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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn
    Why does the above account sound so unreal to me ?

    After the atomic bomb is dropped on Hiroshima, not one mention is made of the complete destruction of a major Japanese city and port ???

    According to this account, the Red Army won the war in the Pacific all by it's lonesome; the atomic bomb played no role in Japan's defeat whatsoever.
    I have translated not everything but that what was related to Manchuria.

    I spent a few hours for it.

    If you want you can try to search yourself what the Japanese leaders spoke in those meetings, I suppose that it is opened information.

    And yes, the book I havecontain a lot of data that speak Atomic bombs were not too significant, the joining of USSR to the war and the collapse of Kwantung Army were significant. The book describes military actions in Manchuria and the talkings in Tokyo between Japanese leaders. It gives a very detailed picture of the events.
    Last edited by Andrey; 21 Oct 05, 13:20.

    Leave a comment:


  • tigersqn
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    The Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered in August, 9th a little time after the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. But no one spoke about Hiroshima.

    Sudzuki began the first:
    “I have decided that to agree with Potsdam Declaration and the stopping of military actions as soon as possible is alone way out.”

    The militaries were against.

    Umedzu said:
    “…Today the information from Moscow was the most significant. According our calculations USSR has no supremacy over our forces so I suppose that we have to refuse Potsdam Declaration and continue to fight for better conditions of peace. I continue to believe in the firmness of Kwantung Army…”

    Anami, the Military Minister:
    “Japan will not survive without the minerals and industry of Manchuria. Now Manchuria gives us 1,500,000 tons of synthetical fuel, it is a half of our national fuel production. The 8 fuel plants in Girin, Fusun and Sypin have to be covered from air attacks. More than 20 largest Manchurian plants produce air and armor technics, artillery and rifle equipment, explosives and poison-gas. Based on that huge military arsenal, Kwantung Army is able to withstand against any enemy….

    August, 11th.

    The Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered.

    The situation was extremely bad, the news from Manchuria were bad.

    Togo, a follower of capitulation, asked Anami, a follower of the fight to the end:
    “Anami, you declare that the Japanese army has real forces for successful long resistance. But answer why do the largest our formation – Kwantung Army – is retreating everywhere from the beginning of the military actions? Earlier we heard not once your categorical declarations that the 17 fortified region along the Manchurian border are an impassable bastion against the Soviets.”

    Anami:
    “Togo, the most significant is not the ratio of troops but the tactics. Who could suppose that the Soviets would begin their advance in the period of monsoon rains, two-three weeks before the time that was estimated by us?”

    Togo:
    “According my data to August, 9th Kwantung Army had more than one million men, 1,200 tanks, about 7,000 guns and mortars, 2,000 planes. It is huge military force from any point of view. Is it possible that USSR had transferred from Europe more troops which are advancing so successfully in Manchuria now?”

    Anami:
    “I am not ready to report right now about the real ratio of the forces in the mainland. Most likely, we made a mistake in the abilities of USSR. They practically had no forces in Mongolia but now whole tank formations are advancing to the Grand Khingan.”

    Togo:
    “If the defense of Iamada stopped the Russians it was easier for us to discuss our diplomatic actions. But Kwantung Army is losing on a battlefield. Our aircraft doesn’t operate. What do you offer to do for the Japanese government?”

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, you speak like you are a neutral spectator. The inability of Kwantung Army to hold their border positions can be fatal to the fate of the Empire”

    Sudzuki:
    “Umedzu, as I remember your inspections on the mainland also calmed the government. What will be with the Empire if the Soviets will crush Iamada’s troops and invade in the mother land?...”

    Why does the above account sound so unreal to me ?

    After the atomic bomb is dropped on Hiroshima, not one mention is made of the complete destruction of a major Japanese city and port ???

    According to this account, the Red Army won the war in the Pacific all by it's lonesome; the atomic bomb played no role in Japan's defeat whatsoever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    On April, 5th of 1945 USSR denounced Neutrality Pact with Japan.


    In April, 15th Stalin met with General Il’ichev, the Chief of GRU [Military intelligence].

    He asked:
    “We know about 17 Japanese fortified regions. What can you say about them?”

    Il’ichev:
    On the west the Japanese have 4 fortified regions, on the north, along the Amur – 5, on the east – 8. All they were made as a base for aggression but now all they are re-built for a defence only. Each fortificed region contain up to 7 centers of resistance, which had a lot of points. They are placed on prevailing highs and have cross-fire connection with one another. Their flanks usually are rested against impassable terrain – swamps and mountains.

    Stalin:
    “Does it mean that it is impossible to outflank them?”

    Il’ichev:
    “It is impossible to outflank them with significant forces.”

    Stalin:
    “How are they made? Is our artillery able to crush them?”

    Il’ichev:
    “They contain powerful firm fire fortifications which consisted of artillery and machine gun pillboxes, armored hoods, armored observation posts, wooden-ground fortifications, tank ditches, trenches and barbed wire lines. The buildings for personnel, the stores for ammo and food, the stationary electric power stations, the systems of water supply and ventilation are deep under the ground. Improved net of underground communications connects all the bunkers in a united closed complex.

    The situation in the Sakhalin and in the Kurils is the same.”



    In April, 20th the Japanese Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered.

    Sudzuki, the Prime Minister, spoke that Japan has to do everything what possible to prevent the war against USSR. He spoke about diplomatic efforts.

    Umedzu, the Chief of General Staff:
    "I have no panic mood. If to speak about military questions we have no to despond and to think that everything is lost. In the north our hopes are related with the firmness of the defence of Kwantung Army.It is impassable due its deep echelonment and the relief in main strategical directions. General Iamada, the commander of Kwantung Army, is sure in the firmness of his troops. For a few months powerful minefields will cover Grand Khingan and the probable crossing points in the Amur and Sungari...

    Now Iamada has 930,000 men. His army has 5,500 guns and mortars, 970 tanks, 1,600 planes. I suppose it is not little."

    Toioda, the Chief of Naval General Staff, added:
    "We have 23 combat ships in border rivers."

    Sudzuki:
    "I suppose that those forces will be increased. Am I right? "

    Umedzu:
    "Yes. But we have no enough weapon for new units so we'll take the weapon from the troops in mother country."

    Anami, the Military Minister, added:
    We have two special units in Manchuria – the Detauchments #100 and the Detauchments #731 of Vakamatsu and Isiia which have biological weapon. Both the units are subordinated to the Kwantung Army. Iamada supposes that even the Detauchments #731 is able to supply his troops by enough amount of biological weapon....

    Sudzuki:
    "Anami, we have to increase our amount of biological weapon. May be, we have to increase the amount of Isiia's unit and we have to do it quickly, for the closest 1.5-2 months..."

    Ionai, the Naval Minister:
    "... In the Kuril Islands and in the Sakhalin we suppose to use the same tactics that we used so successfully against the Americans and the Englishmen..."

    Khara, the chairman of Secret Soviet:
    "... I understand that is a suicide to fight against USSR now. Our efforts have to be directed in the fortifying of our bastions on the north [against USSR] and on active diplomatic efforts in Europe..."




    April, 29th.
    Anami told to Sudzuki about the forming of new divisions in mother country and in Manchuria and Korea.... In the mainland 8 divisions and 7 separate brigades were forming. The were preparing to be an operational reserve of Kwantung Army and had to be in constant increased alertness.



    May, 3rd.
    Allen Dalles got a permission to negotiate with the Japanese.

    In parallel with the contacts with Dalles the Japanese tried to increase their forces.

    Especial attention was drawn to the preparing to a biological war with the hope that the biological weapon would let for Japan to win the combats in the mainland. At May, 5th Isiia ordered to his subordinates: "The war between USSR and Japan is inevitable. We have to increase our production. We have to wait day X of the beginning of the biological war"



    At May, 6th Iamada ordered to his troops:
    "If our troops are forced to retreat in the region of the Grand Khingan in the beginning of the war against USSR so all the rivers, reservoir, and wells in the lost territory have to be infected by a biological weapon, and all the crops and cattle have to be eliminated"



    May, 11th.

    Stalin met with Vasilevskii:
    "...What is your impression about Kwantung Army?"

    Vasilevskii:
    "Kwantung army is the best, most faithful to the Imperor, the most battle-worthy troops. In Japan it is considered a large honor to serve in that Army"

    Stalin:
    "What is about its weapon?"

    Vasilevskii:
    "The Japanese Command has in the mainland two third of their tanks and planes and more than a half of its artillery. The troops mainly dispersed in fortified regions."



    May, 28th

    Harry Hopkins asked Stalin on Moscow about the confirming of Yalta's Soviet engagement to begin the war against Japan. Stalin answered that the Soviet troops would be ready to the August, 8th in accordance to Yalta's agreement.



    In the end of the May the Japanese got new plan of future military actions.

    Iamada's conception was based on the idea that the morale of the Soviet troops will be decreased by difficult conditions of the combats in the most part of Manchuria. He had hopes that the rate of the actions of the Russians would be as slow as the Allied rate in the Pacific and in the South-Eastern Asia. Morally he was ready to use biological weapon.

    The threat from the north forced the Japanese to control the preparing of Kwantung Army to the war against USSR. In the end of the May Anami, the Military Minister, himself arrived in the headquarters of Kwantung Army. He was related to this formation for all his military career. General Iamada got that army, which was in good condition, from General Umedzu 6 years ago.

    Anami prepared to that trip very carefully. He spoke with some generals of his ministry which served in the mainland in that elite formation, also he met with General Umedzu.

    Kwantung Army was placed in Manchuria and was a combination of a few formations. Kwantung Army contained the 1st and 3rd Fronts, the 4th Separate Army, the 2nd Air Army and Sungari River Flotilia.

    The 3rd (Western-Manchurian) Front of General Usiroku had the 30th and 44th Armies and was placed to the west from the line Vanemiao-Chanchun-Mukden. 2 Inf. Divwere placed nearly Mongol border. 6 inf divisions, 3 Inf and 1 tank brigades were in the region of Mukden.
    It was considered a reserve in the case of Soviet advance from the region of Vladivostok.

    The 4th (Northern-Manchurian) Separate Army of General Mikio had 3 inf divisions, 1 inf and 3 mixed brigades was placed on huge territory in the triangle Sakhalian-Hailar-Harbin. The main hopes were on the rivers of Argun and Amur and with the very bad terrain. The headquarters of the army was in Tsitsikar.

    The 1st (Eastern-Manchurian) Front of General Kita was the most powerful and covered Mudantszian and Hunchun directions. It had the 3rd and 5th Armies. The 3rd Army 4 inf divisions, 1 separate mixed brigade and some support units. The 5th Army had 3 inf divisions and some support units. 3 inf divisions were in the reserve of the commander of the Front.

    The 34th Separate Army of General Sanity was in the Northern Korea. It had 2 inf divisions, 1 separate brigade and some support units. The 34th Army was a strategical reserve of the Commander of Kwantung Army. The units of the 34th Army were placed nearly the Korean ports and were ready to be transferred in the mainland.

    The direct reserve of the commander of Kwantung Army was 1 inf division, 1 separate inf and 1 separate tank brigades. Also the troops of Manchou-Go, of pro-Japanese ruler of Innner Mongolia De Van and of the Suiiuan Army Group were subordinated to the commander of the Kwantung Army. Those troops commonly had 8 inf and 7 cav divisions, 14 separate inf and cav brigades.

    Kwantung Army could be reinforced by the reserves from the Northern China where more than 2 Japanese Armies (8 divisions, 115,000 men) were in the region of Pekin.

    Also the troops of the 17th (Korean) Front of General Kodzuki were a possible reserve of Kwantung Army. The 17th Front had 7 inf divisions and 2 separate mixed brigades (97,000 men) organized in the 58th Army with the headquarters in Seoul.

    In the case of military actions the command of Kwantung Army supposed to use the armed detachments, formed from Japanese colonists. Those detachments contained 100,000 men and were dispersed in all the territory of Manchuria.

    During the revision Iamada said with a lot of pride that the command of his one million-men army continued to increase its amount. As the compensation of the technical superiority of Soviet troops the Japanese prepared to use widely special forces - ground "kamikaze"-soldiers whose order was to destroy Soviet commanders and technics.

    The Military Minister was satisfied by Iamada's report about the largest ground forces formation. He was sure that the Soviets would be repulsed in Manchuria and one more long campaign in huge Asian space would begun.




    In May, 28th Japanese Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered. Anami reported about his trip in Kwantun Army. His conclusions about the readiness of Kwantung Army were optimistic and were completely approved by the other members of the Supreme Soviet...
    General Umedzu was ordered to apply the experience of Kwantung Army in the using of preparing of ground “kamikaze” units to the 5th Front of General Higuti. The 5th Front contained the 27th Army in Kuril Islands, the 88th Separate Inf Division in the Sakhalin and 2 separate inf divisions in the Hokkaido.

    Also Anami reminded that Kwantung army has 54 tons bacteriums of plague, anthrax, typhus, cholera as strike weapon of a large war. It would show the increasing might of the Japanese Army.

    Sudzuki asked when the Soviets will attack.

    Anami answered that USSR, having only 40 divisions, mainly rifle ones, along the Soviet-Manchurian border, has no supremacy over Kwantung Army. Moreover, the Soviets would have large casualties during attacks against the fortified regions. So the breakthrough of large Soviet forces deep in Manchuria is impossible. The Soviets need more than 3 months to increase twice the forces in Far East. Anami made his conclusion: "The advance of USSR is possible not earlier than the middle of the September, after the end of monsoon rains in Manchuria. The Soviet ground forces can be supported not more than 2,000 planes."

    The other members of the Soviet agreed with Anami. Sidzuki said in the end:
    "We have to hurry to increase the transfer in Manchuria our troops. We have to form the group of troops which is necessary according to our plan of the war against USSR not later than the beginning of the September."



    In May, 30th Imperor's Stavka ordered Iamada to prepare to defence.

    Also it ordered to Okamura, the commander of the Expeditional forces in China, "to transfer immediately 4 divisions and supporting units in Manchuria; to transfer in Central and Northern China and in Manchuria from Hunan, Guansi and Tsiansi some units of the guards of railroads and roads."



    In June, 5th Umedzu met with Iamada, the commander of Kwantun Army, and Okamura, the commander of the Expeditional forces in China, in Dalian where they defined more exactly the actions according the order of May, 30th and defined the actions to prepare the troops to the fights against USSR and USA in China, Manchuria and Korea. Those actions intended the cooperation between Kwantung Army, 17th Front in Korea and the troops in China.

    On the base of the order of Stavka the Japanese troops in China were regrouping. Only covering forces were stayed against the Chinese Gomindan forces and against the territories of the Chinese Communists. The main forces concentrated in main communications with the task to move in coastal regions of Eastern and South-Eastern China and to defend against US landings. The largest groups of troops were organized in Northern China as a possible reinforcement of Kwantung Army and the 17t Front in Korea in the case of the war against USSR.



    In June, 10th Umedzu returned in Tokyo and spoke with Anami. Anami said:
    "The main efforts of my Ministry and of General Staff are concentrated on the mainland, on Kwantung Army. But we also have to remember about the Kuril Islands and about Sakhalin."

    Imperor's Stavka gradually changed its military priorities. China was not too important more as a target for capturing. The Japanese troops were preparing to the fights in the mother country, in the mainland and in the islands.


    From the middle of the May the Japanese air and agents intelligence informed about large Soviet troops transferring in the Far East. As an opposite action in June, 16th the Japanese began to transfer in Manchuria simultaneously 4 inf divisions from the 43rd Army from China.

    In June, 22nd the Japanese Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered again.

    Sudzuki opened it. He said that the situation is very difficult.
    Okinava was lost. The war approaches to the mother land. But the situation is most dangerous in the north. If USSR joins the war the situation is unpredictable. Japan is not able to fight on two fronts.

    The Supreme Soviet decided to organize the 30th Army in Manchuria and to form it from Japanese colonists. The 30th Army had to be part of the 3rd Front.



    In the beginning of July Allen Dalles informed the Swedish banker Jakobsen that the separate negotiations would begun as soon as possible because in the case of the joining of USSR to the war all separate negotiations would be stopped. Jakobsen passed the words of Dalles to the Japanese. It was the first info for the Japanese that USSR would join the war soon.



    In July, 7th General Umedzu, the Chief of General Staff, spoke with Togo, Foreign Affairs Minister.

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, what did the Americans say about USSR?”

    Togo:
    “They said that USSR will join the war soon.”

    Umedzu:
    “If to speak about the war against the Soviets so I can calm you. The war will begin after a half of a year or even more.”

    Togo:
    “What is the base of your optimism?”

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, the Soviets have to decide the problem of Kwantung Army. Its million soldiers occupy 17 well-fortified fortified regions. And more. The positions of General Iamada are covered with the 400-km Grand Khingan, the rivers of Argun, Amur and Ussuri and with the Chanbaishan Mountains. In the conditions of good supply by ammo Kwantung Army can rsist Red Army for two years.”

    Togo:
    “But the Russians will transfer there their best troops which crushed Germany.”

    Umedzu:
    “It is not so easy, Togo. The Western Russia is connected with Far East only with alone railroad whose carrying capacity is limited.”

    Togo:
    “I agree, Umedzu. But we have to continue to reinforce the troops of Iamada for the preventing of any surprises.”

    Umedzu:
    “All the efforts of the General Staff are related with those urgent problems, Togo.”


    On July, 18th USSR refused Japanese offer to receive the Japanese delegation which wanted to ask USSR to be a mediator in peace negotiations.

    On the August, 1st Togo and Umedzu met again.

    Togo:
    “Umedzu, you don’t want to agree that the Soviets just about to join the war.”

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, you are a diplomat. I am a military. If to speak about the military questions I disagree with your anxiety. They are still not ready to advance. Their main forces which crushed Viermacht still are in the West. The Russians were not able to get supremacy for last two months. A supremacy is the main factor for the advance.”

    Togo:
    “Umedzu, do you really suppose that USSR is able to concentrate enough troops only to the middle or to the end of the September?”

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, it is important not only to concentrate enough forces but also to use them effectively in the following advance. Where to place the main forces, where to make a main blow? The rate of the following advance will depend from the terrain also. In Manchuria the situation is better for Kwantung Army in all the directions. It is possible to say that the positions of Kwantung Army are secured surely with high mountains, primeval forests, and impassable swamps.”


    In the beginning of the August the most part of the 5th Air Army was transferred in Northern China and Korea and was subordinated to the command of Kwantung Army.


    In August, 8th Japanese ambassador in Moscow got a notification to arrive to Molotov at the evening.

    All the day of August, 8th the leaders of Japan waited the news from Moscow. They had the alone question: “What will be the position of USSR to Japan?”. Nobody believed in the soon beginning of the war.

    In the region of Vladivostok and along the Amur river a typhoon with a cloud-burst had begun at the evening of August, 8th. Wide streams of muddy water gushed out from the hills in valleys, washing out the roads and being the reason of the flood of the rivers. Darkness fell on everything.

    Umedzu had got the weather report from the mainland and called by telephone to Togo:
    “Togo, you have to see how it is difficult to estimate all the factors. There is a typhoon in Manchuria. The roads are washed out with a cloud-burst. It is impossible to speak about any advance of Soviet troops. I foresaw it.”

    Togo:
    “I suppose, Umedzu, you mix your wishes with reality. The Soviets can to break your suggestions and to attack Kwantung Army in bad weather with all their might. I do not bekieve that bad weather will stop them.”

    Umedzu:
    “The weather affects on any type of troops. Planes do not fly in a storm; tanks do not attack in a storm. And you, Togo, are a follower of Potsdam Declaration. You hope on the shameful capitulation of Great Empire.”

    Togo:
    “Umedzu, I am waiting a telegram from Moscow. I have bad presentiments. We can fall in an abyss.”

    In the evening of August, 8th the Japanese ambassador in Moscow Sato was informed by Molotov that USSR declares a war to Japan from August, 9th.

    Togo called by telephone to Sudzuki and offered to gather the Japanese Supreme Soviet for ruling the war as USSR declared the war. The question was to agree with Potsdam Declaration.

    Sudzuki himself called to each member of the Soviet and informed that USSR declared the war.



    The Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered in August, 9th a little time after the atomic bombing of Nagasaki. But no one spoke about Hiroshima.

    Sudzuki began the first:
    “I have decided that to agree with Potsdam Declaration and the stopping of military actions as soon as possible is alone way out.”

    The militaries were against.

    Umedzu said:
    “…Today the information from Moscow was the most significant. According our calculations USSR has no supremacy over our forces so I suppose that we have to refuse Potsdam Declaration and continue to fight for better conditions of peace. I continue to believe in the firmness of Kwantung Army…”

    Anami, the Military Minister:
    “Japan will not survive without the minerals and industry of Manchuria. Now Manchuria gives us 1,500,000 tons of synthetical fuel, it is a half of our national fuel production. The 8 fuel plants in Girin, Fusun and Sypin have to be covered from air attacks. More than 20 largest Manchurian plants produce air and armor technics, artillery and rifle equipment, explosives and poison-gas. Based on that huge military arsenal, Kwantung Army is able to withstand against any enemy….

    August, 11th.

    The Supreme Soviet for ruling the war gathered.

    The situation was extremely bad, the news from Manchuria were bad.

    Togo, a follower of capitulation, asked Anami, a follower of the fight to the end:
    “Anami, you declare that the Japanese army has real forces for successful long resistance. But answer why do the largest our formation – Kwantung Army – is retreating everywhere from the beginning of the military actions? Earlier we heard not once your categorical declarations that the 17 fortified region along the Manchurian border are an impassable bastion against the Soviets.”

    Anami:
    “Togo, the most significant is not the ratio of troops but the tactics. Who could suppose that the Soviets would begin their advance in the period of monsoon rains, two-three weeks before the time that was estimated by us?”

    Togo:
    “According my data to August, 9th Kwantung Army had more than one million men, 1,200 tanks, about 7,000 guns and mortars, 2,000 planes. It is huge military force from any point of view. Is it possible that USSR had transferred from Europe more troops which are advancing so successfully in Manchuria now?”

    Anami:
    “I am not ready to report right now about the real ratio of the forces in the mainland. Most likely, we made a mistake in the abilities of USSR. They practically had no forces in Mongolia but now whole tank formations are advancing to the Grand Khingan.”

    Togo:
    “If the defense of Iamada stopped the Russians it was easier for us to discuss our diplomatic actions. But Kwantung Army is losing on a battlefield. Our aircraft doesn’t operate. What do you offer to do for the Japanese government?”

    Umedzu:
    “Togo, you speak like you are a neutral spectator. The inability of Kwantung Army to hold their border positions can be fatal to the fate of the Empire”

    Sudzuki:
    “Umedzu, as I remember your inspections on the mainland also calmed the government. What will be with the Empire if the Soviets will crush Iamada’s troops and invade in the mother land?...”

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  • Psycho
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    It is because we speak about the events in which, according my opinion, the Russian sources are more correct than Western ones.

    On my knowledge and conclusions.

    I give you the chance to hear Russian opinion.

    You have right to live only in the World of Western opinion or to analize both opinions.

    You speak me the things which I know.

    I was wrong then. According to all of your answers above you chose to believe the Russian version in every case. You tell me I should look at both sides and then decide who to believe. In every case you believe your version over ours. Your last sentence shows why I can never agree with you. You do not know the truth. You were not there so there is no way you can know. You think you know the truth and that is different. You might be right but there is no way to prove it.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    In any case I want to say that I NEVER heard before that significant part of Kwantung Army was sent in the Pacific.

    In all Soviet movies/documentary films the history is shown by the following way:

    Kwantung Army was ready to action and waited an order to attack USSR from 1941 till 1945. There were no one word that it was weakened...

    Your info is interesting...
    Nice talk(in your last batch of messages), Breeze, but I would like to hear about what your sources refute, rather than what you want to disregard.

    Leave a comment:

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