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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
    It was the dastardly Finns again. Just like in 1939.

    More seriously, the use of such sophisticated method makes me incline even more to the position that this was a work of some state agency. It does serve a powerful message to all would-be defectors as well as all who dare investigate Russsian matters too much.
    I don't think you can get polonium 210 on Ebay , but informed "Security Experts" in the West say that criminal gangs have access to this sort of stuff and worse in the Russian Federation.
    You could argue that use of such exotic material was designed to make State involvement appear more likely.
    You could also consider the earlier claims of the deceased that the FSB have been employing criminal gangs to do assassinations for them and so assume that such material would be provided for them to carry out instructions.
    If Berezovsky had arranged such a horrible demise for his friend to try and discredit Putin, he takes the prize for most evil oligarch in Europe if not the entire world. I still can't see that as being the most likely scenario.
    Mr Putin's statements on the incident seem odd to me. He said he saw no definitive proof that it was a violent death." What, compared to 3 bullets in the head maybe?
    And how many ex FSB Officers now work for B and other oligarchs? How many current FSB Officers too, for that matter.
    Some interesting "facts" in Western press: a third of Russia' billionaires live in London. Over 1000 Russians worth £5 million live in Britain.and some 300,000 others have immigrated to UK in last 10 years - including members of Russian Mafia. The exiles have their own papers, magazine and a radio station. Roman Abramovich is said to be the second richest person in Britain, and a former business partner of Berezoksky. Does he also hold some Government position in Siberia?
    The so called third man has been named as Dmitry Kovtun. A fourth man, Vyaceslav Sokolenko, business partner of Lugovoi, was also at the hotel and met Litvineko. There are suggestions that the substance may have been administered before the day of the meetings however.
    All in all, something pretty sordid has gone on in London and it does nothing for the image of Putin and the Russian Federation.

    This story will run and run. Good luck to the Metropolitan Police!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Dave T View Post
      I don't think you can get polonium 210 on Ebay
      Recently I heard there exists an American company selling Polonium-210 to any customer

      If Berezovsky had arranged such a horrible demise for his friend to try and discredit Putin, he takes the prize for most evil oligarch in Europe if not the entire world. I still can't see that as being the most likely scenario.
      Berezovsky is the most evil oligarkh. It was assumed here long ago....

      Mr Putin's statements on the incident seem odd to me. He said he saw no definitive proof that it was a violent death." What, compared to 3 bullets in the head maybe?
      And you wished Mr. Putin to say "He deserved such a death"?
      Well, I remember one exotic death here.
      About 10-12 years ago one our businessman was poisoned by radioactive materials hidden in his phone apparatus. It was not FSB, it were his rivals-gangsters, as it was found later... As Berezovsky was here that time he must be acquired with this well-known case

      And how many ex FSB Officers now work for B and other oligarchs? How many current FSB Officers too, for that matter.
      Hardly you can find any statistics on this subject, but I can say, that ex-FSB officers are VERY welcomed in ANY private security services...
      So, I'm more than sure such a staff can be found among surrounding of any oligarkh... Lets say it's amatter of prestige to have such boys in their teams....
      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

      Comment


      • #63
        Boys, imagine - you are a leader of some large country... (USA, Russia, GB, China, Luxemburg....)
        You have some pals critisizing you, or your politics, or your life at all....
        Several logical questions then...

        1) What benefit you'll get from their death? Will it cause silence among your critics?

        2) If you decides to kill anybody, what moment for doing this you'll choose?
        Probably it will not be the moment of some important international meetings, eh? there exists some more nice political pauses, for example the christmas holidays, when opposite mass-media are busy with something else...

        3) If you still wants to kill somebody, what way you would choose?
        I think you will not choose the loudest way, eh?
        Good old sniper rifle, or classical portion of explosives in needed time and place would be much more effective for any professional killer, than exotic poisons. Poisons are good, when they mask death under some illness (heart attack, for example)...

        4) If you still so like poisons, need you to use such a poison, traces of which can be find with any simplest measuring devices? (And radioactivity can be found very quickly, as a chemist I can prove this easily) Besides all, radioactive materials are very hard to transport and traces of them can't be washed out, even if you wish to do this very very much...

        If I were such a person, who were interested in somebody's death (save God from been such a one ) I would never take a decision for such a mission under given conditions.
        And vise versa, if I would be a person, who wants to makes everybody thinkg my opponent is interested in murdering, I would go on just in some similar way (the most loud murder in exotic way, choosing some unsuitable time for my opponent et.al.)

        So, I can only join to join to DaveT's exclamation "Good luck to the Metropolitan Police!"
        I feel we'll hear much more interesting details soon...

        Regards,
        Alex
        Last edited by amvas; 26 Nov 06, 00:52.
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #64
          Amvas,

          1) This wasn't just any critic. This was a defector. Killing him in a public manner serves as a powerful warning to potential future defectors. As long as Putin has at least some manner of deniability I don't think he cares much what we in the west think about him (as proven by his comments right after the Politovskaya killing or kissing little boys). As I said most people here think he is just another dictator anyway.

          2) If you intend to murder somebody as a warning to make a point, it doesn't really matter. As expected the murder has had no effect to Russia's foreign relations.

          3) Poison would be the preferred choice in the circumstances. Sniper rifles or car bombs would attract way too much attention in London (it isn't the wild Moscow you know), may cause significant collateral damage and are generally unreliable as means for assassination. Getting caught with an exotic substance can be explained away - bombs and sniper rifles cannot.

          4) It is obvious that nobody found the poison. Using substance which is not instantly recognised as poison for assassination and could be explained to have another purpose is not a bad idea.

          I am pretty certain that the assassins are far from UK and EU by now and it is unlikely that the murder will ever be solved completely. It would be a positive surprise if the Met could find the killer.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by amvas View Post
            Berezovsky is the most evil oligarkh. It was assumed here long ago....
            There is another very evil oligarch. His name is Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Oh, O forgot, he is "a fighter for civil rights", "a victim of Putin's regime" - :-).

            Khodorkovsky tried to get control over the Russian Parliament, he began to buy openly deputies.

            He was judged for the organization of a few murders and attempts to murder. The crimes were organized done by the chief of Yukos Security Service, who got orders to organize it from Khodorkovsky.

            They murdered, for example, Mayor of the town of Nefteyugansk, in which some of Yukos industry was situated.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
              Amvas,

              1) This wasn't just any critic. This was a defector. Killing him in a public manner serves as a powerful warning to potential future defectors.
              Silly version..
              There exists much more candidates to be killed then...
              the same Gordievsky, or Oleg Kalugin, or Viktor Rezun (Suvorov).
              they made much more harm to security, than that poor puppet Litvinenko...

              As long as Putin has at least some manner of deniability I don't think he cares much what we in the west think about him (as proven by his comments right after the Politovskaya killing or kissing little boys). As I said most people here think he is just another dictator anyway.
              Putin have no any features of dictator... So, your opinion, is only your opinion...
              As for the foreign veiw on Russia, you are wrong Putin doesn't take in mind this...At least I never noticed such a trends in his style

              2) If you intend to murder somebody as a warning to make a point, it doesn't really matter. As expected the murder has had no effect to Russia's foreign relations.
              See my comments above...

              3) Poison would be the preferred choice in the circumstances. Sniper rifles or car bombs would attract way too much attention in London (it isn't the wild Moscow you know), may cause significant collateral damage and are generally unreliable as means for assassination. Getting caught with an exotic substance can be explained away - bombs and sniper rifles cannot.
              So, you think walking with radioactive materials in your pocket is quite a safe travel... well, we have different points of view here... Maybe dimensions in comparison with rifle are different, but IMHO hardly you can answer to simple question "What you were going to do as a private person with that Polonium element?"... you easily can be treated as terrorist, and this can led to immediate death (remember that poor Brazilian chap killed in London subway?)

              4) It is obvious that nobody found the poison. Using substance which is not instantly recognised as poison for assassination and could be explained to have another purpose is not a bad idea.
              Any radiactive element is poison...They differs only by degree of poison...

              I am pretty certain that the assassins are far from UK and EU by now and it is unlikely that the murder will ever be solved completely. It would be a positive surprise if the Met could find the killer.
              Most often assassins themselves are dead after a few days...if to remember practice of Mafia...
              Last edited by amvas; 26 Nov 06, 03:49.
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

              Comment


              • #67
                The amount of Polonium involved was minuscule. It could have easily been hidden in some equipment which has completely legitimate use. This amount would not have been very useful for terrorist attack but as it happened - perfect for assassinating former spies.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                  The amount of Polonium involved was minuscule. It could have easily been hidden in some equipment which has completely legitimate use. This amount would not have been very useful for terrorist attack but as it happened - perfect for assassinating former spies.
                  Even traces of radioactive elements are easily fixed by detectors, which are used by securities frigthened by possibility of terrorist attacks
                  If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    There are plenty of medical equipment, photographic equipment, all sorts of measuring devices, etc. which use some radioactive materials as components. A few years ago even formula1 engines used radioactive components. Hiding very small quantities of radioactive substances among such equipment would be no problem at all, perhaps you would not want to carry such stuff in your handluggage in the airport, but transporting them together with other goods, say medical equipment, would be risk-free and very easy to accomplish.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      To the point, what Metropolian Police is? I have never heard such name!!!

                      I have heard Scotland Yard, MI5, MI6, SAS, CIC but not Metropolian Police!!!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                        There are plenty of medical equipment, photographic equipment, all sorts of measuring devices, etc. which use some radioactive materials as components. A few years ago even formula1 engines used radioactive components. Hiding very small quantities of radioactive substances among such equipment would be no problem at all, perhaps you would not want to carry such stuff in your handluggage in the airport, but transporting them together with other goods, say medical equipment, would be risk-free and very easy to accomplish.
                        8 years ago I transported a portion of industrial catalyst to one chemical plant. It was neither radioactive nor serios poison. But I was much worried not to be caught with securities, because I had no official documents for its transfer because of some time limits...Of course everything would be resolved soon, but I would have got much troubles before this.
                        So, if a man has Polonium in his pocket, he initially will have much more troubles with police in the case he's caught for some other reasons and it will become impossible to him to use just this poison after this.....

                        Back to our case, there are plenty of poisons, which acts quickly and leaves no traces in organism. So, WHO needed that two-weeks-show with slow coming to death of Litvinenko????
                        And how come well-equipped British doctors could't locate excess of radioactivity on Litvininko's body until his death?

                        So, I' 100% sure it was done not by FSB...
                        FSB used poison to kill Khattab (a famous terrorist in Chechnia).
                        His death was very quick and until now nobody knows how it had been performed exactly and what poison they used.
                        You see the differences?
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                          To the point, what Metropolian Police is? I have never heard such name!!!

                          I have heard Scotland Yard, MI5, MI6, SAS, CIC but not Metropolian Police!!!
                          The Met, as it shortened to, is the biggest police force in Britain and covers the area of Greater London and surrounding areas. It also has responsibility for some national issues and has a large Counter Terrorism Department and this case is assigned to the Commander of that Dept. NewScotland Yard is the Headquarters building of the Met.
                          Apparently Polonium 210 emits Alpha rays that cannot penetrate the skin or even paper, so it is safe to transport and only causes this damage when ingested. For this reason it was not detectable from directly the patient but was found in urine samples. It may pose difficulties when/if an autopsy is carried out.
                          The case of the radioactive phone murder Alex mentioned sounds interesting and will doubtless interest the Met too. The Met will obviously be working with the Security Services - MI5 - and the Intelligence Service MI6 on this case.
                          As for Khodorkovsky, I thought he was jailed for fraud or tax evasion and sent to somewhere remote to be attacked by fellow prisoners etc. I haven't gone out of my way to read such stories before, but you can't avoid them in the media now. When my beginner's Russian improves a bit, I hope to try and see the reports in Russian papers.
                          BTW, much has been made here about the Russian Law passed a few months ago authorising assassinations on foreign soil. Hmmm.
                          I hope the thread stays open so we can share viewpoints as developments are revealed. It makes the fibre glass rock spy device story pale by comparison. In a way you have to feel for Putin if he's blameless. How do you prove a negative? The potential damage to diplomatic relations is grave whether there was State involvement or not.
                          Plenty of job vacancies for security staff for Russian exiles at the moment in UK. I guess many of them have had there complacency shaken.
                          If we get the truth ever, I suspect it will be years from now....

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Dave T View Post
                            Apparently Polonium 210 emits Alpha rays that cannot penetrate the skin or even paper, so it is safe to transport and only causes this damage when ingested. For this reason it was not detectable from directly the patient but was found in urine samples. It may pose difficulties when/if an autopsy is carried out.
                            Yes, "alpha-rays" are worse than others detected (as they passes only ~4 cm length) in organism. But I meant every radioactive material can be traced much more easily than non-radioactive. you see how quickly traces of Polonium were found in sushi-bar, and other places visited by Litvinenko?
                            This only proves my point....

                            The case of the radioactive phone murder Alex mentioned sounds interesting and will doubtless interest the Met too.
                            Yes, that was very unusual case. Therefore it's very famous here...

                            As for Khodorkovsky, I thought he was jailed for fraud or tax evasion and sent to somewhere remote to be attacked by fellow prisoners etc. I haven't gone out of my way to read such stories before, but you can't avoid them in the media now. When my beginner's Russian improves a bit, I hope to try and see the reports in Russian papers.
                            To tell you the truth, any of our oligarkhs can seat together with Khodorkovsky. THat folk simply tried to take part in political life. That was his mistake...Immediately all "skeletons in wardrobe" were found....

                            BTW, much has been made here about the Russian Law passed a few months ago authorising assassinations on foreign soil. Hmmm.
                            If law would be applied the first victim would be Berezovsky himself, but not his puppet...
                            also, as I have already said there are plenty of much more serios figures...
                            If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Amvas, I have a client who deals with medical equipment, including stuff which have radioactive components. You need a license to sell the stuff, but it can be carried around by pretty much anybody.

                              The traces of radioactive materials were found in the Sushi bar and elsewhere only after it was known what to look for. It is quite possible that whoever used this might have thought it can wash out of the body before the exact poison is ever discovered (unfortunately in poisoning cases it is not rare that the exact poison is never discovered). We don't know the details on how they discovered it, but the fact that it took some time to discover it suggests it is possible that it might have been missed altogether.

                              Khdorovsky will have to wait, my flight is boarding.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                                Amvas, I have a client who deals with medical equipment, including stuff which have radioactive components. You need a license to sell the stuff, but it can be carried around by pretty much anybody.
                                Still don't think it's a good idea to walk around any town having any radioactive materials in your pocket...

                                The traces of radioactive materials were found in the Sushi bar and elsewhere only after it was known what to look for. It is quite possible that whoever used this might have thought it can wash out of the body before the exact poison is ever discovered (unfortunately in poisoning cases it is not rare that the exact poison is never discovered). We don't know the details on how they discovered it, but the fact that it took some time to discover it suggests it is possible that it might have been missed altogether.

                                Khdorovsky will have to wait, my flight is boarding.
                                As I have allready said there are plenty of other poisons, traces of which are almost impossible to find.
                                It's not much professional to use poison, which has so specific effect to show the person had been realy poison, but not died from some disease.
                                I don't think assassines expected traces of radioactive posion not to be finally detected.
                                Maybe they were interested just in opposite eh? I mean police TO DETECT traces of poison, where THEY want to place them?
                                Didn't you checked up possibility of such a variant?
                                What if traces of this element is found in embassy of some state after some anonimous call?
                                So, usage such a strange way of poisoning leaves too many questions, which are hard to answer....
                                IMHO, Litvinenko was killed by his own friends connected with Berezovskiy and Chechen terrorist Zakaev...
                                He was worked off material and had to become a "sacrificial victim" in that PR war, Berezovsky performs against Russia
                                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                                Comment

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