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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • Dave T
    replied
    And Russians haven't been enlisting Americans and |British since the 90s?!
    I presume the Security Services of all Nations are always seeking contacts - in friendly nations as well as potential aggressor countries.
    The device disguised as a stone in a Moscow park was allegedly placed by British Agents to contact ron-governmental organisations in Russia, that are, by Western standards, repressed by the Government. Whether it is Western paranoia about a strong Russia, or concern about a weakening in democratic processes and big business / Government corruption in Russia, I would have thought it prudent to maintain intelligence networks despite co-operation in the "War against Terror".
    Returning to the topic:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wpoison10.xml
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wpoison110.xml
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wpoison210.xml
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wrussia10.xml
    I do not think the Chief Prosecutor will stop the truth emerging in this case. The apparent lack of wholehearted co-operation speaks volumes about the way Russia is governed.
    Contrast that with the on-going "Cash for Honours" investigation in the UK.
    (BTW I'm not claiming that the UK is the most wonderful place to live in...)

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Today Russian TV (TV Channel Russia) showed a sunday's documentary movie.

    It was about attempts of US intelligence to enlist Russian citizens in USA.

    It contained a lot of facts and concrete names.

    A real audio-record of such enlisting was shown to Russian spectators,.

    The main idea was following: We are Allies in anti-terrorist coalition but US actions looks like actions to a hostile country. In the 90th Russians stopped to think about Americans as about enemies. But it looks like Americans continue to treat Russia like it still continues to be the communist USSR.

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  • Dave T
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    Today famous Russian newspaper "Komsomolskaia Pravda" wrote about the interview of Egor Gaidar.

    Egor Gaidar:

    "Only an idiot can suppose Russian rules tried to kill me. It was only a few days after the death of Litvinenko.

    Russian Nationalistic groups could try to kill me in Moscow but not in Dublin.

    "
    He must be pretty naive!

    Why the delay in allowing interview of Lugovoi?

    Who poisoned Kovtun and maybe Lugovoi, or was it an accident?

    Is there an ultra sophisticated frame up, or a hit gone wrong because the perpetrators bungled the administration or didn't understand the nature of the substance?

    As I said before, it may be possible to solve "who dunnit", but who ordered it may be harder.

    Evidence is being collected all the time Alex. Polonium 210 was not a good choice of poison for the poisoner(s) to cover his/their tracks - hence traces in various hotel rooms and on aeroplanes, clinics, newsrooms that certain people have been in.... It looks very much lke it was administered in "The Pine Bar" of the Millenium Hotel - hence collateral damage to the bar staff.

    "Dignity and Honour" is not being characterised here as an extreme Nationalist group, but as a KGB / FSB Veterans' Group. It is said that Mr Putin was known to be one of about 3000 members a few years ago - maybe he still is?
    However it has been named as having Litvinenko, Scaramella, Berezovsky on a hit list. Its head, the previously mentioned Valentin Velichko, denouced Litvinenko as a traiter but denied playing any role in the murder. (He found religion in India and doesn't believe in personal retribution. Hmmm.) He states D&H is "dedicated to the spiritual revival of Russia by combating a decline in moral values." There is a branch in London allegedly! Why? How many non-defecting Russian Security Service staff are resident here now?

    (I do understand that Litvinenko was considered a non-entity in Russia, and that many Russians believe that this is the work of Putin's enemies in an attempt to discredit him and Russia.)

    As has been said: let's be patient.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Today famous Russian newspaper "Komsomolskaia Pravda" wrote about the interview of Egor Gaidar.

    Egor Gaidar is a leader of Russian Democrats.

    He was poisoned in Dublin a few days ago but survived.

    He said app. the following:

    "Only an idiot can suppose Russian rules tried to kill me. It was only a few days after the death of Litvinenko.

    Russian Nationalistic groups could try to kill me in Moscow but not in Dublin.

    I think the guys who tried to poison me are the people who try to embroil Russia with the other World, the forces for whom it is favorable to show Russia as a bad country"

    "

    Leave a comment:


  • pp(est)
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "Strong" - never thought it's so... Especially remembering recent words of a new Estonian Minister of Defense, who named "Russian thread" to be the main one
    Russia is our main threat, because it is weak and therefore unpredictable. Perhaps you think weak or strong in military terms. I think weak and strong in terms of the fibre of society, economy and political stability.

    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "Prosperious" - lets say enough prosperroues to sell enough raw resources and buy western goods..
    Prosperous as with the wealth of the country divided more equitably among the population so that the people would have a vested interest in maintaining stability. Prosperous so that we could benefit from good business ideas emerging from Russia's large population and we could market our good business ideas there.

    As it stands now Russian market has a very bad effect on us. While with few good conducts and a nice slush fund it is possible to make a lot of money there quickly it does not bring any added value to our economy as a whole. Businesses are totally corrupt in Russia and businessmen used to operate in Russia eventually try the same tricks here. I've seen it many times in my work. I always cheer then Russia imposes more restrictions on us, because it means our economy get's healthier. If Russia never imposed such restrictions to our trade with Russia as it did we would never managed to become the least corrupt nation in so-called New Europe and we wouldn't be seeing the economic growth we see now.


    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    "democratic country where rule of law is upheld" - All the time I heard such phrases I think what regime can satisfy this creitera. And the answer always is "that one, which is controlled from abroad".
    When weak Yeltsin was the head of Russia it was called "democratic", but when strong Putin came, it immediately was declared to become "less democratic" (I used wuite soft term). In reality there were no democracy in Yeltsin's time. tere was regime close to anarchy....
    You are correct. Yeltsin's time was not democracy and it was not about the rule of law. It was a simple kleptocracy.

    Personally I felt it was a huge mistake by many western powers to give Yeltsin such unquestioning support. The difference between now and Yeltsin's time was that then there seemed to be at least some indication that things might be moving toward the democracy and rule of law direction. Many people thought that given time Russia would emerge from anarchy and become democracy. I lost hope of that sometime around 94-95 and unfortunately I was correct. With Putin so openly autocratic it is tough for even his best apologists to claim that Russia as it is now is somehow moving toward democracy.


    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    Well and what western leaders said when Russia applied market rules towards Ukraine? Who forced us to keep low prices for gas (the lowest in the world!) for this state? what a pressure was applied to Russia?
    Russia did not apply market rules to the situation in Ukraine. It applied political rules. The issue in Ukraine was that Russia changed the rules it was operating by for years due to results in Ukrainian elections. The pricing there (neither the price of gas nor the price of transferring gas through Ukraine) didn't and still does not have anything to do with market. BTW the problem is with both Ukraine and Russia. Both countries would benefit in the end if the price of gas would be based on market rules.

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  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    Read Western newspapers and you'll see what paranoia...
    It's hysteria!
    Still NO evidences were found and lots of blamings towards Russia can be seen in western mass-media!

    A mechanism of rumors and supposings has replaced elementary logic..

    What I can suggest now, is to be patient and to wait....
    Last edited by amvas; 07 Dec 06, 08:46.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    Do I sense a feeling of paranoia ??
    Read Western newspapers and you'll see what paranoia...

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    In reality most in the west wish Russia to be strong, prosperous, democratic country where rule of law is upheld. This would make Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules. Russia holds huge potential and it is such a shame to see it wasted like it is now.
    All that phrases are lie!
    "Strong" - never thought it's so... Especially remembering recent words of a new Estonian Minister of Defense, who named "Russian thread" to be the main one

    "Prosperious" - lets say enough prosperroues to sell enough raw resources and buy western goods..

    "democratic country where rule of law is upheld" - All the time I heard such phrases I think what regime can satisfy this creitera. And the answer always is "that one, which is controlled from abroad".
    When weak Yeltsin was the head of Russia it was called "democratic", but when strong Putin came, it immediately was declared to become "less democratic" (I used wuite soft term). In reality there were no democracy in Yeltsin's time. tere was regime close to anarchy....And all western leaders greeted such a state of Russia...
    But lets stop here

    "Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules."
    Well and what western leaders said when Russia applied market rules towards Ukraine? Who forced us to keep low prices for gas (the lowest in the world!) for this state? what a pressure was applied to Russia?

    but lets stop here, I'm not interested to be involved in long off-topic dispute...

    Leave a comment:


  • pp(est)
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    The West do all that it is possible to do Russia weak, dependent country with corrupted rules which would be Western puppets. Here what the Russians think. And all this trash in Western mass media only increase its impression.
    In reality most in the west wish Russia to be strong, prosperous, democratic country where rule of law is upheld. This would make Russia a reliable energy and security partner and a place where you could do business under market rules. Russia holds huge potential and it is such a shame to see it wasted like it is now.

    Leave a comment:


  • tigersqn
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    If Russian Police asked to come to UK and to interrogate everyone it wants so all the British mass media would screamed in hysteric.

    If US, French or German police did the same all would be OK.
    Do I sense a feeling of paranoia ??

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Yes, Andrey, that's what normally happens. No power to arrest / detain suspects, but freedom to go and speak to potential witnesses, to take statements of evidence. UK Police do go abroad to do this and not just in serious cases. Foreign Forces can come to the UK to carry out investigations and have direct liaison with local Officers to assist them. Unlike the the press, I don't read anything sinister in the Chief Prosecutor's decision - it is presumably just the Russian way. It might not assist the search for the truth however.
    It is now reported that Polonium traces are found in the British Embassy in Moscow. Another scenaro implicating British Security Services as in the death of Princess Diana will doubtless be put forward...
    If Russian Police asked to come to UK and to interrogate everyone it wants so all the British mass media would screamed in hysteric.

    If US, French or German police did the same all would be OK.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Yes, Andrey, that's what normally happens. No power to arrest / detain suspects, but freedom to go and speak to potential witnesses, to take statements of evidence. UK Police do go abroad to do this and not just in serious cases. Foreign Forces can come to the UK to carry out investigations and have direct liaison with local Officers to assist them. Unlike the the press, I don't read anything sinister in the Chief Prosecutor's decision - it is presumably just the Russian way. It might not assist the search for the truth however.
    It is now reported that Polonium traces are found in the British Embassy in Moscow. Another scenaro implicating British Security Services as in the death of Princess Diana will doubtless be put forward...

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Thank you for continuing to set out the Russian perspective on these issues Andrey, to balance up what I'm reading here.
    Yes, I did have some doubts about how much co-operation would be forthcoming from the Russian Authorities to the Met Police Officers now in Moscow.
    Perhaps these doubts were warranted considering the Russian Chief Prosecutor's announcements that only his staff will be allowed to question witnesses and suspects for the Met, and that no one will be extradited to face trial in the UK - any trial to take place in Russia, and that the Met would be better advised to continue investigations in London because exiles are behind it. Let's keep an open mind shall we?
    Imagine that Russian Police (Police of Moscow that is app. equals to your Met Police) demands from UK to come in Britain and to interrogate everyone it wants...

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Thank you for continuing to set out the Russian perspective on these issues Andrey, to balance up what I'm reading here.
    Yes, I did have some doubts about how much co-operation would be forthcoming from the Russian Authorities to the Met Police Officers now in Moscow.
    Perhaps these doubts were warranted considering the Russian Chief Prosecutor's announcements that only his staff will be allowed to question witnesses and suspects for the Met, and that no one will be extradited to face trial in the UK - any trial to take place in Russia, and that the Met would be better advised to continue investigations in London because exiles are behind it. Let's keep an open mind shall we?
    It is reported here that Lugovoi is in hospital, possible suffering effects of exposure to radiation. Perhaps he has been "framed" by those exiles....
    The British embassy is being checked to see if any visitor has left traces of polonium 210.
    I am getting the impression that those responsible for actually poisoning Litvinenko will be identified. Tracing those who ordered it may be more difficult - whether State, Patriotic Group, Russian Exiles, ex- FSB, organised crime group - but not insurmountable.
    Intersting stuff about Sakhalin. The companies mentioned here were Shell and BP - though there may be others. There are usually at least 2 sides to any story...

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Interesting stuff Andrey. Where is Chubais now?
    Chubais is a Chief Manager of Russian Energetic System now.

    As for the Western press containing trash on the subject, I don't think that is the case with the paper in my links. You say it is a mixture of truth and lies. Facts and speculation I would say. What do you suggest they have deliberately stated knowing it to be untrue?
    They at least show patriotic movements as extremist nationalistic parties.

    It is completely incorrect.

    It has been announced that 9 Metropolitan Police Officers are to fly to Moscow to make enqiries with the assistance of the authorities. Let's see how they get on.
    They still don't fly but it looks like you have doubts that the Russian rules wil cooperate....

    Today's paper quotes Col Valentin Velichko of the Dignity and Honour group as saying "We will punish those who rob Russia and the Russian People".
    I don't know who is Col Velichko. He isn't known in Russia to wide public.

    I can see another scenario - Berezovsky gave money to another Russian traitor to make sensational declarations about non-existing radical groups. I wonder why the Western mass media don't discuss such version.

    And even if (IF!!!) such group exists so how Putin is connected with them???? Any country has own crazy radicals. Why didn't the West blame Saudi Arabia rules for Bin Laden's actions?

    I have little knowledge of Russia in the 90s when oligarchs made their billions and power cuts were being made, but can understand that feelings run deep and there may be great desire to seek revenge against those involved - as well as against traitors / detectors and dissident exiles who wage campaigns against Putin. However, if such feelings lead to murders on foreign soil, and groups threatening such action go unchecked, the expect Russia's reputation to suffer accordingly.
    How is Putin connectd to it????

    BTW, it is reported that Khodorkovsky has had a Moscow Court refuse to hear his appeal against sentence for "tax evasion" so he is stuck in Krasnokamensk for another 5 years. .
    You can't imagine how MUCH money he didn't pay.

    Al Capone was sent to a prison for much lower money.

    It is also reported that the Russian Government is not averse to making unexpected tax demands on Western Oil companies in what seems to be blackmail.
    If you speak about the situation on the Sakhalin so the Russian TV shows the situation so.

    In the 90th Russian Government gave to a Western Oil Company (don't remember its name right now) the right to build Gas Plant in the Sakhalin. Sakhalin is in Far-East, it has very difficult connections to cebtral Russia.

    The conditions were the following:
    - Russia will pay ALL the money which the Oil Company would spent to build the plants,
    - the Oil Company was to build infrasructure of Sakhalin (to build roads, bridges, telephone wire lines and so on),
    - the Oil Company was to provide maximum protection for Sakhalin's ecology.

    All this was signed in the 90th.

    Now the Oil Company have almost finished the works and said to Russian rules: "Hey, guys, we have almost finished it, But there is a small problem. We planned to spend 10 billions dollars. But we really spent 15 billions dollars. We have an agreement so you are to pay us 15 billions dollars instead of 10."
    [I don't remember the exact numbers so I wrote the numbers approximately. The scale is appoximately correct]

    The Russian rukes said: "What? Are you demanding we to pay 5 billion dollars more, one and a half times more? Why didn't you say about it earlier? Why didn'y you adjust those additional spendings with us earlier?"

    And the Russian rules decided to check what is going on on Sakhalin.

    What they saw!

    The ecology is damaged significantly, the oil company didn't provide all the necessary efforts to protect it. Russian TV showed pictures of dead fish on the coast of Sakhalin.

    A Russian minister a few times asked the Western oil company's chief to confirm the fact of the damage to the ecology. In the end the chief confirmed it befoe public.

    The Sakhalin's infrastructure was built ONLY in the region of the gas plant but it was not built in the other regions of the Sakhalin.

    There are a lot of questions about the additional spendings. Of course, it is easy to spend money if it is known that foregn government will pay it later.

    But Western mass media began the scream about totlitarian regime, struggle against freedom, economical pressure when Russian rules began to look what is going on on Sakhalin...

    This will perhaps encourage other oligarchs in Russia to keep a low profile or join the exodus to London.
    The oligarchs who are making legal business now live OK in Russia.

    When will the West first experience a cut in power from Russia like Ukraine did last winter?
    The Ukraine parasitized on cheap Russian gas and had anti-Russian policy. Th Russian government didn't want more to support the hostile regime by cheap gas (a few times cheaper then to Europe).

    But the Ukraine refused to pay and began to stole some gas which was the property of other European countries.

    If Europe is ready to pay money for the Ukraine for doing gas cheap to its cinsumers, let you do it. Russian people don't want to do it.

    During the Cold War the USSR sent gas to Europe and there were no problems in the spite of the fact it was the Cold War.

    Is Russia strong, independent and democratically ruled or is it a bully with a repressive regime and out of control crime groups and security services. I don't know enough to even venture an opinion, but the Litvinenko affair will contribute greatly to Westerners tending towards the latter view if it is not cleared up in coming weeks.
    The West do all that it is possible to do Russia weak, dependent country with corrupted rules which would be Western puppets. Here what the Russians think. And all this trash in Western mass media only increase its impression.

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