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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    Both Stalin and Hitler enjoyed huge popularity too. Still both were murderers. So, what's your point?
    Both Hitler and Stalin obtained all means of Propaganda (i.e. mass-media)
    Unlike them Putin can't affect on a wide range of mass-media including foreign radio-stations and TV channels here as well as on the Internet resources...
    Nothing similar with politics of that two historical figures you named here, even if somebody would like to make some parallels....
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
      Both Stalin and Hitler enjoyed huge popularity too. Still both were murderers. So, what's your point?
      In Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Germany to not be an admire of Stalin or Hitler equaled to make a suicide.

      In modern Russia people have not got reasons to be afraid of showing their senses about their leader.

      Comment


      • #93
        A standing ovation for Mr Putin? Ok, as has been posted here, a strong leader who has brought economic stability. How well are Russians informed about the daily disclosures here in the UK? If they do know, but are as dismissive and lacking in concern and suspicion about possible involvement of their Government and Security Services as Alex and Andrey, then I am amazed and disturbed. See articles from one UK main newspaper:
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npoison102.xml
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../npoison02.xml
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../npoison01.xml

        Nothing proven yet of course, but evidence is mounting and pointing towards those responsible coming from Moscow. If "Dignity and Honour" or any of the other named groups are involved, the big question is whether there was official knowledge and sanction for the action. Keep watching this space!

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Dave T View Post
          A standing ovation for Mr Putin? Ok, as has been posted here, a strong leader who has brought economic stability. How well are Russians informed about the daily disclosures here in the UK? If they do know, but are as dismissive and lacking in concern and suspicion about possible involvement of their Government and Security Services as Alex and Andrey, then I am amazed and disturbed. See articles from one UK main newspaper:
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npoison102.xml
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../npoison02.xml
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../npoison01.xml

          Nothing proven yet of course, but evidence is mounting and pointing towards those responsible coming from Moscow. If "Dignity and Honour" or any of the other named groups are involved, the big question is whether there was official knowledge and sanction for the action. Keep watching this space!
          It is mixture of truth and lie.

          There is an Association of Veterans of Special Services. It is not a terroris organization, it is how it is called. It contained very good men.

          There is Gen. Ivashov whose position is that Russia should have powerfull armed forces and independent foreign policy. He warns about anti-Russian Western policy, he speaks: "Take care with the West." So what?

          Yes, there is (there was!) Patriotic movement 'Motherland'. A few weeks ago it combined with "Party of Life" of Sergei Mironov, a famous senator, Putin's follower. So what?

          Yes, there was an attemp to kill Chubais, one of the famous leaders of "the Democrats". Really, it was done by a few officers od security service. Tey were caught, there was a judge over them. If Gen. Ivashov was connected to them, he would be arrested.

          A pair words about Chubais. Chibais was responsible for privatisation. Chubais promised to everyone that they would live well a few years later. In the result state plants and factories were sold to crime groups and to the people who became oligarchs a few years later. Millions of ordinary Russians stayed poor in the spite of Chubais' promises.

          There was a large scandal in the 90th when a few "Democrats" including Chubais wrote to Western readers a relatively small book "The History of Russian privatisation". They got VERY much money for that. There was a strong opinion that it was a type of bribe from the West to those guys.

          Then Chubais became the Main Chief of Russian Energetic System.

          What he did? He ordered to cut off the consumers who didn't pay.

          The Russians live in many-flat houses (5- or 9- floors usually) mainly. In the Soviet time some houses were municipal property, some - property of state plants. The people didn't see difference and lived by ordinary life.

          But here the USSR collapsed.

          It was the time of huge disaster for many people.

          Many large plants especially military ones collapsed or began to languish in poverty. They had no money to pay wages abd of course had no money to pay for the apartment houses that were considered their property. But people who lived in those houses were not guilty in that situation!

          Chubais ordered to cut off appartment houses!

          Sometimes army units and structures had no money to pay for electricity. The state didn't give them money! Russian Energetic System also is a state enterprise and should to serve for the state at first. But in the case of militaries Chubais also ordered to cut off military units if they didn't pay.

          What happened after that? Russian newspapers wrote a sad story about a young woman. She was being operated in a military hospital in Far East when Chubais' subordinates suddenly cut off the hospital from electricity. The hospital didn't pay for electricity. The operating-room suddenly was cut off from electricity, darkness falled. In the result the woman DIED. Russian newspapers printed the photo of that pretty young woman. She had a husband who loved her very much.

          Chubais' people cut off a Division of nuclear strategic submarines of the Pacific Fleet in the Kamchatka. Those were NUCLEAR submarines with NUCLEAR MISSILES!

          Chubais' people cut off the MAIN Russian center of monitoring of the threat of enemy missile attack. Russia was completely defenseless from enemy missile launches for a few hours.

          The amount of ordinary military units that were cut off is countless. Imagine, that barracks with soldiers stayed without heating in the conditions of a Russian winter!

          In such conditions the commanders of such military units not once ordered to their soldiers to capture the electrical substations which gave them electricity and to not let for Chibais' people to cut off the electricity from their units.

          Were those militaries guilty that the State didn't pay to another State Enterprise for electricity? Chubais should understand the situation aned the result of his actions!!!!

          And all those actions happened FOR A FEW YEARS. One scandal followed another one. Here central Russian TV showed that a military unit was cut off from electricity, the government ordered to switch on the electricity and to not do such actions in future and some time later the situation repeated.

          So a lot of Russian people HATE Chubais for the catastrophic results of the privatisation and for his policy when he was the Main Chief of Russian Energetic System. Chubais is the man who promised good life for everyone but cheated the people (HE decided HOW to do the privatisation), Chubais is the man who is guilty in the fact that a lot of people (especially in Far East) stayed without heating in cold winter conditions in buildings that have no other types of heating!!!

          Many people suppose that Chubais is a man who didn't think about Russia, trhe man who is a puppet of foreign forces who caused a lot of damage to Russia.

          So a lot of people have a lot of reasons to try to revenge to Chubais.

          A group of officers (former???) of secret services under the comand of Col. Kvachkov decided to kill Chubais. They were not related to official Russian rules, they really were connected to one of Russian extremist national group.

          But neither Gen Ivashov nor the Assosiation of veterans of secret services nor Russian rules were related to that.

          I want to say that Russian TV every day speaks fresh news about the case of Litvinenko's murder.

          Putin promised to order to FSB to help to British police if it would ask about it.

          But the "main British newspaper" is not simple truth for the Russians especially after all that trash that had been printed in Western mass media.

          Comment


          • #95
            Interesting stuff Andrey. Where is Chubais now?
            As for the Western press containing trash on the subject, I don't think that is the case with the paper in my links. You say it is a mixture of truth and lies. Facts and speculation I would say. What do you suggest they have deliberately stated knowing it to be untrue?
            It has been announced that 9 Metropolitan Police Officers are to fly to Moscow to make enqiries with the assistance of the authorities. Let's see how they get on.
            Today's paper quotes Col Valentin Velichko of the Dignity and Honour group as saying "We will punish those who rob Russia and the Russian People".
            I have little knowledge of Russia in the 90s when oligarchs made their billions and power cuts were being made, but can understand that feelings run deep and there may be great desire to seek revenge against those involved - as well as against traitors / detectors and dissident exiles who wage campaigns against Putin. However, if such feelings lead to murders on foreign soil, and groups threatening such action go unchecked, the expect Russia's reputation to suffer accordingly.
            BTW, it is reported that Khodorkovsky has had a Moscow Court refuse to hear his appeal against sentence for "tax evasion" so he is stuck in Krasnokamensk for another 5 years. .
            It is also reported that the Russian Government is not averse to making unexpected tax demands on Western Oil companies in what seems to be blackmail.
            This will perhaps encourage other oligarchs in Russia to keep a low profile or join the exodus to London.
            When will the West first experience a cut in power from Russia like Ukraine did last winter?
            Is Russia strong, independent and democratically ruled or is it a bully with a repressive regime and out of control crime groups and security services. I don't know enough to even venture an opinion, but the Litvinenko affair will contribute greatly to Westerners tending towards the latter view if it is not cleared up in coming weeks.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Dave T View Post
              Interesting stuff Andrey. Where is Chubais now?
              Chubais is a Chief Manager of Russian Energetic System now.

              As for the Western press containing trash on the subject, I don't think that is the case with the paper in my links. You say it is a mixture of truth and lies. Facts and speculation I would say. What do you suggest they have deliberately stated knowing it to be untrue?
              They at least show patriotic movements as extremist nationalistic parties.

              It is completely incorrect.

              It has been announced that 9 Metropolitan Police Officers are to fly to Moscow to make enqiries with the assistance of the authorities. Let's see how they get on.
              They still don't fly but it looks like you have doubts that the Russian rules wil cooperate....

              Today's paper quotes Col Valentin Velichko of the Dignity and Honour group as saying "We will punish those who rob Russia and the Russian People".
              I don't know who is Col Velichko. He isn't known in Russia to wide public.

              I can see another scenario - Berezovsky gave money to another Russian traitor to make sensational declarations about non-existing radical groups. I wonder why the Western mass media don't discuss such version.

              And even if (IF!!!) such group exists so how Putin is connected with them???? Any country has own crazy radicals. Why didn't the West blame Saudi Arabia rules for Bin Laden's actions?

              I have little knowledge of Russia in the 90s when oligarchs made their billions and power cuts were being made, but can understand that feelings run deep and there may be great desire to seek revenge against those involved - as well as against traitors / detectors and dissident exiles who wage campaigns against Putin. However, if such feelings lead to murders on foreign soil, and groups threatening such action go unchecked, the expect Russia's reputation to suffer accordingly.
              How is Putin connectd to it????

              BTW, it is reported that Khodorkovsky has had a Moscow Court refuse to hear his appeal against sentence for "tax evasion" so he is stuck in Krasnokamensk for another 5 years. .
              You can't imagine how MUCH money he didn't pay.

              Al Capone was sent to a prison for much lower money.

              It is also reported that the Russian Government is not averse to making unexpected tax demands on Western Oil companies in what seems to be blackmail.
              If you speak about the situation on the Sakhalin so the Russian TV shows the situation so.

              In the 90th Russian Government gave to a Western Oil Company (don't remember its name right now) the right to build Gas Plant in the Sakhalin. Sakhalin is in Far-East, it has very difficult connections to cebtral Russia.

              The conditions were the following:
              - Russia will pay ALL the money which the Oil Company would spent to build the plants,
              - the Oil Company was to build infrasructure of Sakhalin (to build roads, bridges, telephone wire lines and so on),
              - the Oil Company was to provide maximum protection for Sakhalin's ecology.

              All this was signed in the 90th.

              Now the Oil Company have almost finished the works and said to Russian rules: "Hey, guys, we have almost finished it, But there is a small problem. We planned to spend 10 billions dollars. But we really spent 15 billions dollars. We have an agreement so you are to pay us 15 billions dollars instead of 10."
              [I don't remember the exact numbers so I wrote the numbers approximately. The scale is appoximately correct]

              The Russian rukes said: "What? Are you demanding we to pay 5 billion dollars more, one and a half times more? Why didn't you say about it earlier? Why didn'y you adjust those additional spendings with us earlier?"

              And the Russian rules decided to check what is going on on Sakhalin.

              What they saw!

              The ecology is damaged significantly, the oil company didn't provide all the necessary efforts to protect it. Russian TV showed pictures of dead fish on the coast of Sakhalin.

              A Russian minister a few times asked the Western oil company's chief to confirm the fact of the damage to the ecology. In the end the chief confirmed it befoe public.

              The Sakhalin's infrastructure was built ONLY in the region of the gas plant but it was not built in the other regions of the Sakhalin.

              There are a lot of questions about the additional spendings. Of course, it is easy to spend money if it is known that foregn government will pay it later.

              But Western mass media began the scream about totlitarian regime, struggle against freedom, economical pressure when Russian rules began to look what is going on on Sakhalin...

              This will perhaps encourage other oligarchs in Russia to keep a low profile or join the exodus to London.
              The oligarchs who are making legal business now live OK in Russia.

              When will the West first experience a cut in power from Russia like Ukraine did last winter?
              The Ukraine parasitized on cheap Russian gas and had anti-Russian policy. Th Russian government didn't want more to support the hostile regime by cheap gas (a few times cheaper then to Europe).

              But the Ukraine refused to pay and began to stole some gas which was the property of other European countries.

              If Europe is ready to pay money for the Ukraine for doing gas cheap to its cinsumers, let you do it. Russian people don't want to do it.

              During the Cold War the USSR sent gas to Europe and there were no problems in the spite of the fact it was the Cold War.

              Is Russia strong, independent and democratically ruled or is it a bully with a repressive regime and out of control crime groups and security services. I don't know enough to even venture an opinion, but the Litvinenko affair will contribute greatly to Westerners tending towards the latter view if it is not cleared up in coming weeks.
              The West do all that it is possible to do Russia weak, dependent country with corrupted rules which would be Western puppets. Here what the Russians think. And all this trash in Western mass media only increase its impression.

              Comment


              • #97
                Thank you for continuing to set out the Russian perspective on these issues Andrey, to balance up what I'm reading here.
                Yes, I did have some doubts about how much co-operation would be forthcoming from the Russian Authorities to the Met Police Officers now in Moscow.
                Perhaps these doubts were warranted considering the Russian Chief Prosecutor's announcements that only his staff will be allowed to question witnesses and suspects for the Met, and that no one will be extradited to face trial in the UK - any trial to take place in Russia, and that the Met would be better advised to continue investigations in London because exiles are behind it. Let's keep an open mind shall we?
                It is reported here that Lugovoi is in hospital, possible suffering effects of exposure to radiation. Perhaps he has been "framed" by those exiles....
                The British embassy is being checked to see if any visitor has left traces of polonium 210.
                I am getting the impression that those responsible for actually poisoning Litvinenko will be identified. Tracing those who ordered it may be more difficult - whether State, Patriotic Group, Russian Exiles, ex- FSB, organised crime group - but not insurmountable.
                Intersting stuff about Sakhalin. The companies mentioned here were Shell and BP - though there may be others. There are usually at least 2 sides to any story...

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                  Thank you for continuing to set out the Russian perspective on these issues Andrey, to balance up what I'm reading here.
                  Yes, I did have some doubts about how much co-operation would be forthcoming from the Russian Authorities to the Met Police Officers now in Moscow.
                  Perhaps these doubts were warranted considering the Russian Chief Prosecutor's announcements that only his staff will be allowed to question witnesses and suspects for the Met, and that no one will be extradited to face trial in the UK - any trial to take place in Russia, and that the Met would be better advised to continue investigations in London because exiles are behind it. Let's keep an open mind shall we?
                  Imagine that Russian Police (Police of Moscow that is app. equals to your Met Police) demands from UK to come in Britain and to interrogate everyone it wants...

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Yes, Andrey, that's what normally happens. No power to arrest / detain suspects, but freedom to go and speak to potential witnesses, to take statements of evidence. UK Police do go abroad to do this and not just in serious cases. Foreign Forces can come to the UK to carry out investigations and have direct liaison with local Officers to assist them. Unlike the the press, I don't read anything sinister in the Chief Prosecutor's decision - it is presumably just the Russian way. It might not assist the search for the truth however.
                    It is now reported that Polonium traces are found in the British Embassy in Moscow. Another scenaro implicating British Security Services as in the death of Princess Diana will doubtless be put forward...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                      Yes, Andrey, that's what normally happens. No power to arrest / detain suspects, but freedom to go and speak to potential witnesses, to take statements of evidence. UK Police do go abroad to do this and not just in serious cases. Foreign Forces can come to the UK to carry out investigations and have direct liaison with local Officers to assist them. Unlike the the press, I don't read anything sinister in the Chief Prosecutor's decision - it is presumably just the Russian way. It might not assist the search for the truth however.
                      It is now reported that Polonium traces are found in the British Embassy in Moscow. Another scenaro implicating British Security Services as in the death of Princess Diana will doubtless be put forward...
                      If Russian Police asked to come to UK and to interrogate everyone it wants so all the British mass media would screamed in hysteric.

                      If US, French or German police did the same all would be OK.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                        If Russian Police asked to come to UK and to interrogate everyone it wants so all the British mass media would screamed in hysteric.

                        If US, French or German police did the same all would be OK.
                        Do I sense a feeling of paranoia ??
                        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                          The West do all that it is possible to do Russia weak, dependent country with corrupted rules which would be Western puppets. Here what the Russians think. And all this trash in Western mass media only increase its impression.
                          In reality most in the west wish Russia to be strong, prosperous, democratic country where rule of law is upheld. This would make Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules. Russia holds huge potential and it is such a shame to see it wasted like it is now.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                            In reality most in the west wish Russia to be strong, prosperous, democratic country where rule of law is upheld. This would make Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules. Russia holds huge potential and it is such a shame to see it wasted like it is now.
                            All that phrases are lie!
                            "Strong" - never thought it's so... Especially remembering recent words of a new Estonian Minister of Defense, who named "Russian thread" to be the main one

                            "Prosperious" - lets say enough prosperroues to sell enough raw resources and buy western goods..

                            "democratic country where rule of law is upheld" - All the time I heard such phrases I think what regime can satisfy this creitera. And the answer always is "that one, which is controlled from abroad".
                            When weak Yeltsin was the head of Russia it was called "democratic", but when strong Putin came, it immediately was declared to become "less democratic" (I used wuite soft term). In reality there were no democracy in Yeltsin's time. tere was regime close to anarchy....And all western leaders greeted such a state of Russia...
                            But lets stop here

                            "Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules."
                            Well and what western leaders said when Russia applied market rules towards Ukraine? Who forced us to keep low prices for gas (the lowest in the world!) for this state? what a pressure was applied to Russia?

                            but lets stop here, I'm not interested to be involved in long off-topic dispute...
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                              Do I sense a feeling of paranoia ??
                              Read Western newspapers and you'll see what paranoia...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                                Read Western newspapers and you'll see what paranoia...
                                It's hysteria!
                                Still NO evidences were found and lots of blamings towards Russia can be seen in western mass-media!

                                A mechanism of rumors and supposings has replaced elementary logic..

                                What I can suggest now, is to be patient and to wait....
                                Last edited by amvas; 07 Dec 06, 09:46.
                                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                                Comment

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