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(OT) Who's Killing Russia's News Reporters?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dave T View Post
    The poisoning of Litvinenko - now a british citizen - is a big story on UK TV news and was subject of a big article and leader column in a major broadsheet - The Daily Telegraph.
    If Intelligence would like to posion anybody, they would employ something more effective...

    Various scenarios are considered including Putin silencing a critic, intelligence services sending out a message to discourage defectors, someone setting out to discredit Putin / Russia.
    Too stupid scenarios...

    Who knows the truth in this world of ex-spies, exiled oligarchs, secret services, terrorists, murderers.
    Be so kind.
    Thispuppet of Berezovsky ran away from here long ago...
    He's absolutely unaware about modern realities here...
    He' like a "Difficault to catch Joe" (which can't be caught because nobody wants him)

    Renegade British Intelligence Services agents have in the past gone public and "blown the whistle" to allege immoral plans, and have been ridiculed and prosecuted.
    I understand Litvinenko took similar action to expose a planned assassination of Berezovsky.
    When Litvinenko loudly decalted "planned assassination of Berezovsky" he had been his puppet.
    I myself am not death of Berezovsky because he's among the most evel figures in modern Russian history....
    his fairy-tales how democratic he is are not more than empty words, not approved by anything else....

    He was prosecuted and acquitted twice and convicted in his absence at the third attempt. Litvinenko apparently also claimed FSB were behind 9.11 and al-Qua'eda seniors were FSB agents, and that Moscow appartment bombings were done by FSB to frame Chechens and give an excuse for war. Is he a fantasist or well connected, well-informed exile / defector / traitor seeking to expose the truth, latterly about Politkovskaya murder?
    I think such declarations must be studied not by lie detector, but by psychiatrists.
    Behind those declaration one can evidently trace style of Chechen terrorists whose especial beloved way was to blame russian secret services for those terroristic acts they (I mean Chechens) had performed.
    Well-known Dr. Hoebbels's style "More violent lie is the most believable"

    Former KGB Colonel and exile Gordievsky implies he knows the identity of the poisoner, now back in Moscow, and claims it wouldn't have happened without permission of Putin whereas the British spy writer Nigel West does not think FSB would be involved.
    Oh, yesssss... Old traitors always know everything!....
    Even if they escaped from justice dozens years ago!!!
    I believe he can know posoner, who most likely is among surrounding of Berezovsky, who wants to use "used chess piece" once more

    Whatever the case, it is going to be a tough investigation for the Metroplitan Police who have their hands pretty full already with terrorist plots and a Prime Minister to interview!
    All traces leads to Berezovsky...
    If we again remember story with "poisoning" of Yushchenko, (with Berezovskiy supllying him during elections) poisoning of Litvinenko can be treated as a trend...

    Andrey is correct about negative reporting, in UK at least, about Russia. All the reports are of Putin increasingly behaving as a dictator with plan to hold Europe to ransom over energy resources.
    What a stupidity

    Then there are the reports about interference in Ukraine, Georgia, about rise of Far Right Groups etc.
    Well, so, when western organisations iworks with Georgia, Ukraine et.al. it's of course welcomed. But when Russians (who are connected with those nations through all their history) do something similar, it's interpreted like "imperial trends"... Nice conception, indeed....

    There is little to promote Russia as a holiday destination! Because of what I see in the media in UK, am always interested to see very different views expressed by Russians on the forum.
    Russians are rather different...Be sure..
    I can meet absolute different opinions on many subjects...

    Anyway, it took a long time but the Markov story eventually came out and that was a state sponsored assassination. Time will tell in the present case.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #32
      Must be tough in Russia, friends constantly murdering friends to make enemies look bad for no gain other than some sympathy. If you guys do this to your friends I don't even want to know what you do with your enemies. Oh wait, I do have a good idea what you do with your enemies once you get your hands on them. Ugh, I better keep that in mind when the elections come up.

      [heavy sarasm mode on] Andrey and Amvas aren't you afraid that someday one of you might want to kill the other to make say me look bad and get some sympathy? [heavy sarasm mode off]

      BTW I don't think Putin had Politovskaya killed. She was too marginalised for that and most of the journos are already very afraid and keeping the party line. I do think she was killed by somebody who is comfortable to have enough pull with Putin to be safe. Perhaps that Chechnyan president.
      Last edited by pp(est); 22 Nov 06, 04:16.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
        Must be tough in Russia, friends constantly murdering friends to make enemies look bad for no gain other than some sympathy. If you guys do this to your friends I don't even want to know what you do with your enemies. Oh wait, I do have a good idea what you do with your enemies once you get your hands on them. Ugh, I better keep that in mind when the elections come up.
        Spare me from such a friends, and from enemies I will escape myself

        [heavy sarasm mode on] Andrey and Amvas aren't you afraid that someday one of you might want to kill the other to make say me look bad and get some sympathy? [heavy sarasm mode off]
        [sarkasm mode] Why need me to be afraid of something? [/sarkasm mode]

        BTW I don't think Putin had Politovskaya killed. She was too marginalised for that and most of the journos are already very afraid and keeping the party line. I do think she was killed by somebody who is comfortable to have enough pull with Putin to be safe. Perhaps that Chechnyan president.
        Sometimes "God deliver me from fools"...

        Regards,
        Alex
        Last edited by amvas; 22 Nov 06, 05:50.
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #34
          About the poisoning.\ and Western russo-phobia.

          If Litvinenko was killed during a traffic accident (by ordinary bus) so Western mass media would scream that really it was done by the Soviet Intelligence which wanted to show it as an ordinary accident because the Russians don't want to show that they did it.

          If Litvinenko was killed by a extravagant method (by an explosion od a small atomic bomb in his pocket) so Western mass media would scream that really it was done by the Soviet Intelligence which wanted to show to everyone that those were Russians who did it to scare the remaining "opposition".

          The Russians are guilty in any case whatever happened because they are Russians.

          All the stories of Litvinenko, Berezovsky and so on are FALSE. Only the Westerners continue to believe it because it follows to Western phobia about strong Russia. It is a lie only, remember about it.

          I told earlier who Berezovky is and who is Litvinenko.

          The Russian opinion is that Berezovsky himselfd organised the attampt to kill Litvinenko to tell later that the Russians did it.

          The first question in any investigation is "To whom it was advantageous?" Was it advantageous to Putin to order to kill Politkovskaya right in the time when Putin was moving to Western Europe to have important negotiations? It was easier to do it AFTER he would returned?

          Comment


          • #35
            Andrey, I sincerely doubt if Litvinenko would have been in a car accident it would have caused any ruccus. I see no precedent for that. Can you find any example of the evil western mass media claiming that a car accident killing a Russian is handywork of KGB?

            KGB/FSB/their lackies using poison for assasination - there is precedent for that. KGB/FSB using car bombs - there is precedent for that too.

            Litvinenko was poisoned by unknown poison by unknown manner. Something which happens very rarely in this world and almost never without foul play being involved. Litvinenko just happened to be a defector, a vocal critic of Putin/FSB and investigating what happened to Politovskaya. I guess it was another case of poisoning by friends to get some sympathy going. Seriously, it might be that Putin wasn't directly involved (and he definitely has several layers of plausible denial), but it almost certainly was somebody close enough.

            Andrey, everybody in Europe already knows Putin is effectively a dictator. He could benefit by killing Politovskaya off at this moment to show any who might harbor thought of dissent what the west will do if he did use ultimate measures against his critics - the answer is absolutely nothing, something he knew and something we in the west know, but perhaps something some idealist in Russia didn't want to believe before. This is just hypothetical though - as I said I think a more likely suspect is that president of Chechnya.
            Last edited by pp(est); 22 Nov 06, 07:20.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
              Andrey, everybody in Europe already knows Putin is effectively a dictator. He could benefit by killing Politovskaya off at this moment to show any who might harbor thought of dissent what the west will do if he did use ultimate measures against his critics - the answer is absolutely nothing, something he knew and something we in the west know, but perhaps something some idealist in Russia didn't want to believe before. This is just hypothetical though - as I said I think a more likely suspect is that president of Chechnya.
              I didn't expect to listen something other from you.

              Fortunately, you are not the voice of the whole Europe.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                president of Chechnya.
                - you have used this loose concept in 2 comments of this topick,
                it is intresting: Who is "president of Chechnya" as the concrect person (name and second name) on your opinion?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by kpush View Post
                  - you have used this loose concept in 2 comments of this topick,
                  it is intresting: Who is "president of Chechnya" as the concrect person (name and second name) on your opinion?
                  uhh, my bad, I rushed ahead of things, I meant the chairman of the government or whats he calls himself now - Kadyrov.

                  Andrey, yes I am but my own voice. The voice of Europe is the evil russophobic mass media.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
                    I didn't expect to listen something other from you.

                    Fortunately, you are not the voice of the whole Europe.
                    pp(est) told about mythical "Europe" the same way as the "president of Chechnya"
                    or the have two different Europs.

                    IAE author put into use: "everybody" - universal quantifier so he has shift discussion farther from concrete.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I'm not Andrey, but I'll make some comments

                      Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                      Andrey, I sincerely doubt if Litvinenko would have been in a car accident it would have caused any

                      ruccus. I see no precedent for that. Can you find any example of the evil western mass media claiming that a car accident

                      killing a Russian is handywork of KGB?
                      So, you suppose western Intelligence has "reserved" car accidents for themselves and all cases of poisoning initially left

                      for Russians, eh?
                      Don't you think such a scenario is too primitive?
                      Every serious secret service uses that ways to eliminate unnecessary people, which is more suitable for 100% guaranteed

                      effect. (Only don't tell me that western services are so democratic to avoid this way. In necessity all dirty ways are well

                      remembered by every secret service...).
                      If secret service would like to poison anybody, be sure, he would be already dead...

                      KGB/FSB/their lackies using poison for assasination - there is

                      precedent
                      It was a single case known in history...Btw it was initiative of bulgarian communists, but not KGB

                      for that.
                      This case is not proved. So, with the same probability we can assume both Litvinenko and Yushchenko were poisoned by

                      Berezovsky. As both of them were connected with this evil figure this scenario is more than probable.
                      Again, if secret services would like to poison anybody, he would be already dead...


                      KGB/FSB using car bombs - there is precedent for that too.
                      First of all Yandarbiev never was a president... Maybe only a president of his own ass...
                      He never was elected by democratic elections, because in 1991-1999 there were no conditions for any elections.
                      He was high-ranked terrorist.
                      I think nobody here including yourself wouln't be against exploding Bin Laden even if he travelled in some large town, eh?
                      In any case nobody proved it was work of FSB. All inculpatory evidences in that case were too weak

                      Litvinenko was poisoned by unknown poison by unknown manner. Something which happens very rarely in this world and almost

                      never without foul play being involved. Litvinenko just happened to be a defector, a vocal critic of Putin/FSB and

                      investigating what happened to Politovskaya. I guess it was another case of poisoning by friends to get some sympathy going.

                      Seriously, it might be that Putin wasn't directly involved (and he definitely has several layers of plausible denial), but it

                      almost certainly was somebody close enough.
                      Ja,ja... Who can poison poor traitor? Only evil FSB...There are nobody else in this world, who can do such a horrible

                      crime....
                      Btw, nearly the same Litvinenko told when Yushenkov - a leader of one small "democratic" party was killed in Moscow a few

                      yeears ago. He flammably blamed FSB and personally Putin for doing this with all his arrogance.
                      And what was found later? That Yushenkov's death was ordered by his brother-in-arms co-leader of the same party, but who had

                      been controlled by Berezovsky. You see, who are fond of political murders?

                      Andrey, everybody in Europe already knows Putin is effectively a dictator.
                      Such a declaration must be proved.
                      I can't see any proofs of this statement besides that silly stories, maiden by western mass media for housewives.
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        oh well, perhaps this is just another one of doc Sinister's nefarious plots...

                        Killing friends to get sympathy... I can understand the concept of doing evil things to get an excuse to do something else, but sympathy?!? We western people tend to use ads with puppies and kids for that, sometimes little kittens too... You guys are just hilarious.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Oh well here it comes this and another thread or two:

                          It's almost funny how you can't discuss even if you disagree, sorry guys.

                          I will add, I wonder if enough credit is given to the Brits and Commonwealth over there in Russia (and the Free Poles, Czechs and French) for holding the line for a year alone. I am well aware of why the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, and am not trying to compare with what the Soviets faced on their front when it came (and it was the main front, many smart Westerners know that). Just musing. I also understand the mistakes made by the Western Powers before the war...too bad I wonder what would have happened had an effective collective security alliance been formed. I will finish the book I have started and discuss it here on another thread.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Fascinating thread! Perhaps we should stick to discussing WW2?
                            However, a few thoughts.
                            I presume that whoever poisoned Litvinenko - assuming he didn't do it himself to gain sympathy or frame another - knew the effects that would ocvcur and didn't intend instant death. Like Yushenko perhaps, or the case of the 3 Rumanian Journalists who took 3 months to die after their desks were contaminated with plutonium dust left by the Securitate allegedly. So the lack of a kill does not necesdsarily eliminate FSB action.
                            Maybe the suggestion of Berezovsky's agents has merit, though I don't understand the motive.
                            Presumably the Russians Litvinenko breakfasted with are top of the suspect list. It is reported that one is ex KGB, now back in Moscow and willing to make a statement. Perhaps the out of touch traitor Gordievsky is in the know this time? Interesting how language and opinion changes with different perspectives. The British saying is one man's meat is another man's poison(oops). So one man's conscience driven, courageous and knowledgeable defector is another man's criminal traitorous lunatic. Andrey did praise those who serve their countries in this area of work... Likewise the courageous freedom fighters called Taliban during the Soviet foray into Afganistan are now terrorists as they attack British Army in Helmand.
                            I'm with with pp(est) in that a bus flattening Litvinenko would not have caused suspicions about Russian involvement in the wat that the use of an exotic poison following a meeting with 2 Russians - one a former Security Officer have.
                            I don't understand why Alex is so dismissive of Western European fear of Russian leadership exploiting West dependance on energy resources. Hasn't it already happened once? Why wouldn't a strong leader use the cards he has been dealt to favour his country?
                            I hope and expect that investigations will throw sufficient light on what has happened in this case, that, if there is insufficient evidence to prosecute, there will still be enough information for UK Government to remonstrate with any Governments or Agencies involved.
                            Perhaps there are many Russian exiles in London and UK in general - not all football club owners who may be on hit-lists and vulnerable if such action is not taken.
                            BTW, maybe reports in UK of repressive legislation, closure of NGOs, elimination of dissidents/ opposition by means of exile, imprisonment, or death, in Russia, may be entirely inaccurate, and Putin may indeed be a good leader who has brought stability and economic progress as his fans on this site suggest. With my limited knowledge I can't form much of an opinion. History will be the judge perhaps. The 2008 elections may provide an indication of the true extent of democracy in Russia maybe?
                            P.S. popular UK TV fiction series "Spooks" about MI5 usually has KGB types doing rather more clinical hits with several shots tro the head. Most of the programs have stories about corruption within the organisation and UK Government rather than plots from abroad - indicative of the loss of moral authority of the West in recent years?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                              oh well, perhaps this is just another one of doc Sinister's nefarious plots...

                              Killing friends to get sympathy... I can understand the concept of doing evil things to get an excuse to do something else, but sympathy?!? We western people tend to use ads with puppies and kids for that, sometimes little kittens too... You guys are just hilarious.
                              It looks like you don't know history.

                              The Nazies did the same when they invaded to Poland in 1939. They dressed a few SS-men in Polish military uniform and those SS-men attacked GERMAN radio-station in Gleivits to show to the World that the Poles did it.

                              And Litvinenko is not Berezovsky's friend. Berezovky "bought" him some years ago. He is a venal FSB official.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I feel the course of discussion will force me to close this thread soon.
                                Simply I need more time for WWII subject and this topic becomes taking too much time from this pleasure
                                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                                Comment

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