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This could have made Germany defeat the Soviet Union!

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  • This could have made Germany defeat the Soviet Union!

    Evening gents.
    I need your opinions.
    Whenever I used to play as the Germans in the game, Russian Campaign I used to think, what if Goering hadn't lost all those aircraft and aircrews in the Battle of Britain?
    Everything else being the same, do you think those planes and their capabilities could have brought victory to Germany over the Soviet Union?
    I say, yes!
    Slug
    My apologies if this topic has already been discussed.
    "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

  • #2
    I think nothing would change seriously. The main Goering's mistake was not that one.
    Germany had no strategic bombers and couldn't affect on Soviet plants over Urals.
    Soviets also had no real forces of strategic aviation, but allied help was a good compensation for that.

    Soviet air forces had large opportunities to increase their amount. When they got more tactic and strategic skills, Luftwaffe lost that battle. If not that losses over Britain that loss would beceom a bit later, but nothing would change in final results.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      I think the bigger problem (and I'm not sure it would have been enough to have made that big a difference) was the Balkans Op prior to the invasion, setting the invasion back to late June. Had they gone in three months earlier, things may have been much different. How much? Hard to tell.
      Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
      Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


      "Never pet a burning dog."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Janos
        I think the bigger problem (and I'm not sure it would have been enough to have made that big a difference) was the Balkans Op prior to the invasion, setting the invasion back to late June. Had they gone in three months earlier, things may have been much different. How much? Hard to tell.
        surely, but we spoke here about aviation
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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        • #5
          I can't see more German aircraft making that much of a difference. In 1941 they ruled the skies as it was.

          Good Hunting.

          MR

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          • #6
            Originally posted by amvas
            surely, but we spoke here about aviation
            We spoke about one option that Slug thought may have changed the course of the war. My point is that I don't think it was as decisive as he thinks it was. Perhaps I should have elaborated further.
            Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
            Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


            "Never pet a burning dog."

            RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
            http://www.mormon.org
            http://www.sca.org
            http://www.scv.org/
            http://www.scouting.org/

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            • #7
              Fundamentally a few hundred extra planes and a few hundred extra pilots doesn't make a big difference. It actually might be a negative impact as more planes flying means Germany uses up its fuel reserves faster.

              The Germans were logistically incapable of defeating the Soviet Union. They could not move the required supplies far enough or fast enough to have a real shot. More planes and more tanks means nothing if you can't get them fuel and ammunition or feed their crews.

              The more interesting question is how many extra trucks were required to make an appreciable difference? I would think something in the order of 100,000 or more.

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              • #8
                I suppose that it couldn't influence significantly.

                But you have to remember that the German aces of 1941 had became aces in 1940 over Britain mainly!!!

                So no Battle for Britain means no German aces in 1941 how we know them.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I suppose that it couldn't influence significantly.

                  But you have to remember that the German aces of 1941 had became aces in 1940 over Britain mainly!!!

                  So no Battle for Britain means no German aces in 1941 how we know them.
                  That comment has no basis for fact.

                  The British pilots of 1940, were by anyone's standards, better than Soviet pilots. If the Germans shot down British planes at will, then I think you can assume, without any reserve, that Soviet pilots would have fallen from the skies at the same rate they did originally in 1941. With, or without, the Battle of Britian.

                  Good Hunting.

                  MR

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mad Russian
                    That comment has no basis for fact.

                    The British pilots of 1940, were by anyone's standards, better than Soviet pilots. If the Germans shot down British planes at will, then I think you can assume, without any reserve, that Soviet pilots would have fallen from the skies at the same rate they did originally in 1941. With, or without, the Battle of Britian.

                    Good Hunting.

                    MR
                    Yea!
                    "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Janos
                      I think the bigger problem (and I'm not sure it would have been enough to have made that big a difference) was the Balkans Op prior to the invasion, setting the invasion back to late June. Had they gone in three months earlier, things may have been much different. How much? Hard to tell.

                      3 months earlier? The invasion date was originally set for the middle of May, you want Hitler to attack 3 months before June, meaning in March? You do know that when the snows melt, the clogged roads would have made a mess of the German offensive straight away? In either case Germany would not have been ready in March with or without an expedition to the Balkans, nor would they have been ready before the actual time that they invaded, the rasputitsa was extra long in 1941 and they would have been stuck in the mud while fresh Soviet forces would have been brought up again and again.
                      "This isn't Paris, you will not get through here with a Marching Parade!" Defenders of Stalingrad
                      "Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth". Mark Twain
                      "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.” Voltaire

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                      • #12
                        I'm not quite so sure that the operations in the Balkans would have made too much of a diffrence in how the invasion of the Soviet Union turned out. I do remember hearing somewhere that the River Bug(the start line for the German campaign) was flooded until the beginning of June 1941, so I do think that the operation couldn't have started any earlier than it did.

                        Jeff

                        Originally posted by Janos
                        I think the bigger problem (and I'm not sure it would have been enough to have made that big a difference) was the Balkans Op prior to the invasion, setting the invasion back to late June. Had they gone in three months earlier, things may have been much different. How much? Hard to tell.

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                        • #13
                          I'm sure that the Germans must have made good their losses in the BoB by Jun 1941. Its not as if they stopped training aircrew and building aircraft?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Geordie View Post
                            I'm sure that the Germans must have made good their losses in the BoB by Jun 1941. Its not as if they stopped training aircrew and building aircraft?
                            How do they do that without diverting resources from tank production and tank crew training or from submarine production and submarine crew training?

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                            • #15
                              The Germans actually used fewer stukas against Russia rhan they did against France in May 1940, and only used about 58% of the Luftwaffe. However, just more planes would not have done it.
                              If Britian had fallen or signed a peace treaty in 1940, then the Germans could have had many more planes, 2 more panzer divisions because the Afrika Korps would not exist and could have deployed u-boats in the Baltic, up north and the Black sea. Also, The Bismark would be able to attack the Soviet fleet and add it's guns to the seige of Leningrad.

                              Students paras wopuld not have fallen in Crete, so they would be available also.

                              Also, assume that without Britain still fighting, the Balkans remained quiet. So Hitler attacks a week or two earlier--at most-- depending on when everything dried with more forces and no military sideshows.

                              IMHO all that still would not be enough to finish off the Russians. Why not? Two reasons. First, German wargames showed that 24 panzer divisions were needed or panzers would have to be diverted from one AG to another to reach specified goals like Leningrad, Moscow or Rostov. Historically, with 17 Pz. divisions, that's what happened. Guderian goes south, the AGN panzers go toward Moscow once Guderian comes back to the center, and the Russians still hold out. Also, the Germans underestimated soviet military strength and industrial capacity. Had Hitler realized Guderian's assessment of russian indurstry was correct, even he would have realized they couldn't win. He did say so to Guderian at some point. (1942?)

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