Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

1945 Manchuria Operation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by danjon
    No one is saying it was easy or not well planned im pretty sure i said as much earlier, and we cant get into the usual west front east front arguements, wereas its not even that simple to compare the island battles to this campaign as its very different in nature.
    You had said it earlier. Your point was that the Japanese were very weak and ut was only easy walk for the Russians.

    As for the last point, no divisions but still over 5000 afv's against which the japanese had little answer to!
    You forget about the terrain.

    The landscape was bad for the using of tanks. The troops that advanced from Vladivostok region had to move through forest and swamp region (recall Hurtgen forest). The tank units that advanced from Mongolia had to cros the Grand Khingan mountains.

    Comment


    • #77
      Regarding the Manchurian strategic operation, all I can say is it was very well planned, and well executed. It accomplished much over some particularly difficult terrain along a frontage that was over 4,000kms with objectives as deep as 400 to 900kms. And, it was all done in about two weeks.

      True, Soviet assessments of Japanese forces were excessive, but then the Red Army in June of 1941 was equally as incapable compared to the invading Germans, being partially mobilized, poorly equipped and using vehicles that had little to no petrol, oil or lubricants--much less ammunition. To give an idea of the depth of Soviet advances in the Manchurian operation, in order for Army Group Center to have matched it in Barbarossa, they would've had to reach the area of Mozhaisk-Vyazma-Kaluga in two weeks, about 100kms west of Moscow. Now, granted this cannot be a fair comparison given the different natures of the two campaigns, but there were many similarities between the two. The instructive difference is that the Soviets knew what they wanted to do, where they were going, how they were going to get there, and, last but not least, made very sure to win the last battle--thereby securing their ultimate operational objectives.

      Regards,
      Greg

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Andrey
        You had said it earlier. Your point was that the Japanese were very weak and ut was only easy walk for the Russians.



        You forget about the terrain.

        The landscape was bad for the using of tanks. The troops that advanced from Vladivostok region had to move through forest and swamp region (recall Hurtgen forest). The tank units that advanced from Mongolia had to cros the Grand Khingan mountains.
        nope never said it was easy, i said the armies the soviets faced were not the elite armies commonly believed and that given the forces involved it was unlikely the japanese would be able to stop the attack as they were relativly weak. I did say that the success was also due to good soviet planning, some hard fighting and the correlation of forces in soviet favour.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by danjon
          nope never said it was easy, i said the armies the soviets faced were not the elite armies commonly believed
          The Kwantung Army, the regular part of the units of that Army in August of 1945, was elite JAPANESE force. The Japanese had no forces better than Kwantung Army.

          and that given the forces involved it was unlikely the japanese would be able to stop the attack as they were relativly weak.
          The Japanese HAD the possibility to stop the Soviets IF they placed their troops better. The landscape was very favorable for a defender.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Andrey
            The Kwantung Army, the regular part of the units of that Army in August of 1945, was elite JAPANESE force. The Japanese had no forces better than Kwantung Army.
            Do you have any Japanese sources to back up this claim ?

            Most open source material agrees that the bulk of the "elite" forces of the Kwantung Army had already been pulled out to garrison islands such as Iwo Jima, Saipan, etc....
            These of course would be replaced with qualitatively inferior formations.
            Last edited by tigersqn; 19 Oct 05, 07:52.
            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by tigersqn
              Do you have any Japanese sources to back up this claim ?

              Most open source material agrees that the bulk of the "elite" forces of the Kwantung Army had already been pulled out to garrison islands such as Iwo Jima, Saipan, etc....
              What sources? What units?

              Your "open sources" can be only Western propaganda which had the task to reduce the scale of Soviet victory in Manchuria.

              All Russian/Soviet sources call Kwantung Army "elite Japanese formation which had a lot of time to prepare for a war against USSR", the best Japanese forces.

              In any case in the August of 1945 Kwantung Army contained elite Japanese units as the units ion Ivodjima, Saipan and so on were destroyed.

              I'll give you quotes from my book.

              It contains, for example, the talking between Stalin and Vasilevskiy where Vasilevskiy called Kwantung Army "elite Japanese forces". He had no reason to lie to Stalin.

              It contains a few quotes from the speeches of main Japanese military leaders about Kwantung Army and its strength.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Andrey
                What sources? What units?

                Your "open sources" can be only Western propaganda which had the task to reduce the scale of Soviet victory in Manchuria.

                All Russian/Soviet sources call Kwantung Army "elite Japanese formation which had a lot of time to prepare for a war against USSR", the best Japanese forces.
                Again, our source is lying and yours tells the truth. Your proof? You have no way to proove which is true and which is false. You were not there so you do not know. Your sources could be biased to make your side look better.


                Originally posted by Andrey
                It contains, for example, the talking between Stalin and Vasilevskiy where Vasilevskiy called Kwantung Army "elite Japanese forces". He had no reason to lie to Stalin.
                Yeah no reason to lie. How about if something goes wrong with the battle then it's because the enemy was an elite force? And if you barely defeat them or annihilate them it's even better because they were elite. I can't imagine this conversation:

                Vasilevskiy: "We just defeated (or destroyed) a very average Japanese force."
                Stalin: "Well done. Our army must be at least above average then."
                Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Psycho1943
                  Again, our source is lying and yours tells the truth. Your proof? You have no way to proove which is true and which is false. You were not there so you do not know. Your sources could be biased to make your side look better.
                  You again read my words without an attention.

                  I didn't write what is true. I had written "all Russian/Soviet sources speak..."

                  Yeah no reason to lie. How about if something goes wrong with the battle then it's because the enemy was an elite force? And if you barely defeat them or annihilate them it's even better because they were elite. I can't imagine this conversation:

                  Vasilevskiy: "We just defeated (or destroyed) a very average Japanese force."
                  Stalin: "Well done. Our army must be at least above average then."
                  The talking I mentioned was at the spring (April?) of 1945 when Vasilevskiy was appointed the Chief of the Far-Eastern direction, had visited the Far East himself and had known the real situation in the Far East.

                  Stalin asked Vasilevskiy his opinion about the opposing Japanese troops in Manchuria.

                  Vasilevskiy answered something like this (I have no the book right now nearly me): "The Japanese have elite troops in Manchuria, those troops occupy very good fortified positions."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    What sources? What units?

                    Your "open sources" can be only Western propaganda which had the task to reduce the scale of Soviet victory in Manchuria.

                    All Russian/Soviet sources call Kwantung Army "elite Japanese formation which had a lot of time to prepare for a war against USSR", the best Japanese forces.

                    In any case in the August of 1945 Kwantung Army contained elite Japanese units as the units ion Ivodjima, Saipan and so on were destroyed.

                    I'll give you quotes from my book.

                    It contains, for example, the talking between Stalin and Vasilevskiy where Vasilevskiy called Kwantung Army "elite Japanese forces". He had no reason to lie to Stalin.

                    It contains a few quotes from the speeches of main Japanese military leaders about Kwantung Army and its strength.
                    Of course its all western propaganda, its now so plain to me! how could all those historians and us be so stoopid and gullable!!!

                    Of course the sources from soviet times are going to play up the strength of the japanese army, and you think our sources are propaganda! wereas the japanese are unlikely to admit that the once proud kwantung army was not actually that good. No one is argueing the scale of the victory we can see that from the number of prisoners etc

                    In any case in the August of 1945 Kwantung Army contained elite Japanese units as the units ion Ivodjima, Saipan and so on were destroyed.
                    so here what your saying is that since the units sent to iwojima etc were destroyed, those in manchuria must be elite?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Andrey
                      You again read my words without an attention.

                      I didn't write what is true. I had written "all Russian/Soviet sources speak..."

                      Well let's see if I can get this straight. Our sources are always wrong because they are just trying to make the Soviets look bad. Your sources say different from ours and that is the sources you apparently use. You now say they are not true? So neither of our sources are correct?


                      Originally posted by Andrey
                      The talking I mentioned was at the spring (April?) of 1945 when Vasilevskiy was appointed the Chief of the Far-Eastern direction, had visited the Far East himself and had known the real situation in the Far East.

                      Stalin asked Vasilevskiy his opinion about the opposing Japanese troops in Manchuria.

                      Vasilevskiy answered something like this (I have no the book right now nearly me): "The Japanese have elite troops in Manchuria, those troops occupy very good fortified positions."
                      As I already said, if his troops destroy or barely beat the Japanese then it looks great because they are elite and not poor or even average. If they lose the battle well then it was because the enemy was elite. I don't know if they were elite or not. You however seem to know what happened and are trying to convince us to believe Soviet/Russian sources instead of lying Western sources.
                      Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Andrey
                        What sources?
                        Hey, you're the one who says the Kwantung Army was the cream of the Japanese Army in Aug '45. You should know what your sources are.

                        What units?
                        Just off the top of my head:

                        62nd Div (made up of 63 & 64 Bdes)
                        26 Tank Rgt
                        38 Div
                        6 Div
                        118 Rgt
                        etc......

                        Your "open sources" can be only Western propaganda which had the task to reduce the scale of Soviet victory in Manchuria.
                        Of course, it must be propaganda, it's not Soviet.

                        All Russian/Soviet sources call Kwantung Army "elite Japanese formation which had a lot of time to prepare for a war against USSR", the best Japanese forces.
                        It's common practice for commanders to overestimate the quantitative & qualitative assets of a potential opponent in order to obtain from their political and/or military masters an advantageous correlation of forces.

                        In any case in the August of 1945 Kwantung Army contained elite Japanese units as the units ion Ivodjima, Saipan and so on were destroyed.
                        Many of these "elite" formations on the islands came from Manchukuo. So what elite units replaced them ??
                        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          From U.S. Army Forces Far East, Military History Section, monographs based on captured Japanese military records (and this may not satisfy Andrey either):
                          Despite its numerical strength, the Kwantung Army lacked quality. The Imperial Japanese High Command had transferred most veteran Japanese divisions from Manchuria before the summer of 1945. Hence, most remaining divisions were newly formed from reservists or from cannibalized smaller units. In fact, only the 119th, 107th, 108th, 117th, 63d, and 39th Infantry Divisions[that is out of of 24 Japanese Inf divs and 8 auxiliary Inf Divs] had existed before January 1945. Training was limited in all units, and equipment and materiel shortages plagued the Kwantung Army at every level. The Japanese considered none of the Kwantung Army divisions combat ready and some divisions only 15 percent ready.
                          Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 20 Oct 05, 16:27.
                          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            From L.N. Vnotchenko, Pobeda na dal'nem vostoke [Victory in the Far East], Moskva: Voenizdat, 1971:

                            His work confirms the order of battle in the previous message.

                            The Japanese High Command's difficulty in maintainng the strength and readiness posture of its force structure had a significant impact on Japanese strategic and operational planning. As the Kwantung Army weakened, planning shifted form the offense (before 1944) to realistic defense (in Sept 1944) and ultimately to acceptance of the need to delay on the borders and defend deeper in Machuria (in 1945). Japanese acquiesence in a new strategy of delay followed by defense became apparent in May 1945. Vnotchenko as the source notes, Kwangtung Army headquarters drafted new plans incorporating Fabian tactics and distributed those plans to area armies in June 1945. [Vnotchenko, Pobeda, pp. 39-43]

                            Sources other than western appear to portray a Kwantung army that performed with predictable results.
                            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              From personal studies of the 6th Guards Tank Army, Transbaikal Front using only Soviet publications [see Red Army Tank Commanders: The Armored Guards, pp. 443-449], the greatest difficulties of the operation were crossing the Khingan Mountain range and the distances to Chanchun, Mukden and Port Arthur.

                              So, Andrey, I would be deeply interested in any released archival material that you may be privy to or recent publications based on archival material that support you contentions.
                              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
                                From L.N. Vnotchenko, Pobeda na dal'nem vostoke [Victory in the Far East], Moskva: Voenizdat, 1971:

                                His work confirms the order of battle in the previous message.

                                The Japanese High Command's difficulty in maintainng the strength and readiness posture of its force structure had a significant impact on Japanese strategic and operational planning. As the Kwantung Army weakened, planning shifted form the offense (before 1944) to realistic defense (in Sept 1944) and ultimately to acceptance of the need to delay on the borders and defend deeper in Machuria (in 1945). Japanese acquiesence in a new strategy of delay followed by defense became apparent in May 1945. Vnotchenko as the source notes, Kwangtung Army headquarters drafted new plans incorporating Fabian tactics and distributed those plans to area armies in June 1945. [Vnotchenko, Pobeda, pp. 39-43]

                                Sources other than western appear to portray a Kwantung army that performed with predictable results.
                                Apparently this dude was fooled by our propaganda.
                                Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X