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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    " It beats James Bond in my view."

    Reality always beats fiction in my view.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    My responses are in bold type
    :
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    Why FSB? Why not Mossad, CIA, MI5, mafia, his wife, lover of his wife and so on?

    Absence of any motive at present.
    There are no reasons for Russia to kill him RIGHT NOW.

    If he had potential to implicate FSB in killing of Politkovskaya.

    IF FSB have killed Berezovsky or Zakaev I would not be sorry for him. One more rascal would died. But Litvinenko??? He was a ZERO, a large political ZERO.

    You would accept security service hits on exiles in the UK if they were worthy targets, but not low level former employees.

    Motive? Aren't you hearing the anti-Russian scream of your mass media?

    I doubt it exists to the extent you think.

    And yersterday Russian TV news said that

    1. a few days later the summit Russia-EU in Helsinki will be opened

    2. a few days ago Russian and British lawyers had a large progress in the agreement about the extradition rules between our countries.

    Who are afraid to be extradited? Berezovsky and Zakaev (representetive of the Chechen bandits in the West). They are "friends" of Litvinenko. Berezovsky not once was caught in his talkings about sacrificing some of his friends to blame FSB in it. What do you want to get more?

    I haven't seen report of B talking about expending a friend to frame FSB. I would have thought that would be a prominent piece of current Western reporting if it was verified.

    What do you mean ex-KGB? KGB was closed in 1991.

    And was replaced by FSB and SVR - and other acronyms maybe. I presume Litvinenko and Lugovoi - the visitor from Moscow - served in KGB and successor Agencies.


    I don't know about Gordievsky.

    Maybe his story is not well reported in Russia, but his wwas a massive defection.
    But Litvinenko is a corrupt FSB official who betrayed his motherland and his duty. He was not serving to the Communists, he was serving in FSB of democratic Russia when he became a traitor.

    Traitor because of conscience or corruption?



    Very good logic - two Russians met, one of them was a former FSB officer so it means the secnd one was an officer of FSB....

    See the Fox news article. Lugovoi is ex-security service.


    Why aren't the West is worring about the Arabian oil? As I know they raised oil prices in the 70s very significantly.

    It is. They did. That's why the West worries. Some argue that oil was a major factor in Iraq invasion.

    To buy oil from the Arabs is OK and is not dangerous, to buy Russian gas is dangerous. Is it OK?

    IMHO both are potentially dangerous. In today's world, reliance on other states for energy needs makes you vulnerable.

    Those criminals have been speaking scorn of their Motherland for many years and are still alive. But now FSB decided for some reasons decided to check that wrong thing. And FSB decided to do it right now, during important negotiations with European Union. Isn't it a nonsense????
    I take this point. Unless the perpetrator is identified, we will not know the why, the why now, and maybe even the how.
    "Sheer nonsense" is the official resonse of Russian Authorities. That may be correct but given the records of security services of all nations, who knows? They would say that wouldn't they?
    A decendant of Tolstoy wrote a letter to the Daily Telegraph today drawing attention to the case of Nikolai Khokov in 1950s. It is said that Krushev ordered him to kill an emigre in West Germany. His conscience made him publicly confess the plot. He fell ill 3 years later and was treated in a US Military Hospital with horrible symptoms which turned out to be as a result of radioactive thallium poisoning. Sounds familiar?
    There will be lots of twists and turns in this story no doubt. It beats James Bond in my view
    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim H. Moreno View Post
    Well, let's try not to close the thread, especially since I started it. What about this story that fits into the current conversation:

    Friend: Poisoned Ex-Russian Spy on Life Support
    I have read it and I haven't found obvious mistakes.

    But he didn't say any word who is Berezovsky except he is a Russian in exile.

    He didn't say that it is considered in Russia that Litvinenko lied about order to kill Berezovsky.

    And I have recognized that the guy who was earlier called "an ex-KGB officer" in this thread was Berezovsky's bodyguard!!!! So before the poisonong Litvinenko met to a Berezovsky's bodyguard and another Russian.
    Last edited by Andrey; 23 Nov 06, 09:53.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim H. Moreno
    replied
    Well, let's try not to close the thread, especially since I started it. What about this story that fits into the current conversation:

    Friend: Poisoned Ex-Russian Spy on Life Support

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Fascinating thread! Perhaps we should stick to discussing WW2?
    However, a few thoughts.
    I presume that whoever poisoned Litvinenko - assuming he didn't do it himself to gain sympathy or frame another - knew the effects that would ocvcur and didn't intend instant death. Like Yushenko perhaps, or the case of the 3 Rumanian Journalists who took 3 months to die after their desks were contaminated with plutonium dust left by the Securitate allegedly. So the lack of a kill does not necesdsarily eliminate FSB action.
    Why FSB? Why not Mossad, CIA, MI5, mafia, his wife, lover of his wife and so on?

    There are no reasons for Russia to kill him RIGHT NOW.

    IF FSB have killed Berezovsky or Zakaev I would not be sorry for him. One more rascal would died. But Litvinenko??? He was a ZERO, a large political ZERO.

    Maybe the suggestion of Berezovsky's agents has merit, though I don't understand the motive.
    Motive? Aren't you hearing the anti-Russian scream of your mass media?

    And yersterday Russian TV news said that

    1. a few days later the summit Russia-EU in Helsinki will be opened

    2. a few days ago Russian and British lawyers had a large progress in the agreement about the extradition rules between our countries.

    Who are afraid to be extradited? Berezovsky and Zakaev (representetive of the Chechen bandits in the West). They are "friends" of Litvinenko. Berezovsky not once was caught in his talkings about sacrificing some of his friends to blame FSB in it. What do you want to get more?

    Presumably the Russians Litvinenko breakfasted with are top of the suspect list. It is reported that one is ex KGB, now back in Moscow and willing to make a statement.
    What do you mean ex-KGB? KGB was closed in 1991.

    Perhaps the out of touch traitor Gordievsky is in the know this time? Interesting how language and opinion changes with different perspectives. The British saying is one man's meat is another man's poison(oops). So one man's conscience driven, courageous and knowledgeable defector is another man's criminal traitorous lunatic. Andrey did praise those who serve their countries in this area of work... Likewise the courageous freedom fighters called Taliban during the Soviet foray into Afganistan are now terrorists as they attack British Army in Helmand.
    I don't know about Gordievsky.

    But Litvinenko is a corrupt FSB official who betrayed his motherland and his duty. He was not serving to the Communists, he was serving in FSB of democratic Russia when he became a traitor.

    I'm with with pp(est) in that a bus flattening Litvinenko would not have caused suspicions about Russian involvement in the wat that the use of an exotic poison following a meeting with 2 Russians - one a former Security Officer have.
    Very good logic - two Russians met, one of them was a former FSB officer so it means the secnd one was an officer of FSB....

    I don't understand why Alex is so dismissive of Western European fear of Russian leadership exploiting West dependance on energy resources. Hasn't it already happened once? Why wouldn't a strong leader use the cards he has been dealt to favour his country?
    Why aren't the West is worring about the Arabian oil? As I know they raised oil prices in the 70s very significantly.

    To buy oil from the Arabs is OK and is not dangerous, to buy Russian gas is dangerous. Is it OK?

    I hope and expect that investigations will throw sufficient light on what has happened in this case, that, if there is insufficient evidence to prosecute, there will still be enough information for UK Government to remonstrate with any Governments or Agencies involved.
    Perhaps there are many Russian exiles in London and UK in general - not all football club owners who may be on hit-lists and vulnerable if such action is not taken.
    Those criminals have been speaking scorn of their Motherland for many years and are still alive. But now FSB decided for some reasons decided to check that wrong thing. And FSB decided to do it right now, during important negotiations with European Union. Isn't it a nonsense????

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    I feel the course of discussion will force me to close this thread soon.
    Simply I need more time for WWII subject and this topic becomes taking too much time from this pleasure

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    oh well, perhaps this is just another one of doc Sinister's nefarious plots...

    Killing friends to get sympathy... I can understand the concept of doing evil things to get an excuse to do something else, but sympathy?!? We western people tend to use ads with puppies and kids for that, sometimes little kittens too... You guys are just hilarious.
    It looks like you don't know history.

    The Nazies did the same when they invaded to Poland in 1939. They dressed a few SS-men in Polish military uniform and those SS-men attacked GERMAN radio-station in Gleivits to show to the World that the Poles did it.

    And Litvinenko is not Berezovsky's friend. Berezovky "bought" him some years ago. He is a venal FSB official.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Fascinating thread! Perhaps we should stick to discussing WW2?
    However, a few thoughts.
    I presume that whoever poisoned Litvinenko - assuming he didn't do it himself to gain sympathy or frame another - knew the effects that would ocvcur and didn't intend instant death. Like Yushenko perhaps, or the case of the 3 Rumanian Journalists who took 3 months to die after their desks were contaminated with plutonium dust left by the Securitate allegedly. So the lack of a kill does not necesdsarily eliminate FSB action.
    Maybe the suggestion of Berezovsky's agents has merit, though I don't understand the motive.
    Presumably the Russians Litvinenko breakfasted with are top of the suspect list. It is reported that one is ex KGB, now back in Moscow and willing to make a statement. Perhaps the out of touch traitor Gordievsky is in the know this time? Interesting how language and opinion changes with different perspectives. The British saying is one man's meat is another man's poison(oops). So one man's conscience driven, courageous and knowledgeable defector is another man's criminal traitorous lunatic. Andrey did praise those who serve their countries in this area of work... Likewise the courageous freedom fighters called Taliban during the Soviet foray into Afganistan are now terrorists as they attack British Army in Helmand.
    I'm with with pp(est) in that a bus flattening Litvinenko would not have caused suspicions about Russian involvement in the wat that the use of an exotic poison following a meeting with 2 Russians - one a former Security Officer have.
    I don't understand why Alex is so dismissive of Western European fear of Russian leadership exploiting West dependance on energy resources. Hasn't it already happened once? Why wouldn't a strong leader use the cards he has been dealt to favour his country?
    I hope and expect that investigations will throw sufficient light on what has happened in this case, that, if there is insufficient evidence to prosecute, there will still be enough information for UK Government to remonstrate with any Governments or Agencies involved.
    Perhaps there are many Russian exiles in London and UK in general - not all football club owners who may be on hit-lists and vulnerable if such action is not taken.
    BTW, maybe reports in UK of repressive legislation, closure of NGOs, elimination of dissidents/ opposition by means of exile, imprisonment, or death, in Russia, may be entirely inaccurate, and Putin may indeed be a good leader who has brought stability and economic progress as his fans on this site suggest. With my limited knowledge I can't form much of an opinion. History will be the judge perhaps. The 2008 elections may provide an indication of the true extent of democracy in Russia maybe?
    P.S. popular UK TV fiction series "Spooks" about MI5 usually has KGB types doing rather more clinical hits with several shots tro the head. Most of the programs have stories about corruption within the organisation and UK Government rather than plots from abroad - indicative of the loss of moral authority of the West in recent years?

    Leave a comment:


  • joea
    replied
    Oh well here it comes this and another thread or two:

    It's almost funny how you can't discuss even if you disagree, sorry guys.

    I will add, I wonder if enough credit is given to the Brits and Commonwealth over there in Russia (and the Free Poles, Czechs and French) for holding the line for a year alone. I am well aware of why the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, and am not trying to compare with what the Soviets faced on their front when it came (and it was the main front, many smart Westerners know that). Just musing. I also understand the mistakes made by the Western Powers before the war...too bad I wonder what would have happened had an effective collective security alliance been formed. I will finish the book I have started and discuss it here on another thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • pp(est)
    replied
    oh well, perhaps this is just another one of doc Sinister's nefarious plots...

    Killing friends to get sympathy... I can understand the concept of doing evil things to get an excuse to do something else, but sympathy?!? We western people tend to use ads with puppies and kids for that, sometimes little kittens too... You guys are just hilarious.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    I'm not Andrey, but I'll make some comments

    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    Andrey, I sincerely doubt if Litvinenko would have been in a car accident it would have caused any

    ruccus. I see no precedent for that. Can you find any example of the evil western mass media claiming that a car accident

    killing a Russian is handywork of KGB?
    So, you suppose western Intelligence has "reserved" car accidents for themselves and all cases of poisoning initially left

    for Russians, eh?
    Don't you think such a scenario is too primitive?
    Every serious secret service uses that ways to eliminate unnecessary people, which is more suitable for 100% guaranteed

    effect. (Only don't tell me that western services are so democratic to avoid this way. In necessity all dirty ways are well

    remembered by every secret service...).
    If secret service would like to poison anybody, be sure, he would be already dead...

    KGB/FSB/their lackies using poison for assasination - there is

    precedent
    It was a single case known in history...Btw it was initiative of bulgarian communists, but not KGB

    for that.
    This case is not proved. So, with the same probability we can assume both Litvinenko and Yushchenko were poisoned by

    Berezovsky. As both of them were connected with this evil figure this scenario is more than probable.
    Again, if secret services would like to poison anybody, he would be already dead...


    KGB/FSB using car bombs - there is precedent for that too.
    First of all Yandarbiev never was a president... Maybe only a president of his own ass...
    He never was elected by democratic elections, because in 1991-1999 there were no conditions for any elections.
    He was high-ranked terrorist.
    I think nobody here including yourself wouln't be against exploding Bin Laden even if he travelled in some large town, eh?
    In any case nobody proved it was work of FSB. All inculpatory evidences in that case were too weak

    Litvinenko was poisoned by unknown poison by unknown manner. Something which happens very rarely in this world and almost

    never without foul play being involved. Litvinenko just happened to be a defector, a vocal critic of Putin/FSB and

    investigating what happened to Politovskaya. I guess it was another case of poisoning by friends to get some sympathy going.

    Seriously, it might be that Putin wasn't directly involved (and he definitely has several layers of plausible denial), but it

    almost certainly was somebody close enough.
    Ja,ja... Who can poison poor traitor? Only evil FSB...There are nobody else in this world, who can do such a horrible

    crime....
    Btw, nearly the same Litvinenko told when Yushenkov - a leader of one small "democratic" party was killed in Moscow a few

    yeears ago. He flammably blamed FSB and personally Putin for doing this with all his arrogance.
    And what was found later? That Yushenkov's death was ordered by his brother-in-arms co-leader of the same party, but who had

    been controlled by Berezovsky. You see, who are fond of political murders?

    Andrey, everybody in Europe already knows Putin is effectively a dictator.
    Such a declaration must be proved.
    I can't see any proofs of this statement besides that silly stories, maiden by western mass media for housewives.

    Leave a comment:


  • kpush
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    I didn't expect to listen something other from you.

    Fortunately, you are not the voice of the whole Europe.
    pp(est) told about mythical "Europe" the same way as the "president of Chechnya"
    or the have two different Europs.

    IAE author put into use: "everybody" - universal quantifier so he has shift discussion farther from concrete.

    Leave a comment:


  • pp(est)
    replied
    Originally posted by kpush View Post
    - you have used this loose concept in 2 comments of this topick,
    it is intresting: Who is "president of Chechnya" as the concrect person (name and second name) on your opinion?
    uhh, my bad, I rushed ahead of things, I meant the chairman of the government or whats he calls himself now - Kadyrov.

    Andrey, yes I am but my own voice. The voice of Europe is the evil russophobic mass media.

    Leave a comment:


  • kpush
    replied
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    president of Chechnya.
    - you have used this loose concept in 2 comments of this topick,
    it is intresting: Who is "president of Chechnya" as the concrect person (name and second name) on your opinion?

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    Andrey, everybody in Europe already knows Putin is effectively a dictator. He could benefit by killing Politovskaya off at this moment to show any who might harbor thought of dissent what the west will do if he did use ultimate measures against his critics - the answer is absolutely nothing, something he knew and something we in the west know, but perhaps something some idealist in Russia didn't want to believe before. This is just hypothetical though - as I said I think a more likely suspect is that president of Chechnya.
    I didn't expect to listen something other from you.

    Fortunately, you are not the voice of the whole Europe.

    Leave a comment:

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