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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    One minor point on the nuances of A,erican English & military terms.

    AGF> DKR - is this a military police unit involved in road control?
    AGF> Maybe call it 'military police traffic control company.

    Ok, I'll translate it as "Traffic control company".
    As there were no military police here, I will not confuse anybody
    introducing this term.

    For this function we would either write "Traffic Control" if refering to a organization or a comand post with this function. Or, use a official them "Road Master" when refering to the organization or individual controling a traffic sector or organization. Depends on the exact meaning you are trying to translate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Fraser
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey View Post
    I don't know what fugasnyi ognemet is. I know what fugasnyi shell (bomb is).
    Late coming into this discussion (several years!).

    I recently ran across reference to the first flame-tanks OT-34 from 1941, equipped with "FOGy". In context, these appear to be incendiary cartridges affixed to the outside of the hull, in a long square housing that was photographed in winter 1941-42.

    The point is that they were fixed, yes, but in a small form they were mobile on a tank or other vehicle platform. They may have been fired (launched) by explosive charge, but the weapon itself was an incendiary fluid.

    The reference is in T-34-76 i T-34-57 v boyakh za Moskvu.

    Cheers
    Scott Fraser

    Leave a comment:


  • Kardon
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey

    2. There is a commonly used English term that is considered the analogue of a Russian term.

    Example strelkovyi - rifle
    Not so. My Russian-English/English-Russian Military Dictionary, published by Tekhnicheskie slovari, Moscow, 2002, lists the following:

    strelkovyi batal'on - rifle battalion
    strelkovyi tir - smallbore range
    strelkovaya kartochka - range card
    strelkovaya stupen' - fire step
    strelkovaya yacheika - weapon pit
    strelkovoe delo - musketry
    strelkovoe oruzhie - small arms

    And vzvod can mean platoon or cocking, as in vzvod urdarnika - inner cocking lever, or boevoy vzvod - a cocking stud

    I agree with rota, but then again, I didn't say that NO words had one-to-one correspondence, just few words, as you prove yourself above.

    So according my opinion Main Command is closer to the Russian term.
    You can think what you like, but I'm telling you that if you say 'main command', you will not be clear and will have to explain it, at which time the reader will think "Oh, he means High Command."

    2) you spoke that 'main' was not used in the West but R.N.Armstrong used 'main' in his version so it looks like the term of 'main' is being used now.
    You really need to read my postings closer. I am talking about the narrow example of High Command. Heck, I said myself in my last posting that Main Directorate or Department is acceptable.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Thx everybody for your comments. I'm not so quick to process all of them. But I'm trying....

    As for terms "high command"/"main command"
    It think in our case they are equivalent.
    The only one difference is you translate Russian term "Glavnoye" as "Main" and "Verkhovnoye" as "High"
    Generally speaking "Verkhovnoye" IMHO means subordinated to "Verkhovnyi Glavnocomanduyushchiy" (Supreme Command-in-Chief, i.e. J.Stalin)
    "Glavnoye" command if I'm corret ws subordinated to General Staff.
    In any case it's not too much mistake to use term "High" in application to both cases....

    Andrey, you are right about "fougasse" flame thrower. It was like a land mines, but which could shot with flame.
    Very nice thing for different barrages...

    To R. Armstrong: Thx for your corrections. I'll try to process them

    --
    Also I'm going to include more abbreviations used in maps and OOBs. But not immediately

    Now why some terms are of modern origin, or too early before WWII
    It was not me to gather all of them. I took this table as a basical one from one of Russian sites. That's why it contains some terms, which were not in use during WWII.
    I removed some too modern ones.
    A think it's not too bad to leave some old abbreviations.
    In some memoirs we can trace fate of people from the very beginning of their carrier, i.e. from 1910s-20s. So, I think it is quite useful to have some abbreviations from that time as well.
    --

    Andrey, word "shkrab" (school worker) was used during WWII in some memoirs. If I'm right I saw those in memoirs of Pokryshkin and some others.

    Ok, gentlemen.
    I hope I can proceed with this listing soon

    Regards,
    Alex

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Kardon
    I was using that in relation to High Command. No one says 'main command' that I know of. Certainly glavnyi is translated differently in different contexts. You yourself said it was wrong to use a word for word translation. I agree. The question is whether or not you want to sound correct in English. Few words in different languages have an exact word for word correlation. If you want to sound good in English, glavnyi has to have different translations depending on the context. Sometimes it's 'main', sometimes 'high', sometimes 'chief', sometimes 'cardinal', and sometimes it's even 'principal'. To make matters worse, the translation in American English may be different than in another variety. Worse still, even in two different agencies of the U.S. Government the accepted usage might be different, as in glavnoe upravlenie, which I've heard as Chief Directorate or Main Directorate or Department. But while reasonable people can prefer Chief or Main Directorate or Department, everyone agrees on High Command.
    1) You are right in some scale.

    But it is only for two cases:

    1. There is a complete English analogue of a Russian term.

    Example - rota - company
    vzvod - platoon

    2. There is a commonly used English term that is considered the analogue of a Russian term.

    Example strelkovyi - rifle

    In the other case it is often possible to use a few convertible terms to translate a foreign term. And in this case I suppose that the best choice is to use the exact word-to-word translation.

    For me, I do not see large difference between vysshii and glavnyi, those are approximately the same. But if the Soviets called something glavnoe komandovanie and not vysshee komandovanie I think they had some reasons for that.

    So according my opinion Main Command is closer to the Russian term.

    2) you spoke that 'main' was not used in the West but R.N.Armstrong used 'main' in his version so it looks like the term of 'main' is being used now.

    3) I spoke that to provide a word-to-word translation was not enough. I meant that it was necessary to give more wide description of some difficult terms.

    The difference between Mechanized Cavalry Group and Cavalry-Mechanized Group is a matter of style. I happen to think Amvas's sounds better. Niether is "correct". Every dictionary has subtly different definitions.
    Maybe. But do you suppose that it is possible to change free the order of the words in a type of a unit?

    Good, so what is a fugasnyi ognemet? A high-explosive flamethrower? What is that exactly?
    OK, I have read Amvas's description of fugasnyi ognemet

    In past large amount of explosives were dug in into ground and were used as a large mine. Also a large shell could be used for this purpose. Such a "large mines" was called a 'fugas' in Russian. Later they were replaced by mines.

    A Russian 'fugas' means a large explosive charge hided inside of ground and been used as a mine.

    So fugasnyi ognemet means ognemet-mine.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    I posted some details about "fougasse" flame thrower in separate topic
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...259#post554259

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Kardon
    Good, so what is a fugasnyi ognemet? A high-explosive flamethrower? What is that exactly?
    I don't know what fugasnyi ognemet is. I know what fugasnyi shell (bomb is).

    Leave a comment:


  • Kardon
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    Look on R.N.Armstrongs' message.

    In Russian
    Главный (Glavnyi) = Main
    Высший (vysshii) = High
    Верховный (verkhovnyi) = Supreme

    So, for example, Верховное Главнокомандование = Supreme Main Command.

    Amvas often mixes these terms.
    I was using that in relation to High Command. No one says 'main command' that I know of. Certainly glavnyi is translated differently in different contexts. You yourself said it was wrong to use a word for word translation. I agree. The question is whether or not you want to sound correct in English. Few words in different languages have an exact word for word correlation. If you want to sound good in English, glavnyi has to have different translations depending on the context. Sometimes it's 'main', sometimes 'high', sometimes 'chief', sometimes 'cardinal', and sometimes it's even 'principal'. To make matters worse, the translation in American English may be different than in another variety. Worse still, even in two different agencies of the U.S. Government the accepted usage might be different, as in glavnoe upravlenie, which I've heard as Chief Directorate or Main Directorate or Department. But while reasonable people can prefer Chief or Main Directorate or Department, everyone agrees on High Command.

    I think Amvas's Mechanized Cavalry Group sounds better.
    Look on R.N.Armstrongs' message.
    The difference between Mechanized Cavalry Group and Cavalry-Mechanized Group is a matter of style. I happen to think Amvas's sounds better. Niether is "correct". Every dictionary has subtly different definitions.

    - фугасный (fugasnyi) - explodes a little time AFTER it meets an obstacle. So it penetrates into ground on some depth before it explodes. Such a shell or bomb was used for the destruction of pillboxes, blindages, fox-holes, trenches, and other objects hided on ground. My electronic dictionary translates фугасный as high-explosive.
    Good, so what is a fugasnyi ognemet? A high-explosive flamethrower? What is that exactly?

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Kardon
    As you show in #3, it doesn't just relate to large bureaucratic structures. By the way, does vooruzhenie relate more to weapons than simply equipment?
    Yes. I meant that Amvas called it 'vehicle' and it was wrong.

    As I suppose it was related to EVERYTHING that could move on wheels or tracks with engine. So it was about trucks, cars and tractors also.

    If you're talking about the 1st Polish Army on the Russian-German Front, Amvas's translation is better.
    Amvas also uses the term of ПА - Polish Army. As I suppose it was about ground Polish forces commonly like Soviet Army, Red Army, US Army and so on.

    So an АВП - армия Войска Польского - means an Army formation of Polish Armed forces (as I think Войско Польское means Polish Armed Forces) like the 13th Army, the 62nd Army and so on.

    To the point, the 1st and 2nd Polish Armies fought against the Germans on the Soviet-German Front.

    I've never seen Glavnoe Komandovanie translated as "Main". High Command is better.
    Look on R.N.Armstrongs' message.

    In Russian
    Главный (Glavnyi) = Main
    Высший (vysshii) = High
    Верховный (verkhovnyi) = Supreme

    So, for example, Верховное Главнокомандование = Supreme Main Command.

    Amvas often mixes these terms.

    Amvas's "armored cutter" is more military-sounding. Alternatives are "armored launch" or "armored gunboat" (assuming it has guns!)
    A Soviet 'bronekater' (БКА) was a very small armored ship armed by a T-34 gun turret and a few machine guns. It was as small as a towboat or a mine-sweeper. It was widely used in rivers.

    An English gunboat is translated on Russian as канонерская лодка (kanonerskaia lodka). As I suppose it was as large as a desroyer.

    I think Amvas's Mechanized Cavalry Group sounds better.
    Look on R.N.Armstrongs' message.

    The English naval term "sub-chaser" would be perfect.
    Maybe.

    But it it is not so easy because there were also corvettes, escort destroyers and other types of ships. I don't know exactly to which of these types MO was closer.

    You're getting this from FOG? If so, I think that fugasniy has another meaning, as I've said in a previous post. Unless the flamethrower has a high-explosive element? Maybe it shoots napalm bombs?
    The Russian system of the types of non-anti-armor shells and bombs is the following:

    - осколочный (oskolochnyi) - explodes when it just meets an obstacle. It makes splinters (oskolki in Russian) whose purpose is to hit everything around.
    It was used mainly against infantry, personnel of artillery and other non-armored objects on ground.

    - фугасный (fugasnyi) - explodes a little time AFTER it meets an obstacle. So it penetrates into ground on some depth before it explodes. Such a shell or bomb was used for the destruction of pillboxes, blindages, fox-holes, trenches, and other objects hided on ground.

    My electronic dictionary translates фугасный as high-explosive.
    Last edited by Andrey; 06 Aug 06, 23:08.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Alex,

    I cannot open your original list, and I have not spent any time for all those in the above responses, but I have some different abbreviations from Defense Intelligence Agency Handbook:

    VNUS - voiska vnutrennei sluzhby = internal security troops

    VOSO - 1) (sluzhba) voennykh soobshchenii = military transportation (services); 2) sluzhba voennykh coobeshchenii = Central Military Transportation Directorate

    VPP [can have a number of meanings-all recognized]
    1) vzbodnyi patronnyi punkt = platoon ammunition supply point
    2) bzletno-posadochnaya polosa = runway (Aviation)
    3) voenno-prodovol'stvennyi punkt = military ration point
    4) voiskovoi perevyazochnyi punkt = military dressing point (medical)
    5) vremennyi peregruzochnyi punkt = temporary transshipment point
    6) vspomogatel'nyi pelengatornyi punkt = auxiliary position finding station
    7) vynosnoi priemnyi punkt = auxiliary receiving point
    8) vysokoomnyi vol'tmetr polunprovodnikovyi = transistorized high-resistance voltmeter

    GBTU - Glavnoe bronetankovoe ypravlenie - Main Tank Directorate

    DZOT - derevo-zemlyanaya ognevaya tochka = earth and timber emplacement

    KMG - Cavalry-Mechanized Group (cavalry came first as base unit, augmented by mechanized)

    Alex, if you have some specific concerns, post them. With some time, I can spot check some more.

    rna

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Thx for your assistanse. I made some changes in the text.
    Andrey, you are right, this list needs much corrections, but it's better than none.
    Some extra-terms from the Civil war and post-war times I left because I have some reasons (not CIA help )

    More later...

    Regards,
    Alex

    Leave a comment:


  • Kardon
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    2. АБТ/АБТ - автобронетанковый – it is not about vehicle. That is an adjective which is applied to large bureaucratic structures like “department” related to armored equipment . So I translate it “Armored”

    3. АБТВ – автобронетанковое вооружение – Armored equipment
    As you show in #3, it doesn't just relate to large bureaucratic structures. By the way, does vooruzhenie relate more to weapons than simply equipment?

    5. АВП – Армия Войска Польского – Army of Polish Army (Polish Armed Forces ?)
    If you're talking about the 1st Polish Army on the Russian-German Front, Amvas's translation is better.

    6. АРГК – Artillery of the reserve of Main Command
    I've never seen Glavnoe Komandovanie translated as "Main". High Command is better.

    10 БКА – бронекатер – armored boat
    Amvas's "armored cutter" is more military-sounding. Alternatives are "armored launch" or "armored gunboat" (assuming it has guns!)

    11 ВВС – Air Forces
    If it's a singular organization you're talking about, use Air Force

    23 ГПУ –Государственное Политическое управление – State Political Agency (Soviet security service name in the 20th-30th between ChK and NKVD) (примечание - Главное политическое управление - ГлавПУР)
    I think it's usually translated as State Political Directorate.

    32 КМГ – Horse-Mechanized Group
    I think Amvas's Mechanized Cavalry Group sounds better.

    36 МО – морской охотник (?) –sea hunter (Soviet small anti-submarine ship)
    The English naval term "sub-chaser" would be perfect.

    39 РВГК – резерв верховного главнокомандования – reserve of Supreme Main Command

    40 РГК – reserve of Main Command
    Again, substitute "High" for "Main"

    46 СУ – Self-propelled gun (прим – AT Self-propelled gun - ИСУ)
    good

    51 фугасный – high-explosive
    You're getting this from FOG? If so, I think that fugasniy has another meaning, as I've said in a previous post. Unless the flamethrower has a high-explosive element? Maybe it shoots napalm bombs?

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    1. уап - учебный авиационный (артиллерийский) полк - учебный авиационный/артиллерийский полк

    2. АБТ/АБТ - автобронетанковый – it is not about vehicle. That is an adjective which is applied to large bureaucratic structures like “department” related to armored equipment . So I translate it “Armored”

    3. АБТВ – автобронетанковое вооружение – Armored equipment

    4. АБТМ - автобронетанковая2 мастерская – I am not sure it is about one vehicle. It can be about aset of vehicles.

    5. АВП – Армия Войска Польского – Army of Polish Army (Polish Armed Forces ?)

    6. АРГК – Artillery of the reserve of Main Command

    7. ТВД – театр военных действий - Theatre of operations

    8. ОКАРТУ – окружное артиллерийское управление – district artillery department

    9. АХЧ – административно-хозяйственная часть – a unit’s administrative department

    10 БКА – бронекатер – armored boat

    11 ВВС – Air Forces

    12 ВДВ - Airborne troops

    13 ВК – Supreme Command

    14 ВМН - extreme penalty

    15 ВНУС - ?

    16 военрук – teacher of military education in a school

    17 военспец – Military Specialist, was used during Civil War and meant a former officer serving in Red Army

    18 военком – Militatry Commissar – chief of a military commisarriat who is responsible for the organization of the mobilization actions in his area of responsibility.

    19 ГАЗ – Gorkiy Automobile Plant automobile

    20 ГБТУ – Main Armored Department

    21 ГВО – city/town veterinary department

    22 ГВФ – Civial Air Fleet (Civil Aviation)

    23 ГПУ –Государственное Политическое управление – State Political Agency (Soviet security service name in the 20th-30th between ChK and NKVD) (примечание - Главное политическое управление - ГлавПУР)

    24 ГСОВГ – Group of Soviet occupation troops in Germany

    25 Главком – Commander-in-Chief
    26 ДЗОТ – долговременная земляная огневая точка

    27 ДШК – it is not large-calibre machine-gun commonly, it is a type of Soviet heavy machine-gun

    28 ДальВО – Far-Eastern Military District

    29 ЗКРС - ?

    30 земотдел – soil department

    31 ИТЛ – prison labor camp

    32 КМГ – Horse-Mechanized Group

    33 кол(нем) –колония

    34 МБР – Naval Short-range scout plane

    35 МГУ – powerful loud-speaker installation

    36 МО – морской охотник (?) –sea hunter (Soviet small anti-submarine ship)

    37 ППШ – PPSh - Sub-machine gun of (designed by) Shpagin

    38 ПСР – партия эсэры

    39 РВГК – резерв верховного главнокомандования – reserve of Supreme Main Command

    40 РГК – reserve of Main Command

    41 РО РКВД – Regional Section...

    42 РОА – Russian Liberation Army (Vlasov’s pro-German trooops in WWII)

    43 САМ – Stationary Aviation Repair Installation\ Workshop

    44 СГВ – Northern Group of troops (Soviet troops group in Poland during the Cold War)

    45 СНК – Soviet of People Commisars i.e. Soviet government in 10th-50th

    46 СУ – Self-propelled gun (прим – AT Self-propelled gun - ИСУ)

    47 сельком – сельский комитет – village committee

    48 стр. Rifle (прим – пехотный – пех.)

    49 УВВС – Department of Air Forces

    50 УФ - ?

    51 фугасный – high-explosive

    52 ЦБ МПСР - ? это по эсэров

    53 ЦГВ - Central Group of troops (Soviet troops group in Czechoslovakia during the Cold War)

    54 ЧВС - Member of Military Council (Commissar of large scale army formation (army, front, fleet))

    55 Шкраб – Member of school personnel (I dp not understand how it is related to Red Army?????)

    56 ЮГВ - Southern Group of troops (Soviet troops group in Hungary during the Cold War)

    Those are my remarks after cursory looking on it.

    Common impression – it is a very raw material containing a lot of mistakes

    Some terms are not related neither Red nor Soviet army (like ПСР и шкраб??????) Also if to describe “ПСР” so it is necessary to give its much more known (and much more widely used) name in Russia – ‘эсэры’.

    There is a mixture of Civil war, pre-WWI, WWII, after-WWII and modern military terms.

    Question – what is the reason to give modern Russian terms? How are they related to WWII? Is it some help to CIA experts - ;-)?

    This list is not complete. For example, there are a lot of the Civil War terms here but I haven’t found there such term as ‘РВС’. It is only one example.

    Also it is necessary to provide many more comments. It is completely wrong to provide only word-to-word translations of Soviet terms. It is necessary to explain what they mean.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kardon
    replied
    Originally posted by amvas

    DZOT means the same as DOT. but in our terms DOT is maiden from
    concrete, or other "heavy" materials and can be small enough, or very
    big.
    DZOT is maiden from ground, wood and other "light" materials. It's
    "lite" version of DOT Often it's smaller than DOT
    Right, but maiden means a young woman, like a deva or devitsa. You mean 'made'.

    Really? So, officer - chief of HQ is called Chief of staff, true?
    The chief of staff runs the HQ, takes care of the details of orders, administrative stuff, etc., and enables the commanding general to get on with the fighting. I think it's the same job in all armies.

    It's a aircraft bomb, using for illumination.
    Does "illuminating flare" means such a bomb?
    Or some other term like its artillery equivalent "starshell" exists?
    A bomb is something that explodes. An illuminating flare, or starshell, just burns very brighly and has a parachute to slow its descent. If that's what you're talking about, then illuminating flare, or illumination round, or starshell, are all the same as far as I know.

    Leave a comment:


  • amvas
    replied
    Hi, Kardon

    Thx for your corrections
    My comments:

    AGF> Here is the message that has just been posted:
    AGF> ***************
    AGF> I would say this:

    AGF> Azov Naval Flotilla, not Navy
    Ok


    AGF> Boezapas is ammunition? Like in boepripasy? My dictionary says
    AGF> "battle reserve". Maybe "Reserve ammunition"?
    "Boyezapas" is synonym of "boyepripasy", it simply means the whole
    storage/loading of ammunition, when "boyepripas(y)" can be applied to one, ore
    more round, cartridge, shell, missile...

    AGF> Volga Naval Flotilla, not Military Flotilla
    done

    AGF> VOSO - I'd just say "military communications"
    done

    AGF> VPP - landing strip
    done

    AGF> VRID/VRIO/IO - depending on the context, just saying "acting" is
    AGF> sufficient, as in "acting head of X"
    I'll leave it as it is...

    AGF> VCh - I thought this was always a high-security type of comms, not simply high-frenquency.
    Ok, I'll make a remark. Generally speaking it was only one sort of it.
    So, in this case they means the same.

    AGF> glavnoye upravlenie is often translated by "Main", but chief is
    AGF> reasonable too. It does run into the problem of possible
    AGF> confusion the actual 'chief' or person who heads the department.
    Ok, it was hard to replace all

    AGF> DZOT - where did maiden come from?? Very funny! You could just
    AGF> leave that out, although do DZOTy get very big? To me a pillbox
    AGF> is something small, with just one or two machine guns. I could be wrong, though.
    DZOT means the same as DOT. but in our terms DOT is maiden from
    concrete, or other "heavy" materials and can be small enough, or very
    big.
    DZOT is maiden from ground, wood and other "light" materials. It's
    "lite" version of DOT Often it's smaller than DOT

    AGF> DKR - is this a military police unit involved in road control?
    AGF> Maybe call it 'military police traffic control company.
    Ok, I'll translate it as "Traffic control company".
    As there were no military police here, I will not confuse anybody
    introducing this term.

    [quote]
    AGF> KMG - you left out 'group'
    [quote]

    thx

    AGF> NSh - Chief of staff
    Really? So, officer - chief of HQ is called Chief of staff, true?

    AGF> ROT - manpack flamethrower, or man-portable flamethrower?
    Knapsack-type Flamethrower, to keep exact term.

    AGF> SAB - illuminating flare?
    It's a aircraft bomb, using for illumination.
    Does "illuminating flare" means such a bomb?
    Or some other term like its artillery equivalent "starshell" exists?

    AGF> SGA - Northern Army Group or Army Group North if you're talking
    AGF> about Herresgruppe Nord (or however you spell it)
    In this case it's not Herresgruppe Nord. so, I'll use Northern Army Group

    AGF> f - you mean fund, as in the holdings of an archive? I'd keep it as 'fund'.
    True, thx

    AGF> FAB - General purpose bomb
    Thx

    AGF> FOG - what differs this from a simple ognemet? My dictionary
    AGF> says 'static flamethrower', as in one which is not mobile.
    Hmmm.... I really don't know its equivalent in English, as it was
    specific type of flamethrower, which differed from ordinary
    flamethrowers.

    AGF> A very good job!!

    Thx



    --
    Best regards
    Alex

    Leave a comment:

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