Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Slutsk/Sluzk Belorussia 1941

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by amvas
    Quote from Kardon: The 205th MRD, on the other hand, was stationed near Pruzhany, and since it had 61 tanks, that plus the remnants of the TDs was probably the main source for the armor in the attack you mentioned.

    Only partial truth.
    I'm sorry, what's "partial truth" about it? Partial truth implies a partial falsehood. The 205th MRD was "stationed in the town of Bereza-Kartuzskaya and villages around it" which is pretty near Pruzhany (since I don't have a detailed map of the area other than what's in Sandalov's "Perezhitoye"), which was the town mentioned in the original question. A general question gets a general answer, the main point being that it's more likely that the 205th MRD had the majority of tank units there than the already decimated 30th TD, although it's difficult to be sure since the 205th MRD's 127th TR (which was stationed even further to the east) is not mentioned in Drig in relation to these battles at all.
    "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by amvas
      Some correction. Detachment of Col. Bogdanov attached to the 55th RD was called “tank”.
      Agreed. There's a slight confusion in Drig. On page 388 he says "... the tank detachment of Colonel Bogdanov was located in the infantry fighting positions of the 55th Rifle Division..." Then on page 389 he says "... the detachment of Colonel Bogdanov was subordinated to the commander of the 55th Rifle Divison." I guess we can assume that it's the same detachment. But then on page 390, talking about the rescue of the 4th Army HQ, it says "The HQ of the 4th Army suffered losses and was able to withdraw from the danger area only thanks to the heroic actions of the 30th Motorized Rifle Regiment..."

      So actually the last sentence is not talking about Bogdanov's detachment at all, but rather his 30th MRR. (As you know, all if not most of the TD's MRR's had the same numerical designation as the TD itself.) I guess we can assume that it was still under Bogdanov's control.

      On another note, it's unfortunate that Drig has no footnotes, only a list of sources at the end. It'd be more convincing if he had footnoted his sources, but then again, it's already a thick book (830 pages).
      "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

      Comment


      • #18
        I'm sorry, what's "partial truth" about it? Partial truth implies a partial falsehood.
        Yep, and I showed where you were right and where – wrong.
        The 205th MRD was "stationed in the town of Bereza-Kartuzskaya and villages around it" which is pretty near Pruzhany (since I don't have a detailed map of the area other than what's in Sandalov's "Perezhitoye"), which was the town mentioned in the original question.
        Yes, Bereza is near Pruzhany, but you can easily see from the map, the 3,4 Pz.Div. and 3th I.D. operated there, but not mentioned 18th Pz. Division.

        A general question gets a general answer, the main point being that it's more likely that the 205th MRD had the majority of tank units there than the already decimated 30th TD, although it's difficult to be sure since the 205th MRD's 127th TR (which was stationed even further to the east) is not mentioned in Drig in relation to these battles at all.
        You missed my words that “two motorized battalions were formed in the 205th MRD”.
        And the Tank regiment (it must be the 127th TR) WAS SENT to the 28th Rifle Corps. It is mentioned in Drig’s book. (page 382 bottom)
        A day later, this group was ordered to return back, but no data if it managed to fulfill this order and what was it fate.
        Last edited by amvas; 29 Jan 06, 04:38.
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

        Comment


        • #19
          So actually the last sentence is not talking about Bogdanov's detachment at all, but rather his 30th MRR. (As you know, all if not most of the TD's MRR's had the same numerical designation as the TD itself.) I guess we can assume that it was still under Bogdanov's control.
          Ok, agreed

          On another note, it's unfortunate that Drig has no footnotes, only a list of sources at the end. It'd be more convincing if he had footnoted his sources, but then again, it's already a thick book (830 pages).
          I suppose he used combat reports of the 14th Mechcorps. We are investigating the history of some mechcorps. Documents for some of them are in terrible state. If you visit my “Raw materials index page http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/raw.htm , you can see numbers of Mechcorps docs for which we already have. Unfortunately the 14th MC is still not among them, but if any of you are really interested in these docs, this task is resolvable (Details only in private talks)

          Regards,
          Alex
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bannon DC
            The map you reference is very good... clear and readable.

            Would you be able to help me out with a key to the Soviet military abbreviations with regard to the type of units they represent? I'm not sure what I'm looking at in some cases. Some of these letters I can not duplicate on my keyboard... but they most closely appear to be an "a". "22ca, 42ma"
            "22ca, 42ma" means "the 22nd SD, the 42nd TD" which is translated "the 22nd RD, the 42nd TD" in English.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by amvas
              Yes, Bereza is near Pruzhany, but you can easily see from the map, the 3,4 Pz.Div. and 3th I.D. operated there, but not mentioned 18th Pz. Division.
              That's irrelevant, since I'm talking about where the unit was stationed (mesto dislokatsii), not where it fought.


              Originally posted by amvas
              You missed my words that “two motorized battalions were formed in the 205th MRD”.
              And the Tank regiment (it must be the 127th TR) WAS SENT to the 28th Rifle Corps. It is mentioned in Drig’s book. (page 382 bottom)
              A day later, this group was ordered to return back, but no data if it managed to fulfill this order and what was it fate.
              True, but irrelevant. Anyway, we're getting pretty far afield from the first issue, which was Bannon DC's question about a tank battle at "Pruzana".

              It's interesting to note that the 127th TR's peacetime station was Bronno-Gura, which is roughly 90 kilometers from Zhabinka where the 28th RC was fighting. 127th TR was alerted soon after 5am on 6/22. It must have taken them several hours to get themselves together and head off to Zhvedkovichi to join the 28th RC (which is not on the map so I assume near Zhabinka), so it's questionable if they could have sent their old, slow T-26's on a road march and reached Zhabinka in time. The 127th TR was ordered to go to 28th RC in the night of 22/23 June. At 10am on 6/23 4th Army HQ realized that the counterattack was a failure and ordered 14th MC to secure the Pruzhany axis and sometime after that, as you note, the 127th TR was ordered to rejoin 14th MC in the area of Pruzhany. Given that probably less than 12 hours had expired between the order to join 28th RC and the second order to rejoin 14th MC, I'll bet that 127th TR never reached 28th RC and was in relatively good shape to fight at Pruzhany, which was my point all along.
              "If you have too firm a belief in the glories of soldiering, try a war."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Kardon
                That's irrelevant, since I'm talking about where the unit was stationed (mesto dislokatsii), not where it fought.
                Initially discussion was just about the battle for Pruzhany, but not about pre-war deployment.

                True, but irrelevant. Anyway, we're getting pretty far afield from the first issue, which was Bannon DC's question about a tank battle at "Pruzana".
                Just what I had said above

                It's interesting to note that the 127th TR's peacetime station was Bronno-Gura, which is roughly 90 kilometers from Zhabinka where the 28th RC was fighting. 127th TR was alerted soon after 5am on 6/22. It must have taken them several hours to get themselves together and head off to Zhvedkovichi to join the 28th RC (which is not on the map so I assume near Zhabinka), so it's questionable if they could have sent their old, slow T-26's on a road march and reached Zhabinka in time. The 127th TR was ordered to go to 28th RC in the night of 22/23 June. At 10am on 6/23 4th Army HQ realized that the counterattack was a failure and ordered 14th MC to secure the Pruzhany axis and sometime after that, as you note, the 127th TR was ordered to rejoin 14th MC in the area of Pruzhany. Given that probably less than 12 hours had expired between the order to join 28th RC and the second order to rejoin 14th MC, I'll bet that 127th TR never reached 28th RC and was in relatively good shape to fight at Pruzhany, which was my point all along.
                Yep, your point is quite clear. But you miss one possible variant, when that regiment could join another unit.
                Roads of that period of the war were not suitable for long redeployment. The mentioned 6th Mechcorps, for example lost large percent of its tanks just on roads, but not in fights.
                From the text I learnt that "command managed to remove only tank regiment from the fight in the 28th Corps operative zone" (sorry for inexact citate, as I have no book on my workplace). So, probably this unit can lost its strength somewhere on roads trying to join the 14th MC.

                Regards,
                Alex
                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thanks for the information, one and all.

                  Bannon

                  Comment

                  Latest Topics

                  Collapse

                  • casanova
                    Klaudia Tanner
                    by casanova
                    During a speech by the Austrian minister of defence Klaudia Tanner to the soldiers one soldier fell down. The minister helped him to stand up again. The...
                    Yesterday, 23:56
                  • Karri
                    Doom Patrol
                    by Karri
                    Anyone else following?

                    IMO, it's one of the rare good things to come from this whole superhero genre (which is really mostly the same as...
                    Yesterday, 23:55
                  • Nikki
                    Iranian Nuclear Program Setback
                    by Nikki
                    Iran's nuclear program was at an advanced stage, this had to be done. Israel carried out this mission to buy the world some more time....
                    Yesterday, 23:03
                  Working...
                  X