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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • Usievich
    replied
    I raised an eyebrow when I saw the mention of nuclear sales to bogus Islamic groups. It's been well documented that British Intelligence has links to "Islamic terrorists" and it's quite possible that the "Al Qaida" umbrella group is a front:

    "According to Pakistani President Musharraf......



    Daniel Pearl's murderer was an agent of MI6 (British Intelligence)



    LONDON: Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf has disclosed that Omar Sheikh, who kidnapped and murdered American journalist Daniel Pearl and is now facing death penalty, was actually the British secret Agency MI6’s agent and had executed certain missions on their behest before coming to Pakistan and visiting Afghanistan to meet Osama and Mullah Omar."

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Originally posted by Jozhik View Post
    I just want to note something here - this week, the Similarly with Litvinenko, though with him there are more proven criminal connections (Berezovsky only one among them), and the possibility that he was engaged in a nuclear smuggling operation (if he died from a radioactive element, he either was given it deliberately, or ingested it accidentally; since we cannot conclusively prove which - use the Reasonable Doubt judicial standard - we must accept the possibility of accidental ingestion, which implies he was involved with the material, which, in turn, would likely have been smuggled or obtained illegally; he certainly had enough criminal connections to try a stunt like this).

    Never mind that Litvinenko _was_ a traitor. To secure his life in the West, he first gave up an unknown number of Soviet agents. Naturally, this led to deaths. A fact of the espionage war, but one that distinguishes him from, say, a scientist passing along a nuclear secret in 1945. The latter is attempting to achieve world peace through nuclear parity; people like Litvinenko are trying to save their own skin and/or achieve material security by allowing others to die. Of course, the interesting part is that the Russians had a chance to kill Litvinenko for many years - and only _now_ they're going to start?! And why him and not all the other defectors?

    I begin to drift again, topic-wise. The bottom line is - in all these cases, we have few _proven_ facts and a lot of allegations, as well as little motive. By the standards of any Western judicial system, that is nowhere near enough to convict. Yet convict we do - oh, they're Russians, they like authoritarianism, etc. etc. Why not just go all the way to "Asiatic Hordes" of writers like Mellenthin.
    Hmm. Lots of intersting stuff in recent posts.
    I am watching Russia today Andrey. I don't see the same sort of heavy duty digging into Government that we have here.
    I agree that there can be all sorts of hidden vested interests and connections and payayments that influence what journalists and writers produce here and elsewhere.
    If there was a Litvinenko murder trial here - not likely if the suspects are Russian citizens because they wouldn't be extradited - then the standard of proof would be "beyond all reasonable doubt". We only know sketchy details of evidence so far - as reported by the media - so it is impractical to judge but there is clearly a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence arising out of the polonium traces. The residue in a cup presumably used by Litvinenko in the Pine Bar of the Millenium Hotel does not really fit with self administration in furtherance of smuggling, or accidental administration does it?
    What deaths has Litvinenko caused. I haven't heard of that. Didn't he have some nerve to go public with his allegations before he fled the country?
    I still don't think he is being portrayed in a particularly good light though doubtless his wife gains sympathy. We would prefer that this sort of sordid event happening around Russian emigres and visitors was not on British soil. It really isn't nice is it, whatever the motive, the timing, the method, etc?
    I only had one ear listening, but did I hear something about attempted sale of enriched uranium to a pretend Islamic Fundamentalist Group.
    What a messy and dangerous world we live in.
    Anyway, let's see how the Litvinenko enquiry develops and I will try and keep a more open mind

    Leave a comment:


  • Jozhik
    replied
    I just want to note something here - this week, the New Yorker (www.thenewyorker.com) published a 10-page article about "Putin killing his opponents". Presumably the writer was a Western friend of Politkovskaya (or, at least, a close acquaintance).

    Regardless of what you think of Putin, etc., that article looks to me to be short on facts and heavy on "Russia is turning into the Evil Empire again" rhetoric. Not quite as bad as what John McCain says on occasion, but close.

    So - a warning. I would not use that article (or anything the Wall Street Journal prints on the subject) as a good source.

    On topic - understand. Many of these "freedom-loving journalists" have criminal, even terrorist connections. Many of them are "in the pocket" of certain special interest groups, many of which in turn are funded by Western governments which have no love for the new assertive Russian policies.

    This is not to suggest that _all_ such journalists are "whoring themselves out" - but many do. As is normal - the WSJ editors ***** themselves out to far-right interests, certain political columnists in the U.S. routinely spout ideologies of either the left or the right without regard for facts (think: Dowd, Friedman, Brooks, Applebaum, Will, Novak, etc. etc. ad infinitum). It's their job, after all.

    This is also not to suggest that Russia today is an ideal and "perfectly free" state. First, "total freedom" is a concept that does not exist anywhere. Even before Bush, the U.S. was anything but "totally free". True, you wouldn't be thrown in jail for, say, going up against AIPAC, but if you were an academic your career could be ruined quite easily. Certain things can't be said, certain subjects can't be discussed, certain ideological precepts are taken as truths and others suppressed - voluntarily or through open censorship. Decades ago, certain races were anything but free - the Japanese during the war, the blacks before and after. Now, the U.S. _is_ more relaxed in this than, say, Stalin's Russia, but a state is a state is a state - human states are all organized along certain core precepts. Total freedom has never been one of them - some degree of control must exist.

    Now, is Russia as liberal in this regard as the U.S., today? Perhaps, perhaps not. It is hardly a proven fact, however, that it has sunk to the level where it will actively kill any journalist that it dislikes. Why do so, for instance? Would that not draw attention to said journalist? Contrary to popular Western belief, Politkovskaya was not exactly widely read in the past few years. So far, all I have seen are accusations that lack a logical motive. However, these events are convenient for Western articles decrying Russia's policies. So...it's not a 100% probability, of course, but probably above 75% that this is more of a circus than facts.

    Similarly with Litvinenko, though with him there are more proven criminal connections (Berezovsky only one among them), and the possibility that he was engaged in a nuclear smuggling operation (if he died from a radioactive element, he either was given it deliberately, or ingested it accidentally; since we cannot conclusively prove which - use the Reasonable Doubt judicial standard - we must accept the possibility of accidental ingestion, which implies he was involved with the material, which, in turn, would likely have been smuggled or obtained illegally; he certainly had enough criminal connections to try a stunt like this).

    Never mind that Litvinenko _was_ a traitor. To secure his life in the West, he first gave up an unknown number of Soviet agents. Naturally, this led to deaths. A fact of the espionage war, but one that distinguishes him from, say, a scientist passing along a nuclear secret in 1945. The latter is attempting to achieve world peace through nuclear parity; people like Litvinenko are trying to save their own skin and/or achieve material security by allowing others to die. Of course, the interesting part is that the Russians had a chance to kill Litvinenko for many years - and only _now_ they're going to start?! And why him and not all the other defectors?

    I begin to drift again, topic-wise. The bottom line is - in all these cases, we have few _proven_ facts and a lot of allegations, as well as little motive. By the standards of any Western judicial system, that is nowhere near enough to convict. Yet convict we do - oh, they're Russians, they like authoritarianism, etc. etc. Why not just go all the way to "Asiatic Hordes" of writers like Mellenthin.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    I was thinking of the specific case but the question is general. The reports here are that there is no longer a free press in Russia; that journalists investigating alleged misdeeds of Government are suppressed,and their media hindered.
    You should understand that we live in the time of information wars. Look how US mass media showed Iraq war in 2003!

    Russian reporters can make own investigations.

    But Russian state (and the Russians) doesn't want to endure more the situation when some journalists fling mud at their homeland for the money of foreign special services or oligarchs like Berezovsky. Anatolii Sobchak, a famous democratic leader, Mayor of St Petersburg, died in the result of the baiting campagn in mass media that was organized by his political enemies. His heart broke. It was in the end of the 90th (approximately).

    Russian TV often criticize some rules actions.

    I especially like "Komsomolskaia Pravda" newspaper.

    And I offer you to look "Russia Today" TV channel which is English-language Russian perspective.

    I don't see the parralel between Litvinenko and Horst Wessell. Apart from his film-maker friend's tribute, no one is idolising Lirtvinenko here.
    I see. In both cases propaganda turned a bad guy in a hero. The translations of Western mass media about Litvinenko that I read shows him as a real hero, frredom fighter and patriot of his country.

    Leave a comment:


  • stalin
    replied
    Originally posted by joea View Post
    Maybe you are right, but people still should speak their minds. Problem is most of the press either serves the state, or the lowest common denominator in the masses (ie. what we call in polite English "poo").
    anyways,
    i'm not keen on any sort of revolutionary ideas,
    so i don't stand for abolishment of the "free press"
    by no means

    i only want them to leave us, russians, alone
    'cause since the days of old they wrote bollocks about us

    Leave a comment:


  • joea
    replied
    Originally posted by stalin View Post
    ... as if there was one before.
    in fact, russia is just like the rest of the world - not much of the free press and never will be.
    and why on earth do we need a "free press"?
    for lousy journalists not to lose their lousy jobs?
    Maybe you are right, but people still should speak their minds. Problem is most of the press either serves the state, or the lowest common denominator in the masses (ie. what we call in polite English "poo").

    Leave a comment:


  • stalin
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    ... The reports here are that there is no longer a free press in Russia...
    ... as if there was one before.
    in fact, russia is just like the rest of the world - not much of the free press and never will be.
    and why on earth do we need a "free press"?
    for lousy journalists not to lose their lousy jobs?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    About those FSB colleagues - I don't know.

    About journalist investigations - what do you mean: investigations commonly or about that case?

    There are a lot of journalist investigations, nobody prevents them.

    About that case - a month ago Russian TV showed the documentary about all the aspects of Litvinenko's life including interviews with his colleagues in FSB. I didn't see it.

    If British TV wants to know the Russian opinion it should invite Russian experts - FSB people, operating Russian reporters (non-anti-Putin's exiled public) and so on. You can ask this in your TV as a British citizen.

    All this story remind to me the story of Horst Vessel. Horst Vessel was a German SA-member, a bandit who was killed in a drunken scuffle. The Nazies idealized him and wrote "Song about Horst Vessel" which became a hymn of the Nazies. The bandit was shown a hero by Hoeebels propaganda.
    I was thinking of the specific case but the question is general. The reports here are that there is no longer a free press in Russia; that journalists investigating alleged misdeeds of Government are suppressed,and their media hindered.
    I would like to see more Russian viewpoints reflected on UK TV but I suspect I am in a minute minority
    There was a token Kremlin spokesman in one of the programs. I cannot remember his name. He didn't create a good impression, appearing to be shifty and dismissive. Perhaps he was just reflecting Russian public opinion about Litvinenko's fantastic claims...
    I don't see the parralel between Litvinenko and Horst Wessell. Apart from his film-maker friend's tribute, no one is idolising Lirtvinenko here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    What has happened to Litvinenko's FSB colleagues who joined him at the press conference to expose the illegal acts of their organisation - mainly the Berezovsky assassination plans? Is there any such investigative journalism in Russia today or has the state closed any media engaged in such?
    About those FSB colleagues - I don't know.

    About journalist investigations - what do you mean: investigations commonly or about that case?

    There are a lot of journalist investigations, nobody prevents them.

    About that case - a month ago Russian TV showed the documentary about all the aspects of Litvinenko's life including interviews with his colleagues in FSB. I didn't see it.

    If British TV wants to know the Russian opinion it should invite Russian experts - FSB people, operating Russian reporters (non-anti-Putin's exiled public) and so on. You can ask this in your TV as a British citizen.

    All this story remind to me the story of Horst Vessel. Horst Vessel was a German SA-member, a bandit who was killed in a drunken scuffle. The Nazies idealized him and wrote "Song about Horst Vessel" which became a hymn of the Nazies. The bandit was shown a hero by Hoeebels propaganda.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    Oh, again that serial is going on...
    It will run and run! Longer than the thread stays open I suspect
    Originally posted by amvas View Post


    Yes, I heard about this...
    Funny to mention if dose which killed Litvinenko cost $30 mln two attempts must cost at least $60 mlns...
    Don't you think it's too much to spend for simply murder of one person?
    Maybe this proves that Litvinenko had contact with Polonium more than once. This can be treated as a proof of his involvement in illegal traffic of radioactive materials...
    I doubt that the suppliers of the poison had to pay commercial rates! The polonium trail was attached to Lugavoy and Kovtun, not to Litvinenko until he met them.

    Originally posted by amvas View Post

    The situation was just 180 deg. opposite...
    Litvinenko working in this direction tried to calumniate the most expreienced officers of police.... He provided absolutely fantastic versions none of which he could proove...
    As long as you are keeping an open mind
    Originally posted by amvas View Post
    Don't make me laugh....
    This pal was bought stock and barrel by Berezovsky!
    What a "patriot" he could be? He was a garden poodle of Berezovsky and nothing more....
    I guess a garden poodle is similar to a capitalist running dog. BTW we say lock, stock and barrel but your knowledge of English is pretty damn impressive. Calumniate Is not a word that trips of my tongue! Slander would fit here and be more intelligible to the increasingly ill-educated population of the UK Oh an just the one o in prove even though it is pronounced proove and the noun is proof! Hey, I'm finding trying to learn Russian pretty hard work so I'm nitpicking a bit.
    Originally posted by amvas View Post

    Have you noticed the range of people who had been asked?
    They also cold ask Shamil basaev what he thought about Litvinenko, but "Unfortunately" he had been killed some months earlier..
    for Russians opinion of all mentioned people means just the opposite what they are speaking about.
    If Berezovsky says "+" that means "-"...
    I did notice the absence of any counter to the hagiography of Litvinenko. I did say it was his friend's film and lacking in objectivity.
    Note that Russian investigators are being given access to interview whoever they want in the UK though with some security measures if the UK police assess a risk to the witnesses, some of which are apparently not well thought of in Russia

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    A brief mention of two BBC TV programmes yesterday:
    Oh, again that serial is going on...

    Current affairs program "Panorama" packed alot of objective investigative journalism into 30 minutes and concluded that more than one attempt was made to poison Litvinenko. Circumstantial evidence from the traces left by polonium 210 strongly implicates Lugavoy and Kovtun, whose only defence appears to be "We've been framed".
    Yes, I heard about this...
    Funny to mention if dose which killed Litvinenko cost $30 mln two attempts must cost at least $60 mlns...
    Don't you think it's too much to spend for simply murder of one person?
    Maybe this proves that Litvinenko had contact with Polonium more than once. This can be treated as a proof of his involvement in illegal traffic of radioactive materials...

    A program made by a British film director who befriended Litvinenko was rather less objective, portraying him as a man of high principal who had tried to expose criminal corruption in the FSB in Russia before he fled to the UK.
    The situation was just 180 deg. opposite...
    Litvinenko working in this direction tried to calumniate the most expreienced officers of police.... He provided absolutely fantastic versions none of which he could proove...

    He was shown as a Russian patriot and communist who despaired of the criminal nature of the state to the detriment of the people.
    Don't make me laugh....
    This pal was bought stock and barrel by Berezovsky!
    What a "patriot" he could be? He was a garden poodle of Berezovsky and nothing more....

    It contained lengthy interviews with Litvineko himself, his wife, Berezokvsky, Scaramella, Anna Politskaya etc and was quite effective in portraying him in a favourable light and denigrating Putin and the FSB.
    Have you noticed the range of people who had been asked?
    They also cold ask Shamil basaev what he thought about Litvinenko, but "Unfortunately" he had been killed some months earlier..
    for Russians opinion of all mentioned people means just the opposite what they are speaking about.
    If Berezovsky says "+" that means "-"...

    It would be good to see a program giving the Russian perspective of this program's contents.
    I already gave two extracted main versions from here.
    1) massive propagandistic anti-Russian campaign
    (paying $30-60 mlns is rather small amount in this case taking into consideration global purposes)
    2) Illegal traffic of Polonium

    A point was made about the timing of the assassination. It was suggested that the new law introduced in the Summer in Russia authorising State action abroad was one factor as was a plan for Litvinenko to address an EC meeting about his claims about the 1999 Moscow appartment bombings and involvement of FSB.
    Litvinanko generated too much crazy versions prooving theory of Dr. Goebbels "the most blatant lie is the most believable"

    What has happened to Litvinenko's FSB colleagues who joined him at the press conference to expose the illegal acts of their organisation - mainly the Berezovsky assassination plans? Is there any such investigative journalism in Russia today or has the state closed any media engaged in such?
    No comments...

    Regards,
    Alex

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    A brief mention of two BBC TV programmes yesterday:
    Current affairs program "Panorama" packed alot of objective investigative journalism into 30 minutes and concluded that more than one attempt was made to poison Litvinenko. Circumstantial evidence from the traces left by polonium 210 strongly implicates Lugavoy and Kovtun, whose only defence appears to be "We've been framed".
    A program made by a British film director who befriended Litvinenko was rather less objective, portraying him as a man of high principal who had tried to expose criminal corruption in the FSB in Russia before he fled to the UK. He was shown as a Russian patriot and communist who despaired of the criminal nature of the state to the detriment of the people. It contained lengthy interviews with Litvineko himself, his wife, Berezokvsky, Scaramella, Anna Politskaya etc and was quite effective in portraying him in a favourable light and denigrating Putin and the FSB.
    It would be good to see a program giving the Russian perspective of this program's contents.
    A point was made about the timing of the assassination. It was suggested that the new law introduced in the Summer in Russia authorising State action abroad was one factor as was a plan for Litvinenko to address an EC meeting about his claims about the 1999 Moscow appartment bombings and involvement of FSB.
    What has happened to Litvinenko's FSB colleagues who joined him at the press conference to expose the illegal acts of their organisation - mainly the Berezovsky assassination plans? Is there any such investigative journalism in Russia today or has the state closed any media engaged in such?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave T
    replied
    I appreciate Amvas' graphic expression. I wonder what breed of dog would best characterise the UK?
    If my puny efforts at learning Russian bear fruit, I would like to visit in the next year or two to "test relations".
    Thank you Andrey for the lucid exposition of Russian viewpoint. A large part of me agrees with the sentiments of the Russian population as set out by you. How is Blair's Britain in a position to tell other countries how to live? But...although I don't believe all I read in the UK media, I am uneasy about some of the things I read and hear about Russia. There is a saying here about there being no smoke without fire. "Strong" - repressive Government, nepotism, corruption, violent nationalist youth movements...(I meant Russia but maybe it fits the UK ) East is East and West is West and never the two shall meet may apply (Kipling, I think) Churchill's reference to Russia as a puzzle wrapped in an enigma etc etc perhaps still illustrates the West's continuing lack of understanding....
    The disparaging "NSY dorks" reference to the Metropolitan Police was taken from Comrade Stalin's post. I hold them in high esteem and wish them well in their continuing enquiries which will doubtless incorporate the Yukos angle propped up by the Russian prosecutor. I hope it is not a red herring - (diversion) to hamper them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Hmm. So says the Russian Chief prosecutor. He has named a Mr Nevzlin of Yukos - now in Israel. Maybe Khodorkovsky will be implicated in the conspiracy too despite his alibi
    I think the NSY dorks may have other views...
    What are NSY dorks?

    Anti Russian leader columns have appeared in serious UK press so a picture is painted to the readers almost of a bandit dictatorship bullying its neighbours and making mischief further afield. Is this reported in Russia and if so, how do the Russian people react? Are British visitors not particularly welcome at present?
    The Russians are informed about Western mass media writings.

    It is usually done in evening news and especially in weekly analitic TV programs.

    Also there are sites where Western aryicles are translated to Russian. The most known is www. inosmi.ru.

    The Russians have some feelings about it.

    1. The large dissapoint in Western political system in which the mass media write such a nonsense about Russia.

    2. The large feel that the West in not a friendly disposed toward Russia (often it operates as an enemy).

    3. The large feel that the West meddles into the Russian internal affairs, we don't want the West teach us how we should live.

    4. The large feel that the West uses the politics of double standarts towards Russia.

    So the conclusions are following:

    - We should not care a straw about what Western mass media will write, they will write badly about Russia in any case.

    - We do not want to become the same as the West.

    - We do not believe to Western mass media.

    And the common feeling is:
    "Hands off Russia" and "Get out with your demands and advises"

    And i want to add that the majority of the Russians live by ordinary life. Putin rules OK and they trust him to do it.

    The situation is stable and cann't be compared to the events of 2003 when the USA invaded Iraq or 1999 when the USA bombed Yugoslavia. In those time periods the most of Russians sat nearly TV-sets listening last news and then disputed it in a work. I remember that in my job in 2003 a 45-year woman-programmer began its work day by a question: "What is going on in Iraq now?"

    Amvas wrote an excellent answer:
    "A dog is barking but caravan is going forward".

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    Hmm. So says the Russian Chief prosecutor. He has named a Mr Nevzlin of Yukos - now in Israel. Maybe Khodorkovsky will be implicated in the conspiracy too despite his alibi
    I think the NSY dorks may have other views...
    It's only version now... one of them, if you like....

    Anti Russian leader columns have appeared in serious UK press so a picture is painted to the readers almost of a bandit dictatorship bullying its neighbours and making mischief further afield. Is this reported in Russia and if so, how do the Russian people react? Are British visitors not particularly welcome at present?
    I can say that Russians reacts like "A dog is barking and caravan is going forward".
    I'm not going to start large dispute about politics of Russia. I only can say just now majority of Russian population is sure we are moving in right direction despite of all that propagandistic PR actions of western mass-media.
    (Btw, Berezovsky has much expereince in organising dark PR....)

    Who told you Britts are not welcomed here?
    Arrive and test our relations....

    Leave a comment:

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