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ATTENTION! Download and read FREE a book about German crimes in Byelorussia

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  • No problem Andrey, we won because any reasonable person understands our positions. But if we look at these things as "battles" then we always "loose" because trolls always win @ trolling.

    Comment


    • I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that this was a thread about a free book somewhere on the net, and that I could get a link for downloading the book, and then discussing the book...

      1. I went to page one, and tried the link, I was put onto a website, with someking of 'donation', wanted for the book... I was using Opera as my browser, perhaps another browser would allow me to download the book for free???

      2. How has this thread become 'Katyn part II' ???

      I thought that that topic was quite run through and through...

      I cannot understand how Andrey is holding one book on military history as a 'bible' like authority to tell that anything not in accord with this book is 'herecy', I mean, c'mon... I know from having read only one book on a subject, compared to having read two or more that you get a much more balanced view...

      Andrey, could you stop quoting this book that we can see you are very exited about, but unless it's published in english, just reciting it is something close to a organized religous heretic hunt in military history that I have come across...

      I'm shure it's a good book, but we cannot really tell, as we dont read the cyrillic alphabet...

      So, how would you get the free book downloaded??? Would you use Firefox, or internet explorer rather than Opera???

      And yes, everybody knows that the Germans went completely mad when they invaded Russia... Hitlers special order on the eve of Barbarossa, pretty much gave the German soldier a 'carte blanche', when roaming the conquested areas...

      And as professor John Ericcson in his book 'The road to Staligrad', ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Road-Staling.../dp/0304365416 ), has pointed out, it was not only the SS Einzatzgruppen who were doing horrible war crimes (actually they were busy doing the mass executions of Jews, and thus the crimes agaisnt Russian civilians were almost totally perpetrated by Wermacht soldiers).

      Right up to the top, the Generals turned a blind eye, to the tremedous ammount of crimes agaisnt the civilian population, this continued in various forms, so that in the bitterly cold winter, just taking over the household of a family, and throwing them out into the cold, was almost a death centence, and it happened a lot...

      It seems that the 'madness' of the first six months started to die down...

      Ofcourse terrible things happened, especially in the war against the partisans (and here also some Soviet partisans did kill Soviet civilans suspected of aiding the Nazi's), but there was a terrible logic at work in these crimes against civilians, that wasnt there in the initial madness of 1941...

      Having said that, the systematic Killing of officers in Katyn was a warcrime, and so very typical of Stalin, as he had done similar 'purges', of the Soviet officer corps (on a much larger scale I might add), in his great paranoic killing spree from circa 1936 to 1938, where millions of party members, army personel, and just ordinary citizens, were punished without any real reason what so ever, from execution to various lengths in gulags, or prison... Millions were sent to Siberia, and millions went missing (were executed, or in some cases were imprisoned without any information of the arrest given to anybody outside the prison)...

      I am suprised that Stalin didnt kill more Polish POWs, given that Poland and Russia hadnt been the best of friends, and that Poland had tried to help the White Russians in the Civil war by waging open war onto the red Russians (Bolshevik armies)...

      But if anybody has a good link to where the book can be downloaded without any donation brouhaha, I would be most appreciative!!!
      Attached Files
      "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

      If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 17poundr View Post
        I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that this was a thread about a free book somewhere on the net, and that I could get a link for downloading the book, and then discussing the book...

        1. I went to page one, and tried the link, I was put onto a website, with someking of 'donation', wanted for the book... I was using Opera as my browser, perhaps another browser would allow me to download the book for free???
        I just tried in Firefox 2.0, IE 7.0, Opera 9.02 and it works perfectly in ALL of them.
        Go to message #1. Click on the link to the attached file (it is stored on the Armchair forum server, btw). A small window should appear asking wheather you want to open the file o save it on disk. Do either and then unzip the content... BINGO!

        Andrey, could you stop quoting this book that we can see you are very exited about, but unless it's published in english, just reciting it is something close to a organized religous heretic hunt in military history that I have come across...

        I'm shure it's a good book, but we cannot really tell, as we dont read the cyrillic alphabet...
        Ok... go to the post #1 of this thread and read the very first line: "Due to the efforts of our Vietnamese friend DANNGOC (he scanned app. 400 pages of the original text!) we have the ENGLISH version of the Soviet book of “Out of the Fire” (“Ia iz ognennoi derevni”) by Ales Adamovich."
        My emphasis added.

        But if anybody has a good link to where the book can be downloaded without any donation brouhaha, I would be most appreciative!!!
        See above.
        Kind regards
        Igor

        * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
        * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
        * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Egorka View Post
          I just tried in Firefox 2.0, IE 7.0, Opera 9.02 and it works perfectly in ALL of them.
          Go to message #1. Click on the link to the attached file (it is stored on the Armchair forum server, btw). A small window should appear asking wheather you want to open the file o save it on disk. Do either and then unzip the content... BINGO!


          Ok... go to the post #1 of this thread and read the very first line: "Due to the efforts of our Vietnamese friend DANNGOC (he scanned app. 400 pages of the original text!) we have the ENGLISH version of the Soviet book of “Out of the Fire” (“Ia iz ognennoi derevni”) by Ales Adamovich."
          My emphasis added.


          See above.
          THANKS!!!

          One question? I have a 19" flatscreen monitor on a 72herz refresh rate...

          I'm wondering, is it good to read a whole book from screen??? Or are the modern monitors already so safe that it wont start to do damage on the eyes?

          I mean, it will take days for me to read a book of say 400pages (no I am not a super reader, and I learned to read English as a second language, when I was 9, it's crazy because I learned to speak english first, but then we moved to Finland)....

          Have you read it off screen, or printed it and then read it??? (that's what I did to a book that I was interested in back in 1996)...

          Anyway, thanks a lot!

          Mr Poundr.
          "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

          If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 17poundr View Post
            THANKS!!!

            One question? I have a 19" flatscreen monitor on a 72herz refresh rate...

            I'm wondering, is it good to read a whole book from screen??? Or are the modern monitors already so safe that it wont start to do damage on the eyes?

            I mean, it will take days for me to read a book of say 400pages (no I am not a super reader, and I learned to read English as a second language, when I was 9, it's crazy because I learned to speak english first, but then we moved to Finland)....

            Have you read it off screen, or printed it and then read it??? (that's what I did to a book that I was interested in back in 1996)...

            Anyway, thanks a lot!

            Mr Poundr.
            Think yourself

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 17poundr View Post


              And yes, everybody knows that the Germans went completely mad when they invaded Russia... Hitlers special order on the eve of Barbarossa, pretty much gave the German soldier a 'carte blanche', when roaming the conquested areas...

              And as professor John Ericcson in his book 'The road to Staligrad', ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Road-Staling.../dp/0304365416 ), has pointed out, it was not only the SS Einzatzgruppen who were doing horrible war crimes (actually they were busy doing the mass executions of Jews, and thus the crimes agaisnt Russian civilians were almost totally perpetrated by Wermacht soldiers).
              True. And these crimes were perpetrated also by Nazi Allies like, for example, Rumenians in Southern Russia and Ukraine.





              Originally posted by 17poundr View Post

              Having said that, the systematic Killing of officers in Katyn was a warcrime, and so very typical of Stalin, as he had done similar 'purges', of the Soviet officer corps

              I wonder about the fate of "red" soldiers that were captured in Poland in the 20's.
              Were they killed in mass as happened in Finland with that butcher of Mannerheim?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by .sergio. View Post
                I wonder about the fate of "red" soldiers that were captured in Poland in the 20's.
                Were they killed in mass as happened in Finland with that butcher of Mannerheim?
                In response to the re-emerging question of the situation of Russian prisoners of the 1920 war, the Head Office of State Archives together with the Federal Agency for Russian Archives have published a collection of archival materials in Russian, entitled „Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow” [“Red Army Soldiers in Polish Captivity in 1919–1922. A Collection of Documents And Materials”] (Moscow 2004). It comprises a selection of 338 source documents from Polish and Russian archives referring to the stories of Russian prisoners of war from the moment of their capture, through the imprisonment in Polish POW camps, until their return to the Soviet Russia.
                This one-thousand-page publication has been meticulously prepared academically. The authors’ intention was to present to, first of all, Russian historians and public opinion the most important archival documents touching upon the question which, to date, has caused a lot of controversies and has been the subject of various propagandist campaigns. The data contained in the publication concerns the total number of Red Army prisoners during the war of 1919–1920, including the number of those who died, as well as the cause of their death.
                The authors – Polish historians, outstanding specialists on the history of the Polish–Bolshevik war, namely Professor Waldemar Rezmer and Professor Zbigniew Karpus of the Mikołaj Kopernik University in Torun, Professor Gennadij Matvejev of the Lomonosov University in Moscow, as well as Polish and Russian archivists who conducted the archival investigation and processed the documents — have guaranteed the credibility and high scientific standard of the publication.
                The diligent approach to the problem allowed to establish a common standing of the Polish and Russian historians. They stated that the presented archival materials are credible and reliable, and that they reflect the truth of the difficult situation of Soviet POWs imprisoned in camps on the territory of Poland. According to the estimates of Polish historians, the number of Russian prisoners in Polish camps in 1920 oscillated between 80 and 85 thousand, while the number of deaths during the overall period the camps were active amounted to 16–17 thousand. Professor Matvejev estimates that there were 18–20 thousand fatalities.
                Thus, the publication repudiates a widespread opinion of the Russians, who quote a many times higher number of the victims in this group of war fatalities (40, 60 or over 100 thousand). The publication also refutes the hypothesis of alleged mass executions of Soviet POWs in Polish camps, which, according to some Russian historians, “justified”, in Stalin’s eyes, the Katyn atrocity. Source documents prove that the cause of prisoners’ deaths were diseases or epidemics (typhus, cholera, dysentery, flu) which took a heavy toll in this war-damaged country, not only in POW camps, but also among fighting soldiers and civilians.
                The publication is available for purchase through the Head Office of State Archives. Individuals or entities interested in the publication may also order by post (00–950 Warszawa, ul. Długa 6, PO box 1005), by fax (22 831 75 63) or e-mail ([email protected]).
                http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=506
                - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                Comment


                • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                  In response to the re-emerging question of the situation of Russian prisoners of the 1920 war, the Head Office of State Archives together with the Federal Agency for Russian Archives have published a collection of archival materials in Russian, entitled „Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow” [“Red Army Soldiers in Polish Captivity in 1919–1922. A Collection of Documents And Materials”] (Moscow 2004). It comprises a selection of 338 source documents from Polish and Russian archives referring to the stories of Russian prisoners of war from the moment of their capture, through the imprisonment in Polish POW camps, until their return to the Soviet Russia.
                  This one-thousand-page publication has been meticulously prepared academically. The authors’ intention was to present to, first of all, Russian historians and public opinion the most important archival documents touching upon the question which, to date, has caused a lot of controversies and has been the subject of various propagandist campaigns. The data contained in the publication concerns the total number of Red Army prisoners during the war of 1919–1920, including the number of those who died, as well as the cause of their death.
                  The authors – Polish historians, outstanding specialists on the history of the Polish–Bolshevik war, namely Professor Waldemar Rezmer and Professor Zbigniew Karpus of the Mikołaj Kopernik University in Torun, Professor Gennadij Matvejev of the Lomonosov University in Moscow, as well as Polish and Russian archivists who conducted the archival investigation and processed the documents — have guaranteed the credibility and high scientific standard of the publication.
                  The diligent approach to the problem allowed to establish a common standing of the Polish and Russian historians. They stated that the presented archival materials are credible and reliable, and that they reflect the truth of the difficult situation of Soviet POWs imprisoned in camps on the territory of Poland. According to the estimates of Polish historians, the number of Russian prisoners in Polish camps in 1920 oscillated between 80 and 85 thousand, while the number of deaths during the overall period the camps were active amounted to 16–17 thousand. Professor Matvejev estimates that there were 18–20 thousand fatalities.
                  Thus, the publication repudiates a widespread opinion of the Russians, who quote a many times higher number of the victims in this group of war fatalities (40, 60 or over 100 thousand). The publication also refutes the hypothesis of alleged mass executions of Soviet POWs in Polish camps, which, according to some Russian historians, “justified”, in Stalin’s eyes, the Katyn atrocity. Source documents prove that the cause of prisoners’ deaths were diseases or epidemics (typhus, cholera, dysentery, flu) which took a heavy toll in this war-damaged country, not only in POW camps, but also among fighting soldiers and civilians.
                  The publication is available for purchase through the Head Office of State Archives. Individuals or entities interested in the publication may also order by post (00–950 Warszawa, ul. Długa 6, PO box 1005), by fax (22 831 75 63) or e-mail ([email protected]).
                  http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=506
                  OFF-Topic!

                  If you want to discuss it, begin new thread

                  Comment


                  • Tell it Sergio, he started.
                    - Your Highness, the enemy is so numerous... they outnumber your army.
                    - My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
                    (Polish King Jan III Sobieski during his campaigns)

                    Historia Wojskowa Portal Historyczno-Wojskowy phw.org.pl

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                      Tell it Sergio, he started.
                      I am speaking it for both you and to 17poundr.

                      Comment


                      • ok, I opened a new thread.

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