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  • #31
    Originally posted by Andrey
    "ill equipped" means "to have no enoufh effective modern weapon and technic". It doesn't related where to sit - in a cave in a mountain or in a trench in a clear field.
    In context that wasn't what I wrote. I actually wrote -

    The Kwantung Army may well have been the best Japanese Army in 1945 but it was desperately badly equipped to fight the kind of battle it was required to do so against the Red Army.
    (emphasis added)

    So it is totally related to where you are fighting. A fully motorised army waging war in a dense jungle would be 'desperately badly equipped' no matter how good their equipment might be in open country.


    Do you want to say that a fortification like Maginot Line was not a good fortification against advancing enemy??? The Japanese had a few lines of defence so to breakthrough one line didn't mean to crush enemy defense.
    Well, if we look at Western Europe in 1944/5 the Allies breached the Siegfried Line pretty quickly in several places in late 1944. It was only the weather and a poor supply system that prevented them exploiting it as well as they could have. Fixed defences in modern warfare are only effective if you have a strong and highly mobile reserve to counter-attack any breakthrough.

    Air strikes destroy surface system of enemy. They destroy buildings, railroads, harbours, roads, trucks, airfields, barracks, fortifications, surface communication centers, stagffs and so on. It is impossible to place all it in caves.
    This is indeed true, but the topography of most of the Pacific islands together with the way the Japanese constructed their fortifications meant that the 'softening up' prior to invasion was mostly ineffective (Dan Van Der Vat - 'The Pacific Campaign' - Ch.10). You should also bear in mind that the 'surface system' of the Japanese on the Pacific islands was incredibly basic if not actually non-existant.

    The Soviets had no targets for kamikaze-planes. I didn't hear that kamikaze-planes attacked US troops on a land.
    I don't think they attacked any Soviet aircraft carriers

    But the Soviets dealed with kamikaze-soldiers which had a lot of explosive on their body.
    As did the US forces and they became very wary of taking prisoners.

    As I remember Saipan began to be used as a base for heavy bombers, striking Japan, before it was completely cleared from the Japanese
    Saipan was an absolute horror for the US forces because it was there that they first encountered the willingness of Japanese non-combatants to commit mass suicide rather than surrender. As for the airstrip being operational before all the Japanese had been accounted for, it's not clear in my books one way or the other whether this actually happened or not.

    As I understand the Western Allies were shocked by the behavior of the Japanese in a combat, they were shocked by their bravery and readiness to die for their country up to the last man. In such conditions the Soviet Offensivein the result of which many hundred thousands troops group of the Japanese was crushed for a pair of weeks was a outstanding achievement.
    Never said that it wasn't, but it is open to debate and, to take it back to where you and I first 'butted heads' on this thread, it's not down to 'propaganda'. Check out the most recent 'Montgomery' thread on this forum where the merits of his campaigns are questioned and where his victories are belittled because he supposedly had overwhelming force in his favour, or his enemy was not prepared to fight hard.
    Signing out.

    Comment


    • #32
      Heres a good description of the kwantung army of 1945-

      The bulk of the Japanese forces were far below authorized strength, and most of its heavy equipment had been transferred to the Pacific Campaign. The result was that the Kwantung Army had become, basically, a light infantry counter-insurgency force with limited mobility and experience
      http://www.answers.com/topic/operation-august-storm

      and another-

      The threat which kept 40 Soviet divisions, including
      two tank divisions, from the European front was the
      Kwangtung Army. In existence since 1919, the Kwangtung Army
      was more than 1 million men strong in early 1941. [10-25]
      Manchuria represented the breadbasket and military warehouse
      for the Japanese armed forces. However, as the Allied
      effort in the Pacific war intensified, the Japanese Imperial
      General Headquarters began to withdraw elite divisions from
      the Kwantury Army to counter the Allied threat elsewhere.
      By early 1943, the Japanese had approximately 600,000 troops
      protecting Manchuria against an estimated 750,000 Soviet
      troops deployed on its borders. [18-11] Approaching the end
      of 1944, this former vanguard of Japanese military prowess
      found its strength reduced half again from its number in
      December 1942. [18-118] The Japanese Army was short in more
      than manpower. They were severely deficient in aircraft,
      engineer support, communications and armor. What few tanks
      the Japanese did possess were armed with 57mm guns and were
      grossly overmatched by the Soviet T-34's.
      The day of 7 March 1945, saw the complete annihilation
      of Japanese forces on Iwo Jima and brought the Allies closer
      to the Japanese homeland. Japanese Imperial General
      Headquarters (IGHQ) issued orders on 15 March 1945, which
      withdrew all remaining elite divisions from Manchuria to the
      homeland and included two divisions on the border. This
      also removed the Kwantung Army's 1st Tank Division, the last
      armor division in Manchuria. [18-125) The result left the
      Kwantung Army a mere shadow of its former self (its most
      seasoned division was formed only as late as the spring of
      1944). [9-63]
      http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1986/RMF.htm

      Thus we can see that whilst we are not saying that the kwantung army was incapable of fighting, it was not the elite army group it had been in the years previously, and with this in mind we can still say that the soviet invasion was a superb operation, although against a much weaker opponent. I suspect how ever given the nature of the armies involved, the soviets still would have smashed the kwantung armies, even if they had been of the era 1941

      Comment


      • #33
        What you guys don't seem to understand is all of this is not fact but just Western anti-Soviet propaganda according to Andrey. This always comes up when arguing with him about West vs East stuff. His historical sources say one thing and he accepts them but ours say something different and it is just anti-Soviet dribble to make us laugh at how pathetic the Russians were. Apparently he thinks most if not all of us in the West have no idea the Soviets destroyed the Germans and made our job much easier on the Western front. You can't say anything that could be taken as a negative in any stretch of the imagination or you are just anti-Russian. Again, any source you can provide, if it disrespects the Russians in any way (real or imagined) it is not to be trusted. You can only follow the truth laid down by Russian sources (which are not available for us to view).
        Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

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        • #34
          By August 1945, the Kwantung Army was pretty shabby, and it may have never been a match in equipment and organization as those armies who fought on the eastern front. Additionally, Japanese forces opposite the Transbaikal front could not adequately cover the area,and they were surprised by the routes taken by the armored forces.

          The Soviet's campaign exhibited the culmination of their operational planning, they did some interesting things in the forces which were all combat experienced on the eastern front against a more experienced, formidable foe. Malinovsky's Transbaikal Front had fought through the Carpathian mountains up through Hungary which prepared them for the Khingas mountains. Meretskov's Far Eastern Front had fought on the Karelian Front similar in swamp, forest and water like their sector in Manchuria. And the 2nd Far Easern Front conducted a major river crossing over the Amur--a military operation that is a fundamental requirement coming out of Russia through Europe.
          Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 23 Sep 05, 08:57.
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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          • #35
            True our facts are never facts, distortions or propaganda....

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Psycho1943
              What you guys don't seem to understand is all of this is not fact but just Western anti-Soviet propaganda according to Andrey.
              Discussing this kind of stuff with Andrey is always quite stimulating in my opinion. His Russo-centric viewpoint makes for a refreshing change from the norm, whether I agree with him or not
              Signing out.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Full Monty
                Discussing this kind of stuff with Andrey is always quite stimulating in my opinion. His Russo-centric viewpoint makes for a refreshing change from the norm, whether I agree with him or not
                Yes I understand to some extent. I am interested for a bit but it gets frustrating hearing the same crap that we are somehow anti-Russian. I am sure that the same might apply from his point of view though.
                Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Psycho1943
                  I am interested for a bit but it gets frustrating hearing the same crap that we are somehow anti-Russian. I am sure that the same might apply from his point of view though.
                  Well, around here there are lots of Americans and quite a few Brits, some of whom are still caught up in that old Cold War mindset so I suppose one can be sympathetic if our Russian (or Eastern European) colleagues sometimes get a bit defensive.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Just want to put my word in for Andrey, while he is patriotic (good thing IMO) he is one of the more balanced and open Russians I have "met" on the web. Some who live in the US are not as open and well informed and aware as he is. Sure you can disagree with him but I disagree with many westerners for that matter.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by danjon
                      http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1986/RMF.htm

                      The threat which kept 40 Soviet divisions, including
                      two tank divisions, from the European front was the
                      Kwangtung Army. In existence since 1919, the Kwangtung Army
                      was more than 1 million men strong in early 1941. [10-25]
                      Manchuria represented the breadbasket and military warehouse
                      for the Japanese armed forces. However, as the Allied
                      effort in the Pacific war intensified, the Japanese Imperial
                      General Headquarters began to withdraw elite divisions from
                      the Kwantury Army to counter the Allied threat elsewhere.
                      By early 1943, the Japanese had approximately 600,000 troops
                      protecting Manchuria against an estimated 750,000 Soviet
                      troops deployed on its borders. [18-11] Approaching the end
                      of 1944, this former vanguard of Japanese military prowess
                      found its strength reduced half again from its number in
                      December 1942. [18-118] The Japanese Army was short in more
                      than manpower. They were severely deficient in aircraft,
                      engineer support, communications and armor. What few tanks
                      the Japanese did possess were armed with 57mm guns and were
                      grossly overmatched by the Soviet T-34's.
                      The day of 7 March 1945, saw the complete annihilation
                      of Japanese forces on Iwo Jima and brought the Allies closer
                      to the Japanese homeland. Japanese Imperial General
                      Headquarters (IGHQ) issued orders on 15 March 1945, which
                      withdrew all remaining elite divisions from Manchuria to the
                      homeland and included two divisions on the border. This
                      also removed the Kwantung Army's 1st Tank Division, the last
                      armor division in Manchuria. [18-125) The result left the
                      Kwantung Army a mere shadow of its former self (its most
                      seasoned division was formed only as late as the spring of
                      1944). [9-63]
                      Ok, guys, here what I had done. I went in a book shop and bought a book about Manchurian Operation. The name of the book is "The Great Victory in the Far East: The Soviet Offensive in the August of 1945" by A. Alexandrov, it is a book from the series of "Military Secrets of XX Century" (it is a book in Russian, I have translated its name in English).

                      I only began to read it so I am not not ready to give you answers right now and I promise that I'll do it when I'll read all the book.

                      But now I can say the info that is in the beginning of the book.

                      The piece of text that you gave is a VERY good example of Western propaganda.

                      The final date in this part of a text is March, 15th of 1945. But it was not the last date in the history of Kwantung Army.

                      In April, 5th of 1945 USSR refused from Neutrality Pact with Japan. The Japanese had understood what it meant and AFTER that date they began increase more and more the Kwantung Army. I'll give digits later.

                      In any case the Kwantung Army of the March of 1945 is not the same as the Kwantung Army of the August of 1945. One digit from the book: There is the data about the Soviet forces involved in the Operation 1,700,000 men and there is the ratio with the Japanese 1.2:1. If to calculate so it means that the Japanese had 1,400,000 men.

                      But YOUR, WESTERN source FORGOT to mention about the events AFTER USSR refused Pact with Japan. It is the same to speak about the D-day in the June of 1944 but to describe the German forces in the landing area how they were in the December of 1943. Think yourself what it means and why he did it.
                      Last edited by Andrey; 25 Sep 05, 20:30.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Full Monty
                        In context that wasn't what I wrote. I actually wrote -

                        (emphasis added)

                        So it is totally related to where you are fighting. A fully motorised army waging war in a dense jungle would be 'desperately badly equipped' no matter how good their equipment might be in open country.
                        OK, I understood your idea.

                        I have bought a book about that Operation and have read a part of it.

                        And I want to say that if you suppose that the Soviet forces operated in suitable for their areas that were like European areas so it is a large mistake.

                        The Soviet troops that advanced from the region of Vladivostok had to advance in the swamp-forest area with extremely limited road system. They began its advance in the situation of strong monsoon rains.

                        The Soviet troops that advanced from Mongolia (Kravchenko's 6th Guards Tank Army advanced there, it had a large experience of the combats in the Carpathian Mts) had such an obstacle as the Large Hingan Mountains which was considered by the Japanese as an impassable obstacle. Before the approaching to the mountains the tanks had to cross large desert area. The Soviet troops in that direction had a lot of problems with a water and with fuel. The rear units had to supply the combat units that moved in rush through the area which was absolutely not suitable for supply operations. Also the regions of initial concentration of the Soviet troops were not well connected to the other territtory of USSR, they were undeveloped desert areas along Mongolia-Manchuria borders and it was a huge problem even to move troops there and to supply them by fuel, ammo, water, food, spare parts and so on. In the end the Soviets had to use Transport Aircraft to supply forward tank units by fuel.

                        I said about the main strikes direction but also the Soviet troops made a few auxiulary strikes and captured all the Japanese fortified regions.

                        So the Soviet troops had a lot of troubles with the territory where they had to advance and those troubles were not less than the Western Allies had in the South-Eastern Asia and in the islands of the Pacific.

                        Well, if we look at Western Europe in 1944/5 the Allies breached the Siegfried Line pretty quickly in several places in late 1944. It was only the weather and a poor supply system that prevented them exploiting it as well as they could have. Fixed defences in modern warfare are only effective if you have a strong and highly mobile reserve to counter-attack any breakthrough.
                        It is possible to find a lot of reasons why somebody didn't do something.

                        This is indeed true, but the topography of most of the Pacific islands together with the way the Japanese constructed their fortifications meant that the 'softening up' prior to invasion was mostly ineffective (Dan Van Der Vat - 'The Pacific Campaign' - Ch.10). You should also bear in mind that the 'surface system' of the Japanese on the Pacific islands was incredibly basic if not actually non-existant.
                        The Japanese were not the monkeys, they had modern army which needed to get supply: ammo, replacements, food, weapon and so on.

                        Saipan was an absolute horror for the US forces because it was there that they first encountered the willingness of Japanese non-combatants to commit mass suicide rather than surrender. As for the airstrip being operational before all the Japanese had been accounted for, it's not clear in my books one way or the other whether this actually happened or not.
                        OK, it was Ivojima (see F. Sherman "The War in the Pacific"). But it doesn't change anything.

                        Never said that it wasn't, but it is open to debate and, to take it back to where you and I first 'butted heads' on this thread, it's not down to 'propaganda'. Check out the most recent 'Montgomery' thread on this forum where the merits of his campaigns are questioned and where his victories are belittled because he supposedly had overwhelming force in his favour, or his enemy was not prepared to fight hard.
                        you have to remember that ANY DATA what you read in Western books about the Soviet effortsin WWII can be a false. I do not speak "is a false", I speak "can be a false". If you read "Kwantung Army was weak" you have to check it firstly. If you read the digits of the Kwantung Army in the March of 1945 you have to ask yourself "where is the digits about the August, why do I see the digits about the Matrch only?". If you read that "the elite units of Kwantung Army were sent in the Pacific togethewr with the most part of its heavy weapon" you have to check it - which units concretly were sent?, were they really the best elite units? what "heavy weapon" was sent and where it was sent?
                        Last edited by Andrey; 25 Sep 05, 21:19.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
                          The Soviet's campaign exhibited the culmination of their operational planning, they did some interesting things in the forces which were all combat experienced on the eastern front against a more experienced, formidable foe.
                          Incorrectly. The most part of the Far Eastern troops that fought against Japan in August of 1945 had no combat experience of the war against Germany, those troops were the troops that stood in the Far East from 1941. It explains why the Soviets used completely archaic BT-tanks in that Operation. The Soviet command had no possibility to replace Far Eastern troops by troops which had combat experience. Only a few formations were transferred in Far East from Europe. the Soviet command only replaced some commanders of Far Eastern units by commanders which had combat experience.

                          Malinovsky's Transbaikal Front had fought through the Carpathian mountains up through Hungary which prepared them for the Khingas mountains.
                          Incorrect. Not "Malinovsky's Transbaikal Front " but "the headquarters of Malinovsky's Transbaikal Front " fought against the Germans in the Karpathia.

                          Only the following formations of the Front were transfered from Europe:
                          - Kravchenko's 6th Guards Tank Army
                          - Ludnikov's 39th Army
                          - 53rd Army

                          Those formations were used as a main blowing units of the Front.

                          Meretskov's Far Eastern Front had fought on the Karelian Front similar in swamp, forest and water like their sector in Manchuria.
                          Incorrect. Not "Meretsov's Far Eastern Front" but "the headquarters of Meretsov's Far Eastern Front" fought against the Finns in Karelia.

                          Only the Krylov's 5th Army that advanced in the main blow direction had the experience of the actions in the Europe, it was transferered in Far East from the region of Kenigsburg.

                          And the 2nd Far Easern Front conducted a major river crossing over the Amur--a military operation that is a fundamental requirement coming out of Russia through Europe.
                          No one large formation of that Front was transfered from Europe.

                          EDIT: My info is not absolutely correct. I have read in my book that only the following formations were transferred in Far East from Europe in April-July:

                          - the 6th Guards Tank Army
                          - the 5th Army
                          - the 39th Army

                          A few other formations could be transfered there earlier...
                          Last edited by Andrey; 26 Sep 05, 20:11.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Andrey

                            The piece of text that you gave is a VERY good example of Western propaganda.

                            The final date in this part of a text is March, 15th of 1945. But it was not the last date in the history of Kwantung Army.
                            If you read the whole article at the link given you'll see that the author does refer to the expansion of the Kwantung Army after the date given.

                            In any case the Kwantung Army of the March of 1945 is not the same as the Kwantung Army of the August of 1945. One digit from the book: There is the data about the Soviet forces involved in the Operation 1,700,000 men and there is the ratio with the Japanese 1.2:1. If to calculate so it means that the Japanese had 1,400,000 men.
                            That figure looks a bit on the high side. The highest figure I've seen quoted is 1.2 million and Overy gives a figure of around 1 million. The article linked to gives a much lower figure but I would suspect that this would be 'front line' troops as against all those actually stationed in Manchuoko.

                            But YOUR, WESTERN source FORGOT to mention about the events AFTER USSR refused Pact with Japan. It is the same to speak about the D-day in the June of 1944 but to describe the German forces in the landing area how they were in the December of 1943. Think yourself what it means and why he did it.
                            You've shot yourself in the foot here. From the article linked to -

                            In order to prevent the Russians from discovering their
                            alarming weakness in Manchuria, the Kwangtung Army mobilized
                            reservists and new recruits to form new divisions and
                            brigades to maintain the appearance of a formidable fighting
                            force. In early July 1945, the Kwangtung Army was expanded
                            from 11 infantry divisions to more than 24 divisions.
                            Signing out.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Full Monty
                              If you read the whole article at the link given you'll see that the author does refer to the expansion of the Kwantung Army after the date given.
                              Ask danjon why he quoted only info about the eevents before the April of 1945.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Andrey


                                The Japanese were not the monkeys, they had modern army which needed to get supply: ammo, replacements, food, weapon and so on.

                                I think you'd be surprised just how little the average Japanese soldier required to remain an effective fighting soldier. It's a recurring theme in Field Marshal Slim's book on the campaign in India and Burma ('Defeat Into Victory') and Van Der Vat's book also.

                                you have to remember that ANY DATA what you read in Western books about the Soviet effortsin WWII can be a false. I do not speak "is a false", I speak "can be a false".
                                But that's true of all histories to a certain extent and particularly WW2 and not just 'Western' histories of 'Eastern' warfare. It's all subjective to a certain degree and if you want to find bias it will, by the very nature of the subject matter, be there.
                                Signing out.

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