                      There is no anti-Russian propaganda flooding thru our media and schools and if you are being told that then it's a lie. If you are being told it and continue to believe it then feel free to visit and see for yourself. Otherwise you are being fooled by anti-Western propaganda and there is no helping you see the truth.
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                      • #26
                        Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
                        All Western help was declaring war to Germany, named “strange”, when French and German soldiers visited each other to drink champagne.
                        That I've never heard of. I've heard about the French sending some troops into Germany but it was few and not much was done before retreating back into France to wait for the Germans to attack.
                        Psycho, you must be kidding me, right? Never heard of "strange war"?
                        In USA/UK it is reffered to as "phoney war", in France - "drоte de guerre", in Germany - "Sitzkrieg" (sitting war).

                        Just type in to the Google...
                        Kind regards
                        Igor

                        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                          Psycho, you must be kidding me, right? Never heard of "strange war"?
                          In USA/UK it is reffered to as "phoney war", in France - "drоte de guerre", in Germany - "Sitzkrieg" (sitting war).

                          Just type in to the Google...
                          Heard of the phony war but never heard of the drinking together part.
                          Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Egorka View Post
                            Psycho, you must be kidding me, right? Never heard of "strange war"?
                            In USA/UK it is reffered to as "phoney war", in France - "drоte de guerre", in Germany - "Sitzkrieg" (sitting war).

                            Just type in to the Google...
                            I've heard of it too...like Psycho said, never heard about sipping champagne though. Of curse I am not a fan of that phrase "Phoney War" ... someone forgot to tell the sailors who were fighting and drowning at sea from 1939 already.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by joea View Post
                              I've heard of it too...like Psycho said, never heard about sipping champagne though. Of curse I am not a fan of that phrase "Phoney War" ... someone forgot to tell the sailors who were fighting and drowning at sea from 1939 already.
                              Well the term "phoney war" was not made up by Stalin nor by a procommunist fraction. Mr.Winston Churchil used it to discribe the situation in his memoirs. I would dare to say that your (as well as mine) preference of this term is absolutely irrelevant.

                              Phoney war = nothing done. If in doubt - ask a pole.



                              Best regards
                              Igror Korenev
                              Last edited by Egorka; 17 Apr 07, 07:40.
                              Kind regards
                              Igor

                              * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                              * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                              * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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                              • #30
                                Nice info

                                Nice writing, nice atitude...well done.

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