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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
    Quite frankly, I dont see whats wrong with Beevor. He got his info from Moscow (among others).

    Thanks for the information, Andrey. You too, amvas. And yes, I realise that casualties from desertion were smaller then the Western media shows. I think the number almost matches the number of a division.
    Plz, don't make me laugh speaking about "getting info from Russia"
    I clearly knows how "to get info" from here. and what efforts it costs to receive really reliable info and what amount of bad sources appears to be either in our mass-media and printed sources....
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #17
      Well, this is what Beevor says in his book about his Russian resources:

      Originally posted by Antony Beevor
      For advice on Russian sources and other suggestions, I am indebted to Doctor Catherine Andreev, Professor Anatoly Aleksandrovich Chernobaev, Professor John Erickson, Doctor Viktor Gorbarev, Jon Halliday, Colonel Lemar Ivanovich Maximov of the Russian Ministry of Defence`s Historical Branch, and Yury Ovzianko......In Volgograd I owed much to the kind assistance of Doctor Raisa Maratovna Petrunyova, the Vice-Rector of Volgograd University, and her colleagues, Proffesor Nadezhda Vasilevna Dulina, the Director of Historical and Cultural Studies, Galina Borisovna of the History department, and Boris Nikolaevich Ulko, the Director of the University Museum, as well as Nikolay Stepanovich Fyodortov, chairman of the Volgograd District Committee of War Veterans, and Lieutenant-Colonel Gennady Vasilevich Pavlov.
      Translations from the Russian are by Doctor Galya Vinogradova and Lyubov Vinogradova, whose assistance in negotiations over access to archives offered a model of skilled diplomacy, persistence and good homour.
      I left out the names of those who put him in touch with the survivors of Stalingrad or who took care of him in Germany and Russia. Also could it be THE Pavlov?
      "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

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      • #18
        Originally posted by amvas
        I promised to cite some figures. In attachment I gave NKVD reference for the number for shot and convicted soldiers and officers in Oct.-Jan.
        In September 195 soldiers were shot.

        From another reference:
        OO NKVD STF v UOO NKVD SSSR "About activities of zagradotryad of the Stalingrad and don Fronts"

        (not later than Oct. 15'42)

        I got the next info:
        Stalingrad Front had 16 and don Front 25 zagradotryad (barrage detachments)

        In the period Aug. 15-Oct. 15 overall number of armed forces personnel running from frontline hold by barrage detachments: 140,755 .
        From them
        arrested: 3,980
        Shot: 1,189
        Sent in penal companies: 2,776
        Sent in penal battalions: 185
        returned to their units and
        transit centers: 131,094

        For the Don Front was hold: 36,109

        From them
        arrested: 736
        Shot: 433
        Sent in penal companies: 1,056
        Sent in penal battalions: 33
        returned to their units and
        transit centers: 32,933

        For the Stalingrad Front was hold: 15,649

        From them
        arrested: 244
        Shot: 278
        Sent in penal companies: 218
        Sent in penal battalions: 42
        returned to their units and
        transit centers: 14,833

        So, you could see the total number of convicted, shot and sent in penal units was quite low in comparison with mythical figures appeared in western literature and especially in movies

        Regards,
        Alex
        I have seen zagradotriad translated as "blocking detachments" which I think gives a better mental image of the unit's mission.

        Glantz has a small sub-section on blocking detachments in his Colossus Reborn. He points out that Stalin's Order No. 227, which required blocking detachments be employed routinely, only confirmed a practice the army was already employing on a widespread basis.

        The practice was officially abolished in late 1944(29 OCT 44, NKO Order No. 0349), however, Glantz notes "as archival and numerous eyewitness accounts now confirm, some commanders continued to use blocking detachments to enfore Red Army discipline unitl war's end, although, by this time, NKVD and MVD forces performed most of these grisly tasks."
        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
          I left out the names of those who put him in touch with the survivors of Stalingrad or who took care of him in Germany and Russia. Also could it be THE Pavlov?
          OK, I'll explain how I understand what is happened.

          There is a writer A. He visited 10 persons and got from them 100 facts.

          Then he wrote a book where he wrote 1000 facts including the 100 facts but 900 other are false. But he writes that while he ws writing the book he asked 10 important persons. It is truth but a reader understands it so that all 1000 facts are from reliable sources.

          Also the writer A distorts the 100 really good facts, he gives them a negative inflection.

          I doubt that a Russian WWII veteran will like how Beevor described Red Army.

          Pavlov is not a rare name in Russia. It is like Johns or Smith.
          Last edited by Andrey; 20 Dec 05, 11:56.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Andrey
            OK, I'll explain how I understand what is happened.

            There is a writer A. He visited 10 persons and got from them 100 facts.

            Then he wrote a book where he wrote 1000 facts including the 100 facts but 900 other are false. But he writes that while he ws writing the book he asked 10 important persons. It is truth but a reader understands it so that all 1000 facts are from reliable sources.

            Also the writer A distorts the 100 really good facts, he gives them a negative inflection.

            I doubt that a Russian WWII veteran will like how Beevor described Red Army.

            Pavlov is not a rare name in Russia. It is like Johns or Smith.
            I see. While that is possible, do you have any proof of this? Dont get me wrong, im sure you have a good reason for taking his claims with a grain of salt.
            "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
              I see. While that is possible, do you have any proof of this? Dont get me wrong, im sure you have a good reason for taking his claims with a grain of salt.
              He gives distorted image of Red Army. That image contradicts with the image that I have about it.

              You can read "Russia at war" by Alexander Werth and to compare. "Russia at war" contains some mistakes but commonly it is closest to the most correct image of Red Army how I see it in my mind.

              And it is not only about me, it looks like Amvas has the same opinion.


              look this also
              http://www.war-forums.com/forums/sho...ghlight=beevor
              Last edited by Andrey; 20 Dec 05, 20:22.

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              • #22
                Well, Beevors work is currently the most neutral work I have read about the Eastern Front. But if I get my hands on Russia at war, ill take a peek.
                "Beneath its gilded beauty, though, there lies a poorly designed game which rewards the greedy and violent, and punishes the hardworking and honest; and if you think about it, that's a good representation of capitalism" - Nightfreeze about Eve Online

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tom Phoenix
                  Well, Beevors work is currently the most neutral work I have read about the Eastern Front. But if I get my hands on Russia at war, ill take a peek.
                  May be, Beevor's work is better than the most part of other Western books about Eastern Front. But his work is still very bad.

                  And it is very dangerous. The Westerners read in past complete nonsense and now Beevor comes and speaks: "Hey, guys, I had written another book, it is book from Russian sources, it is not that ninsence that you read before." And many people read Beevor, see that his book differs from previous books and think: "Yes, it is really truthful book because it shows the Russians better." It is incorrect.

                  Also I heard a lot of good words about Glantz and Overi's books about Eastern Front (only heard as they are not translated in Russian). Read them also.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Andrey

                    “Penal units: the truth without fabrication” by Andrei Kuznetsov, Lieutenant Colonel of Justice [a military lawer – remark of Andrey]

                    It was still in the start of the war, which began tragically for us, when there were a lot of cases of non-organized retreat and, sometimes, the cases of a panic. Many commanders and political officers organized according their own initiative the special units that had to stop retreating soldiers, to bring them to reason, to close them in united organized group. Those units typified the “zagradotriady” (detachment-obstacles). The Soviet Supreme Command supported and legalized such troops’ practice. On June, 12th of 1941 the commanders of the Fronts got an order:
                    Interesting quote, and this puts yet another light on the "historically accurate" information coming out of Russia these days.

                    June 12th 1941 is indeed early in the war. If that order was issued on June 12th to stop the desertion problem what does that say? Either the report is mistaken, or a lie. Those are your two choices.

                    The problem with comparing the "truth" about what happened in Russia during the war, is, that for so long, the Soviet Union lied about EVERYTHING! The reasons for the misinformation is understandable. Don't get me wrong, the misinformation is not the problem. The problem is how to determine if what you are seeing now is the truth or more of the same.

                    Supposedly, Glantz has lectured in the Russian Military, about WWII, in the Soviet Union. His works are widely read in the west and he is regarded as one of, if not, the best.

                    Good Hunting.

                    MR

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mad Russian
                      June 12th 1941 is indeed early in the war. If that order was issued on June 12th to stop the desertion problem what does that say? Either the report is mistaken, or a lie. Those are your two choices.
                      It was my misprint: JULY, 12th of 1941 is correct version. The war has began in June, 22nd.

                      The meaning of that order is described well enough in my translation.

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                      • #26
                        Here is the corret version:

                        Here it is about "Enemy at the gates movie" the image of Red Army here isd the same like in Beevor's Stalingrad

                        http://battlefield.ru/index.php?opti...id=108&lang=en


                        Here is the thread about penal units.
                        http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30359

                        It contains the following info about detauchments-obstacles (zagradotriad).


                        "It is from the site of "The Red Star" newspaper, the official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense.

                        It was an answer to 10-parts mini-TV series "The penal battalion" that Russian TV showed in the September of 2004. I disliked that movie and do not recommend to anyone to see it. But here is the data about Soviet penal battalions from competent sources.

                        It is translated not completely, some parts are not translated as they were not interesting and auxiliary.

                        December, 16th of 2004

                        "The Penal units: the truth without fabrication" by Andrei Kuznetsov, Lieutenant Colonel of Justice [a military lawer - remark of Andrey]

                        It was still in the start of the war, which began tragically for us, when there were a lot of cases of non-organized retreat and, sometimes, the cases of a panic. Many commanders and political officers organized according their own initiative the special units that had to stop retreating soldiers, to bring them to reason, to close them in united organized group. Those units typified the zagradotriady (detachment-obstacles). The Soviet Supreme Command supported and legalized such troops in practice. On July, 12th of 1941 the commanders of the Fronts got an order:

                        1. To organize a detachment-obstacle in every rifle division, those detachment-obstacles had to contain only reliable soldiers and to have the amount not more than a battalion's one.
                        2. The tasks of a detachment-obstacle had to be direct help to the officers in the providing of the discipline in the division and the preventing of running away of been panic-stricken soldiers. A detachment-obstacle had no to be afraid to use weapon for the accomplishing of its tasks.

                        Here what was the basis of such strong
                        measures: "The experience of the struggle against the Fascist invaders showed that our rifle divisions contains a few panic-mongers and even hostile types who lay down their arms and began to scream: "We are encircled" after the first enemy pressure and who carry the others to do the same. In the result of such actions of those types a division runs away, loses equipment and then began to go out from a forest by small groups. There were such cases in each Front. The trouble is that we had no enough firm and sure-footed officers and commissars"

                        So detachment-obstacles were born before penal units were born and the detauchments-obstacles were born in troops. In practice soldiers with frontline experience were sent in detauchment-obstacles, very often they were sent there after wounds and shell-shocks. Army's detachment-obstacles had the same field uniform like other ordinary army units. They were not related to NKVD.

                        The Russian spectators saw in "Shtrafbat" and in "Goo-ga" how the members of a penal unit collided with a detachment-obstacle whose soldiers were dressed almost in full dress NKVD uniform. It is not true. If they collided with a detachment-obstacle so it contained the same brothers-soldiers who already fought in a frontline before.

                        Yes, NKVD of USSR organized its own detachment-obstacles from the first days of the war in parallel with the Army and Navy. But those detachment-obstacles operated in the rears of the Fronts and they had enough job in the spite of the fact that it is not pleasant to know. Only for the time from the start of the war to October, 10th of 1941 the detachment-obstacles of NKVD, providing the guard of a rear, detained 657,464 soldiers and officers who remained behind of their units or who run away from frontline. 623,486 of them (96%) were organized in units and were again sent in frontline. So if you again will see the opposition between an army unit, retreating right after the attack, and machine gunners in green forage caps of NKVD (moreover, in helmets, that often were not used even in frontline) in the screen of your TV-set, know that it is fabrication.

                        The penal units - battalions and companies - were born in the Red Army only in the July of 1942 after the famous order #227 "No step behind". That order also regulated the system of detachment-obstacles. It was right in that order where detachment-obstacles of NKVD were ordered to guard rears so they were not able to operate right behind penal units which only had to be became to organize.
                        The order #227 was published not once so I'l not repeat its words which influenced on the officers and soldiers with not only repressive actions. But it contained and repressive actions..."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Andrey
                          It was my misprint: JULY, 12th of 1941 is correct version. The war has began in June, 22nd.

                          The meaning of that order is described well enough in my translation.
                          My point was that the war hadn't started by June 12th. Glad to hear that the mistranlation was yours. That happens. Interesting subject and very informative.

                          Thanks for shedding light on a vague part of history in the Great Patriotic War that rarely if ever gets any clearification.

                          Good Hunting.

                          MR

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