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This could have made Germany defeat the Soviet Union!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Redwolf View Post
    How do they do that without diverting resources from tank production and tank crew training or from submarine production and submarine crew training?

    ? You dont seriously believe that they didnt have an aircrew training programme?

    Just look at the figures the difference is negligible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaf...hs_(1940-1945)

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    • #17
      No a thousand or two thousand aircraft would not have helped Hitlers plan very much. His armys ran out of supplies in the autum, and infantry men as well.

      Nearly half the trucks they started with were broken and the parts to repair them unavailable.

      The artillery had too little ammunition Only by concentrating the remaining in a few sectors could the attack be sustained & then they were shooting one or two units of fire where four or five were appropriate.

      The tank divsions had less than a quarter of the panzers still usefull.

      Restoration of the railroads was insuffcient and the weight of supply brought forward was less than half calculated to be required.

      Over 800,000 Wehrmacht soldiers were dead or wounded. Thats from a entire starting force of three million, a 26% loss mostly in infantry.

      No. Hitlers plan was quite hopeless against the USSR of 1941. Perhaps if there had been a weak leader, if the Russians really had abandodned resistance. But they kept fighting & rendered the nazi plans useless.

      Rather than aircraft another 50,000 or 60,000 good trucks, and hundreds more railroad locomotives and related equipment would have helped the nazis. Enough transport then to bring forward another 500,000 tons of artillery ammunition, & fuel in similar proportion, plus winter uniforms & old weather lubricants for the vehicals. Horses too. The Wehrmacht depended on horses to move 80% of its artillery in 1941. By November entire battlaions of cannon were imobilized for lack of healthy animals.

      Of course none of the trucks were available. Occupied Europe had been sacked for its auto transport from early 1941 to supply the Wehrmacht & Luftwaffe, and it still may have been only half of what was needed.

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      • #18
        Here is a alternate history for all the fans of the nazis. What if the Soviet government had read its intellegence reports correctly & taken action.

        What if then had the reservists begain their mobilization in May or even April, so as to have been properly fallen in on their equipment & conducted a few weeks or training?

        What if then the ammunition had been distributed to the battalions defending the forward zone on the border?

        What if those battalions had been in the trenches & cannon revetments on June 21st instead of their barracks?

        What if the Red Army reserves had been deployed in depth, occupying good positions for defense & counter attack?

        What if the Red Air force had its fighters take off just before dawn & the antiaircraft guns manned?

        What if the Red AF bombers had been disperesed to camoflaged auxillary airfields, with bombs at hand ready to strike back?

        What if the Soviet submarine force had taken positions for combat patrols in Axis waters the week before 21 June?

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        • #19
          If the Soviets were ready, then they could launch a spoiling attack or let the Germans wear themselves out by attacking first then hit back.

          Either way the Germans would not have been near Smolensk, let alone Moscow in Dec. Well, maybe Smolensk, but the German losses would have been even higher than they were.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by grognard View Post
            The Germans actually used fewer stukas against Russia rhan they did against France in May 1940, and only used about 58% of the Luftwaffe. However, just more planes would not have done it.
            If Britian had fallen or signed a peace treaty in 1940, then the Germans could have had many more planes, 2 more panzer divisions because the Afrika Korps would not exist and could have deployed u-boats in the Baltic, up north and the Black sea. Also, The Bismark would be able to attack the Soviet fleet and add it's guns to the seige of Leningrad.

            Students paras wopuld not have fallen in Crete, so they would be available also.

            Also, assume that without Britain still fighting, the Balkans remained quiet. So Hitler attacks a week or two earlier--at most-- depending on when everything dried with more forces and no military sideshows.

            IMHO all that still would not be enough to finish off the Russians. Why not? Two reasons. First, German wargames showed that 24 panzer divisions were needed or panzers would have to be diverted from one AG to another to reach specified goals like Leningrad, Moscow or Rostov. Historically, with 17 Pz. divisions, that's what happened. Guderian goes south, the AGN panzers go toward Moscow once Guderian comes back to the center, and the Russians still hold out. Also, the Germans underestimated soviet military strength and industrial capacity. Had Hitler realized Guderian's assessment of russian indurstry was correct, even he would have realized they couldn't win. He did say so to Guderian at some point. (1942?)
            And...less fighters than in Britain..only 400 to Russia...1 per 3K. But, as Goering has stated..."why make more aircraft when all we produce is 100 aircrews a month?". The muddy season did not end in1941 until mid-June. Pre-war wargaming showed that if the Germans turned south to trap those armies, they would lose the war. Hitler had them do that anyway. Goes to show you what happens when a civilian leader commands the army. Can you read that George Bush?

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            • #21
              Even if Bush read it, he probably wouldn't believe it applied to him.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by grognard View Post
                Even if Bush read it, he probably wouldn't believe it applied to him.
                And for good reason. W Bush accquired extensive military experince in the National Guard. All those weekend drills he attended....

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                • #23
                  Hitler had military experience also, as a corporal.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Slug View Post
                    ... do you think those planes and their capabilities could have brought victory to Germany over the Soviet Union?..
                    no,
                    in russia's case the planes were not so important.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                      And for good reason. W Bush accquired extensive military experince in the National Guard. All those weekend drills he attended....
                      What weekend drills??? The air unit could not find him....he claimed he was in college....but when the college was called...they said they never heard of him. He was AWOL for over 30 days...that classifies him as a deserter.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Barbarossa View Post
                        What weekend drills??? The air unit could not find him....he claimed he was in college....but when the college was called...they said they never heard of him. He was AWOL for over 30 days...that classifies him as a deserter.
                        Nice try but…oh why bother.
                        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                        • #27
                          The problem which the Luftwaffe has consistently faced throughout the Russian campaign was basically space and resource constraints. In 1941, the Russian Air Force was much less of a factor, but even with total air superiority a) there were only so many German aircraft to distribute along strategic attack axes, b) there was only so much petrol available for these aircraft, c) forward airfields could be established and resupplied only at a certain rate, not any faster, and d) while much of the Luftwaffe was tactical/operational aviation (not strategic, like the Anglo-American AF in Britain), its ground forces were physically not large enough to launch more attacks, and thus shifting more aircraft to the theater would simply mean more support on the same attack axes, which is where the function of diminishing returns comes into play. [I.e. each additional aircraft means a progressively lower increase in effectiveness but a greater cost in resources/support crews/etc.]

                          That's in 1941. By 1943, the Luftwaffe was at a point where it could only achieve temporary tactical superiority, which worked on a specific attack direction but could not counteract the sustained operational superiority built up by the Red Air Force. A part of the latter stems from the fact that the Russian AF had a far greater number of pilots/aircraft by that point in the war (i.e. more missions, more spatial coverage, more sustainability of coverage, etc.), as well as greater supplies and a well-developed support/technical infrastructure. So, as a curious side-effect of this, one of the reason Soviet and German fighter pilots have different kill totals is because Soviet pilots were made to fly far fewer combat missions per period of time (i.e. take months off to rest/retrain - see Pokryshkin chafing against his unit being ordered to rest during key offensives) while the Germans had to constantly employ their dwindling resources.

                          So - the main point is, the spatial/resource problem both in 1941 and by 1943-1944 was such that I do not think an extra 1,000 aircraft would have made a statistically significant difference. Some, of course, but not nearly as much as one would think. The spatial problems were too great, and, again, you cannot simply transfer 1,000 aircraft - you have to establish airfields, supply and support infrastructure, etc. And then you have to move the whole thing forward as the troops advance. Never mind planning/coordinating the thing.

                          Now shifting strategic bombers - that could have helped to, at least, make the 1942-1943 battles much bloodier for the Russians (since a big function in Red Army's combat performance during the 1941-1943 period was that the factories took time to ramp up production, and as such the army units often did not have even their authorized equipment/support units). But the Germans did not have such machines in anything like meaningful numbers - their aviation was predominantly tactically/operationally focused.

                          In addition, there is the fact that shifting the aircraft out of West Europe presupposes a peaceful detente with Britain. And if THAT were the case, then you have to talk about Lend Lease, etc. Too many variables shift at that point.
                          А трубу от германского крейсера не надо?!..

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