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1945 Manchuria Operation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Andrey
    I want to say that the amhibious operations on Kuril Islands were very difficult. The Kuril Islands were very well fortified. A lot of Soviet Marines made feats during of those operations. It was approximately equal to the combats in the Pacific if to speak about the fury of combats.

    Yes, the Russians suppose that the Kuril Islands are a part of Russian land. And if the Japanese don't want to make agreement with Russia befoe we give them those islands so to hell with them!.
    Yes, I have heard many stories of the operations of the Soviet Marines - quite amazing operations, of which the taking of the Kurile Islands were but one account.

    Quite so, the Kuriles do not have an exclusively Japanese history, if memory serves. Their claims to this territory are quite subjective.
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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    • #17
      Unfortunately the for them,the japanese army in the manchurian theater was not the army it used to be, most of the best troops had been withdrawn for home defence and the remaining divions most were not at top range effectiveness. It had around 1,000 tanks (theoreticaly) non armed/armoured with anything similer to a t34 and an extreme lack of anti tank guns, whilst the majority of the airforce was moved south to cover the home area.
      On the plus side the soviet attack was well planned and executed and when areas of resistance were encountered, as they did on a number of occaisions, the soviets could call on massed artillary and armour to pound it into submission, ultimately the soviets bagged huge numbers of prisoners (unlike the western powers who often got a handfull per island!)Id say whilst the opposition was not great, even if the better troops were there i suspect the infantry based jap army would have stood little chance against the armour heavy experienced red army. (played a wargame with a defending reinforced b class jap brigade vs a soviet armoured attack once, was pretty bloody!)

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      • #18
        The Transbaikal Front had the 6th GTA and a large sector which Soviet planning and operations made look easy. Opposite the Far East Fronts in eastern Manchuria, Japanese positions were well-fortified almost ala Maginot line structures, behind rivers. Serious, heavy fighting, no cake walk.
        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
          The Transbaikal Front had the 6th GTA and a large sector which Soviet planning and operations made look easy. Opposite the Far East Fronts in eastern Manchuria, Japanese positions were well-fortified almost ala Maginot line structures, behind rivers. Serious, heavy fighting, no cake walk.
          True the defences were difficult, and hats off to the russians for the speed they destroyed them the japanese problem was they had nothing to stop the attack if it broke or bypassed the defences, the army was mainly infantry lacked a/t weaponry and the few armoured units were very poor not the best army to stop a red army attack!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by bimble
            True the defences were difficult, and hats off to the russians for the speed they destroyed them the japanese problem was they had nothing to stop the attack if it broke or bypassed the defences, the army was mainly infantry lacked a/t weaponry and the few armoured units were very poor not the best army to stop a red army attack!
            The Japanese forces in Manchuria (Quantun Army) were the best Japanese forces.

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            • #21
              To the point, did you hear about "The detauchment 731" of Colonel Isiya?

              In August of 1945 Japan had HUGE amount of biological weapon (anthrax, plague and so on) in Manchuria. The Japanese had infected shells and bombs. The Quantun Army was a covering force for "the detauchment 731". And the Japanese could use that weapon so it could be reason of large casualties of the Allies. It was the last trump of the Japanese.

              The Red Army crushed Quantun Army very quickly and the Japanese evacuated the personnel of the detauchment 731 in Japan and tried to destroy all the proofs of its existence including all the stores of the weapon.

              The story of "the detauchment 731" was not paraded in the West because it was not profitable for anti-Soviet propaganda. It was the Red Army whose rush advance didn't let for the Japanese to use their biological weapon.

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              • #22
                Wow that I did not know Andrey. Horrible story of the Unit 731.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  The Japanese forces in Manchuria (Quantun Army) were the best Japanese forces.
                  They weren't the great army it was earlier in the war by '45 much of its best unbits and support had been pulled for home defence

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    To the point, did you hear about "The detauchment 731" of Colonel Isiya?

                    In August of 1945 Japan had HUGE amount of biological weapon (anthrax, plague and so on) in Manchuria. The Japanese had infected shells and bombs. The Quantun Army was a covering force for "the detauchment 731". And the Japanese could use that weapon so it could be reason of large casualties of the Allies. It was the last trump of the Japanese.

                    The Red Army crushed Quantun Army very quickly and the Japanese evacuated the personnel of the detauchment 731 in Japan and tried to destroy all the proofs of its existence including all the stores of the weapon.

                    The story of "the detauchment 731" was not paraded in the West because it was not profitable for anti-Soviet propaganda. It was the Red Army whose rush advance didn't let for the Japanese to use their biological weapon.
                    For more info on Detachment 731 see here : http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/fo...ad.php?t=15322
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                    • #25
                      They weren't the great army it was earlier in the war by '45 much of its best unbits and support had been pulled for home defence
                      Or the Phillipines.

                      And saying they're Japan's best troops is some misleading; their incredibly poor equipment, more so in such a titanic war of maneuvre cancelled out any of the advantages in discipline and endurance the IJA may have had.
                      Colonel Summers' widely quoted critique of US strategy in the Vietnam War is having a modest vogue...it is poor history, poor strategy, and poor Clausewitz to boot - Robet Komer, Survival, 27:2, p. 94.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by thejester
                        Or the Phillipines.

                        And saying they're Japan's best troops is some misleading; their incredibly poor equipment, more so in such a titanic war of maneuvre cancelled out any of the advantages in discipline and endurance the IJA may have had.
                        According Russian official opinion the Quantun Army was the best Japanese formation in 1945.

                        The Japanese soldiers in Manchuria were not worse than the Japanese soldiers in Saipan, Ivojima, Okinawa. You have to recall how difficult it was for US soldiers and Marines to fight against them in those islands. And it was in the conditions when US had complete superiority in air, technic, artillery, supply.

                        If the Soviet troops in Manchuria had large combat experience and operated excellently it doesn't mean that their opponents were weak.

                        It is an example of Western propaganda - when it speaks about Manchuria so it recalls that IJA technically was very weak (it is bad to speak good about the Jananese forces that fought against Soviet troops) but when it speaks about actions in the Pacific it forgets to mention about it and speaks about the bravery abd endurance of the Japanese soldiers (it is bad to speak bad about the Jananese forces that fought against US troops)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Andrey

                          It is an example of Western propaganda - when it speaks about Manchuria so it recalls that IJA technically was very weak (it is bad to speak good about the Jananese forces that fought against Soviet troops) but when it speaks about actions in the Pacific it forgets to mention about it and speaks about the bravery abd endurance of the Japanese soldiers (it is bad to speak bad about the Jananese forces that fought against US troops)
                          I don't think that's a fair appreciation. The Kwantung Army may well have been the best Japanese Army in 1945 but it was desperately badly equipped to fight the kind of battle it was required to do so against the Red Army. The forces that the Americans, British, Australian, Indian etc. faced were at least as poorly equipped but because of the terrain they were fighting over this was less of a factor.
                          Signing out.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Full Monty
                            I don't think that's a fair appreciation. The Kwantung Army may well have been the best Japanese Army in 1945 but it was desperately badly equipped to fight the kind of battle it was required to do so against the Red Army.
                            I can say about Okinawa, 1945 that the Japanese forces in Okinawa were "desperately badly equipped to fight the kind of battle it was required to do so against" US Armed Forces in that region. And I don't remember it was a reason for Western authors to spaek that the Japanese in Okinawa were weak enemies.

                            The forces that the Americans, British, Australian, Indian etc. faced were at least as poorly equipped but because of the terrain they were fighting over this was less of a factor.
                            May be. But the Japanese in Manchuria had powerful fortifications that were like Maginot Line, they were covered by almost impassable regions (I remember a Soviet movie "Through the Gobi and Khingan" about Manchurian Operation of 1945, that name reminds that the Soviets had to cross the almost impassable Gobi Desert and Hingan Mountains during that operation), they had been prepared for a few years for the actions there against Red Army. The Japanese in Manchuria had no problems with supply like the Japanese in islands of the Pacific. The Japanese in Manchuria were not weakened by constant bombing raids of Allied planes like it was in the Pacific before the most part of Allied amphibious operations there.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              I can say about Okinawa, 1945 that the Japanese forces in Okinawa were "desperately badly equipped to fight the kind of battle it was required to do so against" US Armed Forces in that region. And I don't remember it was a reason for Western authors to spaek that the Japanese in Okinawa were weak enemies.
                              Were they 'desperately ill equipped'? Okinawa is a volcanic island honeycombed with caves - ideal for the kind of 'guerrila warfare' that the Japanese seemed to relish in the Pacific campaign.


                              Japanese in Manchuria had powerful fortifications that were like Maginot Line, they were covered by almost impassable regions (I remember a Soviet movie "Through the Gobi and Khingan" about Manchurian Operation of 1945, that name reminds that the Soviets had to cross the almost impassable Gobi Desert and Hingan Mountains during that operation), they had been prepared for a few years for the actions there against Red Army.
                              I think we're both aware how effective fixed fortifications are in modern warfare - great until a part gets cracked, then the whole chain goes down. Not to underestimate the achievement of the Red Army in breaking through mind.

                              The Japanese in Manchuria were not weakened by constant bombing raids of Allied planes like it was in the Pacific before the most part of Allied amphibious operations there.
                              What's striking about the bombing of the Pacific islands was how ineffective it actually was. Okinawa, in particular, was a case in point whereby the Japanese were able to shelter in the caves. Additionally, as far as I'm aware the Soviets didn't have to deal with the waves of kamikazes that the Americans had thrown at them.

                              The Japanese in Manchuria had no problems with supply like the Japanese in islands of the Pacific.
                              Quite possibly, but then there was no opportunity to simply bypass centres of resistance in the manner that the Red Army was able to in August 1945. Each island, once landed on, had to be completely cleared since very few, if any, Japanese soldiers were going to surrender.

                              Again, trying to compare the Red Army's charge through Manchuria and the 'island-hopping' campaign through the Pacific is very difficult because, apart from a common enemy, they have little in common with each other.
                              Signing out.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Full Monty
                                Were they 'desperately ill equipped'? Okinawa is a volcanic island honeycombed with caves - ideal for the kind of 'guerrila warfare' that the Japanese seemed to relish in the Pacific campaign.
                                "ill equipped" means "to have no enoufh effective modern weapon and technic". It doesn't related where to sit - in a cave in a mountain or in a trench in a clear field.

                                I think we're both aware how effective fixed fortifications are in modern warfare - great until a part gets cracked, then the whole chain goes down. Not to underestimate the achievement of the Red Army in breaking through mind.
                                Do you want to say that a fortification like Maginot Line was not a good fortification against advancing enemy??? The Japanese had a few lines of defence so to breakthrough one line didn't mean to crush enemy defense.

                                What's striking about the bombing of the Pacific islands was how ineffective it actually was. Okinawa, in particular, was a case in point whereby the Japanese were able to shelter in the caves.
                                Air strikes destroy surface system of enemy. They destroy buildings, railroads, harbours, roads, trucks, airfields, barracks, fortifications, surface communication centers, stagffs and so on. It is impossible to place all it in caves.

                                As I remember during the Battle for Marian Islands US planes completely destroyed all the Japanese surface objects there including all the airfields. And it was only after it when US soldiers and Marines began to land.

                                Additionally, as far as I'm aware the Soviets didn't have to deal with the waves of kamikazes that the Americans had thrown at them.
                                The Soviets had no targets for kamikaze-planes. I didn't hear that kamikaze-planes attacked US troops on a land.

                                But the Soviets dealed with kamikaze-soldiers which had a lot of explosive on their body.

                                Quite possibly, but then there was no opportunity to simply bypass centres of resistance in the manner that the Red Army was able to in August 1945. Each island, once landed on, had to be completely cleared since very few, if any, Japanese soldiers were going to surrender.
                                As I remember Saipan began to be used as a base for heavy bombers, striking Japan, before it was completely cleared from the Japanese.

                                Again, trying to compare the Red Army's charge through Manchuria and the 'island-hopping' campaign through the Pacific is very difficult because, apart from a common enemy, they have little in common with each other.
                                Yes. But it is incorrect to speak that the struggle in islands in the Pacific was more difficult than the struggle in Manchuria. Both theaters of operations had their own advantages and imperfections for troops fighting against the Japanese there.

                                As I understand the Western Allies were shocked by the behavior of the Japanese in a combat, they were shocked by their bravery and readiness to die for their country up to the last man. In such conditions the Soviet Offensivein the result of which many hundred thousands troops group of the Japanese was crushed for a pair of weeks was a outstanding achievement.

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