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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "Strong" - never thought it's so... Especially remembering recent words of a new Estonian Minister of Defense, who named "Russian thread" to be the main one
    Russia is our main threat, because it is weak and therefore unpredictable. Perhaps you think weak or strong in military terms. I think weak and strong in terms of the fibre of society, economy and political stability.

    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "Prosperious" - lets say enough prosperroues to sell enough raw resources and buy western goods..
    Prosperous as with the wealth of the country divided more equitably among the population so that the people would have a vested interest in maintaining stability. Prosperous so that we could benefit from good business ideas emerging from Russia's large population and we could market our good business ideas there.

    As it stands now Russian market has a very bad effect on us. While with few good conducts and a nice slush fund it is possible to make a lot of money there quickly it does not bring any added value to our economy as a whole. Businesses are totally corrupt in Russia and businessmen used to operate in Russia eventually try the same tricks here. I've seen it many times in my work. I always cheer then Russia imposes more restrictions on us, because it means our economy get's healthier. If Russia never imposed such restrictions to our trade with Russia as it did we would never managed to become the least corrupt nation in so-called New Europe and we wouldn't be seeing the economic growth we see now.


    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "democratic country where rule of law is upheld" - All the time I heard such phrases I think what regime can satisfy this creitera. And the answer always is "that one, which is controlled from abroad".
    When weak Yeltsin was the head of Russia it was called "democratic", but when strong Putin came, it immediately was declared to become "less democratic" (I used wuite soft term). In reality there were no democracy in Yeltsin's time. tere was regime close to anarchy....
    You are correct. Yeltsin's time was not democracy and it was not about the rule of law. It was a simple kleptocracy.

    Personally I felt it was a huge mistake by many western powers to give Yeltsin such unquestioning support. The difference between now and Yeltsin's time was that then there seemed to be at least some indication that things might be moving toward the democracy and rule of law direction. Many people thought that given time Russia would emerge from anarchy and become democracy. I lost hope of that sometime around 94-95 and unfortunately I was correct. With Putin so openly autocratic it is tough for even his best apologists to claim that Russia as it is now is somehow moving toward democracy.


    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    Well and what western leaders said when Russia applied market rules towards Ukraine? Who forced us to keep low prices for gas (the lowest in the world!) for this state? what a pressure was applied to Russia?
    Russia did not apply market rules to the situation in Ukraine. It applied political rules. The issue in Ukraine was that Russia changed the rules it was operating by for years due to results in Ukrainian elections. The pricing there (neither the price of gas nor the price of transferring gas through Ukraine) didn't and still does not have anything to do with market. BTW the problem is with both Ukraine and Russia. Both countries would benefit in the end if the price of gas would be based on market rules.

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    • Today famous Russian newspaper "Komsomolskaia Pravda" wrote about the interview of Egor Gaidar.

      Egor Gaidar is a leader of Russian Democrats.

      He was poisoned in Dublin a few days ago but survived.

      He said app. the following:

      "Only an idiot can suppose Russian rules tried to kill me. It was only a few days after the death of Litvinenko.

      Russian Nationalistic groups could try to kill me in Moscow but not in Dublin.

      I think the guys who tried to poison me are the people who try to embroil Russia with the other World, the forces for whom it is favorable to show Russia as a bad country"

      "

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
        Today famous Russian newspaper "Komsomolskaia Pravda" wrote about the interview of Egor Gaidar.

        Egor Gaidar:

        "Only an idiot can suppose Russian rules tried to kill me. It was only a few days after the death of Litvinenko.

        Russian Nationalistic groups could try to kill me in Moscow but not in Dublin.

        "
        He must be pretty naive!

        Why the delay in allowing interview of Lugovoi?

        Who poisoned Kovtun and maybe Lugovoi, or was it an accident?

        Is there an ultra sophisticated frame up, or a hit gone wrong because the perpetrators bungled the administration or didn't understand the nature of the substance?

        As I said before, it may be possible to solve "who dunnit", but who ordered it may be harder.

        Evidence is being collected all the time Alex. Polonium 210 was not a good choice of poison for the poisoner(s) to cover his/their tracks - hence traces in various hotel rooms and on aeroplanes, clinics, newsrooms that certain people have been in.... It looks very much lke it was administered in "The Pine Bar" of the Millenium Hotel - hence collateral damage to the bar staff.

        "Dignity and Honour" is not being characterised here as an extreme Nationalist group, but as a KGB / FSB Veterans' Group. It is said that Mr Putin was known to be one of about 3000 members a few years ago - maybe he still is?
        However it has been named as having Litvinenko, Scaramella, Berezovsky on a hit list. Its head, the previously mentioned Valentin Velichko, denouced Litvinenko as a traiter but denied playing any role in the murder. (He found religion in India and doesn't believe in personal retribution. Hmmm.) He states D&H is "dedicated to the spiritual revival of Russia by combating a decline in moral values." There is a branch in London allegedly! Why? How many non-defecting Russian Security Service staff are resident here now?

        (I do understand that Litvinenko was considered a non-entity in Russia, and that many Russians believe that this is the work of Putin's enemies in an attempt to discredit him and Russia.)

        As has been said: let's be patient.

        Comment


        • Today Russian TV (TV Channel Russia) showed a sunday's documentary movie.

          It was about attempts of US intelligence to enlist Russian citizens in USA.

          It contained a lot of facts and concrete names.

          A real audio-record of such enlisting was shown to Russian spectators,.

          The main idea was following: We are Allies in anti-terrorist coalition but US actions looks like actions to a hostile country. In the 90th Russians stopped to think about Americans as about enemies. But it looks like Americans continue to treat Russia like it still continues to be the communist USSR.

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          • And Russians haven't been enlisting Americans and |British since the 90s?!
            I presume the Security Services of all Nations are always seeking contacts - in friendly nations as well as potential aggressor countries.
            The device disguised as a stone in a Moscow park was allegedly placed by British Agents to contact ron-governmental organisations in Russia, that are, by Western standards, repressed by the Government. Whether it is Western paranoia about a strong Russia, or concern about a weakening in democratic processes and big business / Government corruption in Russia, I would have thought it prudent to maintain intelligence networks despite co-operation in the "War against Terror".
            Returning to the topic:
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wpoison10.xml
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wpoison110.xml
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wpoison210.xml
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wrussia10.xml
            I do not think the Chief Prosecutor will stop the truth emerging in this case. The apparent lack of wholehearted co-operation speaks volumes about the way Russia is governed.
            Contrast that with the on-going "Cash for Honours" investigation in the UK.
            (BTW I'm not claiming that the UK is the most wonderful place to live in...)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
              And Russians haven't been enlisting Americans and |British since the 90s?!
              I presume the Security Services of all Nations are always seeking contacts - in friendly nations as well as potential aggressor countries.
              The device disguised as a stone in a Moscow park was allegedly placed by British Agents to contact ron-governmental organisations in Russia, that are, by Western standards, repressed by the Government. Whether it is Western paranoia about a strong Russia, or concern about a weakening in democratic processes and big business / Government corruption in Russia, I would have thought it prudent to maintain intelligence networks despite co-operation in the "War against Terror".
              I don't believe it would be considered OK for UK if the Britishes knew that US secret services tried to enlist 50 British officials who had access to British secret information and openly spied on British Embassy in Washington.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                Russia is our main threat, because it is weak and therefore unpredictable. Perhaps you think weak or strong in military terms. I think weak and strong in terms of the fibre of society, economy and political stability...
                ...With Putin so openly autocratic it is tough for even his best apologists to claim that Russia as it is now is somehow moving toward democracy...

                1) well, tell me when russia wasn't that way - since the days of old she's unstable as she'll always be. so unlucky you then, poor estonians, doomed to ever exist near a "weak-strong" neighbouring country.
                let me express my condolences on this.

                2) democracy-schlemocracy you say?
                down with it!
                whether the democracy is a must for every state?!
                we better build some more appropriate (for russia) model of society.
                anyways, out here - it's not the europe, you know...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by stalin View Post
                  1) well, tell me when russia wasn't that way - since the days of old she's unstable as she'll always be. so unlucky you then, poor estonians, doomed to ever exist near a "weak-strong" neighbouring country.
                  let me express my condolences on this.

                  2) democracy-schlemocracy you say?
                  down with it!
                  whether the democracy is a must for every state?!
                  we better build some more appropriate (for russia) model of society.
                  anyways, out here - it's not the europe, you know...
                  Vasilevskii has spoken. It's not just the next-door neighbours who need worry!
                  But to the thread: Scotland Yard Detectives have ended their stay in Russia and will report to the prosecuting authority of England - the CPS. It will be interesting to see in due course whether there is evidence to apply for extradition of anyone. Did one or more of the 3 visiting Russians bungle, or were they framed? Since the Russian Chief Prosecutor has already ruled extradition out, if there is evidence, do we think ther will be a trial in Russia?
                  The latest ex-spy to come out of the woodwork suggests a new motive for killing Litvinenko - he had prepared a dossier on a Russian busiessman and Kremlin insider for a Western company considering doing business with this person. It is said that the contents were enough to stop a big deal being made, and had potential for major embarrassment and even blackmail opportunities. Too many spies confuse the story!
                  More polonium contaminated people have been found in London.
                  Little of the affair in UK news lately due to many other big stories but I think it will return with a vengeance yet.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                    Too many spies confuse the story!
                    1 FORMER spies. It is not the same.

                    2 I don't know what you mean spy.

                    In Russian "spy" equals to "shpion", it means "an agent of foreign hostile intelligence service". Friendly or own "spies" are called "razvedchik".

                    But in any case it is about the people who work in a foreign coutry to search for secret information.

                    Litvinenko NEVER was a "razvedchik" and I think it is right about all others who are mentioned in this case.

                    They worked in FSB but they were equal to US FBI agents, as I understand.

                    Little of the affair in UK news lately due to many other big stories but I think it will return with a vengeance yet.
                    It is what the organizers of all this provocation want.

                    The investigation will continue but the ordinary public will lose interest to it. They will remember only one in their minds: "Evil Putin's regime killed a dissident in London. Oh, those evil Russians!"

                    If a few weeks later the Police define that it was Berezovsky who had done all this the mass media will write a few rows about it...

                    There is a Russian anecdote:

                    "Ater a party.

                    1: Hey, after you left us yesterday we found that a few silver spoons were stolen. Give them back!

                    2: We didn't take your spoons!

                    1: You went away and they were stolen. Those were you who stole them!

                    2: It is wrong, we didn't take your spoons.

                    A week later.

                    2: Hi, how are you?

                    1: Oh, hi!

                    2: Is there anything new about the spoons?

                    1: Yes. The spoons were found. But the feeling of resentment (after-pains?) about you stayed."
                    Last edited by Andrey; 20 Dec 06, 19:26.

                    Comment


                    • Well... I made a pause with interest observing the situation around that "Polonium hysteria"

                      Still too many questions remains....
                      First of all who needed to kill (if so) such a small figure as Litvinenko.
                      Sorry, I can't accept version of FSB.
                      FSB was not interested in doing this at least by these reasons.
                      i) As I have already said Litvinanko was too small figure
                      ii) Even if some operation for murder was approved by FSB they will never start from Litvinenko. there are plenty of other candidates living only in GB to start with
                      iii) Any Intelligence would use radioactive material (either Polonium, or other one) only if it wanted to leave as many traces, as it could.
                      Sorry, but I couldn't notice suicidal trends in FSB
                      iv) If Intelligence would like to use assasins to kill somebody, be sure it would be person, who had never been known as a man connected with it.
                      Sorry that many of westerners misses this obvious thing.
                      Murder is very serious operation and if such one is prepared be sure it's prepared not by idiots.
                      v) As I have heard Litvinenko caught a portion of Polonium which costs $10,000,000... What do you think about efficiency of such a "golden" way of murder? If it was I to prepare some murder having such a sum I would prefer to buy a good rifle with optic sign, or a truck filled with explosives for guaranteed effect (Don't treat me as potential killer, it's only guess )
                      And I would save much money for myself.
                      Usage of such an exotic way tells that
                      1) Enough rich people are staying behind this case.
                      2) They tried to make as much traces leading to Russia, as they can.
                      More traces they could make only if assassin had walked along the Baker-street with a big slogan "I'm from Russia".

                      So, I can summarise all said above.
                      Only narrow-minded person can be sure Litvinenko was kiled by FSB.
                      I can't exclude both death of Litvinenko was ordered by Russian (including those, who lives in GB) and nobody to kill him.
                      Still nobody rejected version that Litvinenko could be poisoned due to unsafe operations with Polonium container (either himself, or his mates)...

                      So, monitoring of situation is in progress....
                      Regards,
                      Alex
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        1 FORMER spies. It is not the same.
                        Remembered old joke:

                        'A spy can't become former spy. He can become dead spy.'

                        on topic?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rambow View Post
                          Remembered old joke:

                          'A spy can't become former spy. He can become dead spy.'

                          on topic?
                          On topic. Andrey, "Spies" used by me loosely. More apt would have been term "spooks" to denote all members of the "intelligence community" past and present ie those in counter-intelligence - FSB? - as well as those who spy abroad. I believe the FBI are more Police than Security Service but I don't know for sure.
                          I don't know how much the polonium cost Alex, but I agree it could have been done by cheaper means. A local with a knife would have done it for a fix of crack or heroin. The method must have been in the plan - to be tracked / to make it a long and nasty end / to discourage others/ to provoke anti Russian Government feeling? I still think we will find who took the spoons, but who for? As the Police will say, they are keeping an open mind about all possibilities - including accident / martyrship of Litvenenko, but I don't think that is too likely really, do you?
                          I agree there are lots of unanswered questions. Keep monitoring!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                            On topic. Andrey, "Spies" used by me loosely. More apt would have been term "spooks" to denote all members of the "intelligence community" past and present ie those in counter-intelligence - FSB? - as well as those who spy abroad. I believe the FBI are more Police than Security Service but I don't know for sure.
                            Russian FSB is more close to US FBI. Russian FSB operates mainly in the territory of Russia. Its tasks are to fight against terrorists, foreign spies, powerful organized criminal groups and so on.

                            Russia has SVR (Sluzhba Vneshnei Razvedki) "Outer Intelligence Service". It is close to US CIA. The most of the Russian "spies" serve in SVR.

                            Litvinenko and the others served in FSB and not in SVR.

                            The method must have been in the plan - to be tracked / to make it a long and nasty end / to discourage others/ to provoke anti Russian Government feeling?
                            The best way for Russian rules to intimidate "the political refugees" was to kill Berezovsky. And it was not necessary to use 10,000,000$ polonium for this.

                            I still think we will find who took the spoons, but who for?
                            The meaning of the anekdote is not who stole spoons.

                            The meaning is that a few honest persons were blamed in a bad deed. It occurred later that they had not been guilty but their good names had been defiled before the spoons were found.

                            Comment


                            • Today "Komsomolskaia Pravda" wrote an interview with Sergei Stepashin, a well-known politician.

                              One of the questions was about Litvinenko case.

                              Stepashin said that Litvinenko was Berezovsky's puppet, he was a traitor. The correspondent asked to explain what Stepashin meant.

                              Stepashin said the following. In 1995 he was the Chief of FSK (in 1995 FSB was called FSK). In that time Vlad Listiev, a very famous and popular Russian TV-reporter, was killed. Eltsin ordered to FSK to investigate the murder. FSK in vestigated it and found that Berezovsky was related to the murder. FSK was ready to arrest Berezovsky but Berezovsky was informed by somebody about the investigation. So Berezovsky assumed some measures and his arrest was canceled. Stepashin said that the person who had given to Berezovsky the secret information was Litvinenko.

                              Comment


                              • now that scaramello is detained by the police, western mass-media and scotland yard must be looking quite stupid for their allegations against russia and her fsb.









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