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  • #16
    Originally posted by Imperial View Post
    It was in the Russian Empire after it was illegally annexed in 1812. It was previously part of Moldavia. In 1917 it declared Idependence from Russia and voted for Union with Romania, since the majority of the population was Romanian.
    Maybe we can remember what was there when Roman Empire existed???

    In 1917 it legally was in the Russian Empire... After 1917 nothing legal took place there...
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by amvas View Post
      Maybe we can remember what was there when Roman Empire existed???

      In 1917 it legally was in the Russian Empire... After 1917 nothing legal took place there...
      You want to talk about a region that was "legally" in the Russian Empire but don't like to see how it got there in the first place? Nice approach, but historically incorrect. Basarabia was never part of your homeland, it was part of your empire. And it got into your Empire when you took it in 1812. Because you took it in 1812, it was not possible for the Romanians living there to unite with the Romanians living in Wallachia in 1859, like the other half of Moldavia did. In 1859, 74% of the population in Basarabia was Romanian.
      In 1918, because your Empire was weakened, the Romanians living in Basarabia declared independence and voted to unite with their brothers in Romania.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Imperial View Post
        You want to talk about a region that was "legally" in the Russian Empire but don't like to see how it got there in the first place? Nice approach, but historically incorrect. Basarabia was never part of your homeland, it was part of your empire. And it got into your Empire when you took it in 1812. Because you took it in 1812, it was not possible for the Romanians living there to unite with the Romanians living in Wallachia in 1859, like the other half of Moldavia did. In 1859, 74% of the population in Basarabia was Romanian.
        In 1918, because your Empire was weakened, the Romanians living in Basarabia declared independence and voted to unite with their brothers in Romania.
        Btw, this subject is out of the field of my site.
        I told you my position and it's enough..
        I'm not going to spread the thread in this way.
        So, plz, return to the military aspect of the topic...

        Regards,
        Alex
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #19
          Here is a map:

          http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07l.jpg

          Last edited by amvas; 12 Mar 07, 12:23. Reason: Original image was downloading too slowly
          Kind regards
          Igor

          * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
          * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
          * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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          • #20
            Sorry, Amvas, for inserting a big picture.
            Kind regards
            Igor

            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Imperial View Post
              It was in the Russian Empire after it was illegally annexed in 1812. It was previously part of Moldavia. In 1917 it declared Idependence from Russia and voted for Union with Romania, since the majority of the population was Romanian.
              Interesting, I suppose from the Romanian perspective it was an error that Romania's war goals were not limited like for Finland; that is just fighting to regain lost (or claimed territory) but Romanian troops ended up going to Crimea and Stalingrad.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by joea View Post
                Interesting, I suppose from the Romanian perspective it was an error that Romania's war goals were not limited like for Finland; that is just fighting to regain lost (or claimed territory) but Romanian troops ended up going to Crimea and Stalingrad.
                The Romanians tried to build Great Romania in 1941-44.

                They joined occupied Soviet Moldavia and large part of the Ukraine to Romania. They called it Transistria. Occupied Odessa also became Romanian territory, it was under Romanian ocupation rules not under the German ones!!!!

                About Finland. As I know the Finns began to speak after the war that they didn't invade to the USSR but only tried to return their lost territories. As I know those were only words, the real actions of the Finns in 1941-42 show that it was a lie for public. In reality those were the Soviet troops and not internal Finnish moral limitations who stopped the Finnish advance in 1941.

                In the Karelian Isthmus the Finns were stopped by the Karelian Fortified Region and artillery of ships of the Soviet Baltic Fleet anchored in Leningrad. The Finns had no enough heavy artillery to crush the Soviet fortifications there.

                The Finns spoke they didn't want to move to the south from the Svir River to help to the Germans to encircle Leningrad. In reality they crossed the Svir River and became to move to south to connect to the Germans butthe Soviet command concentrated there a fresh regular division from Far East withexcellent training and equipment and that division repulsed the advancing Finnish units to the northern bank of the Svir.

                The same picture was in all the other directions where the Finns fought. The Soviet soldiers stopped them.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by joea View Post
                  Interesting, I suppose from the Romanian perspective it was an error that Romania's war goals were not limited like for Finland; that is just fighting to regain lost (or claimed territory) but Romanian troops ended up going to Crimea and Stalingrad.
                  Some think it was wrong. But others say once the war started it was impossible to stop after taking Basarabia. Even if we stopped in Basarabia in case of German defeat Romania was on the road of the Soviets towards the West, and I doubt they would have hesitated to enter it and change its government with a communist one. Finland did not have this important central European position. The fact is Antonescu hated the bolsheviks and wanted to be a useful ally in the East so that he will help eliminate the bolshevik menace in the East and win favour with Hitler in order to regain NW Transylvania which was given to Hungary by the Germans in 1940.

                  cheers

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thank you Andrey and Imperial for your answers. I think it would help to find some sources on Finland's war goals and/or operational orders for 1941, Andrey makes a good point about using military actions to interpret goals but I don't doubt our Finn members would umm disagree.

                    Imperial, one last question, straying OT (sorry Alexei) I am reading a book about the period leading up to the Munich accords and read (not only there) that Romania was considering the Soviet request to allow troop movement as part of a security guarantee to Czechoslovakia. Any more info from the Romanian side would be appreciated.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                      Even if we stopped in Basarabia in case of German defeat Romania was on the road of the Soviets towards the West, and I doubt they would have hesitated to enter it and change its government with a communist one. Finland did not have this important central European position.
                      Romania was an important central European position ???? Maybe, southern position??? Poland was an important central European position.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        Romania was an important central European position ???? Maybe, southern position??? Poland was an important central European position.
                        If you look at a map of the time you'll see Poland and Romania are geographically in the center of Europe, with Europe being from Portugal to the Urals. And along with the Baltics they block the main "invasion route" between the Baltic and the Black Sea. The victorious Soviets would have pursued the Germans into Romania too, in order to cut their oil supply from there and their divisions in southern Europe/Balkans+Greece, whether or not Romania went to Stalingrad or stayed in Basarabia in 1941.

                        cheers

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                          If you look at a map of the time you'll see Poland and Romania are geographically in the center of Europe, with Europe being from Portugal to the Urals. And along with the Baltics they block the main "invasion route" between the Baltic and the Black Sea. The victorious Soviets would have pursued the Germans into Romania too, in order to cut their oil supply from there and their divisions in southern Europe/Balkans+Greece, whether or not Romania went to Stalingrad or stayed in Basarabia in 1941.

                          cheers
                          Ok, what was to the south from Romania?

                          Romania was a southern way to Europe and it wasn't very good for an invader.

                          In a map it is Ok but in reality there were mountains to the south from Poland. Polish territory was a plain with developed road structure.

                          Everything to the south from Poland was a mountain region with very undeveloped road system.

                          Here why the Germans invaded to the USSR from Poland.

                          Poland was the central entrance to Europe.

                          Romania was the southern entrance and it was not an easy entrance.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                            victorious Soviets would have pursued the Germans into Romania too, in order to cut their oil supply from there and their divisions in southern Europe/Balkans+Greece, whether or not Romania went to Stalingrad or stayed in Basarabia in 1941.

                            cheers
                            If to read only it so the images of cruel Soviet hordes invading in poor good Romania are created in a reader's mind.

                            In reality Romania attacked the USSR and captured large part of its territory including Russian Odessa like a robber

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                              If to read only it so the images of cruel Soviet hordes invading in poor good Romania are created in a reader's mind.

                              In reality Romania attacked the USSR and captured large part of its territory including Russian Odessa like a robber
                              I never said "cruel soviet hordes" or "poor good" Romania. Neither did I say it was good for Romania to go as far as Odessa or Stalingrad.
                              I only pointed out the reasons behind Antonescu's decision to go to war with the USSR. The reasons are split in 2 stages - the entry in Basarabia and the campaign beyond it. And my opinion is that even if we would have stopped in Basarabia, when the Soviets came pushing the Germans back they would have entered Romania! Or do you think they would have stopped in Basarabia, and then detour us and push all their forces through Poland and Czechoslovakia?

                              cheers

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