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1945 Manchuria Operation

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  • Nice to know Glantz concurs.

    Andrey

    Thanks for the lengthy quote. I presume the bold sections are those that you feel are the most significant to our discussion. I'll comment on each in turn.

    Anami, the Military Minister, added:
    We have two special units in Manchuria – the Detauchments #100 and the Detauchments #731 of Vakamatsu and Isiia which have biological weapon. Both the units are subordinated to the Kwantung Army. Iamada supposes that even the Detauchments #731 is able to supply his troops by enough amount of biological weapon....

    Sudzuki:
    "Anami, we have to increase our amount of biological weapon. May be, we have to increase the amount of Isiia's unit and we have to do it quickly, for the closest 1.5-2 months..."
    This we already know and agree on. However, there's one point I want to make regarding the Kwantung Army. Some people (not you Andrey) may not realise that the Kwantung 'Army' is more like a Soviet Military District or Western style 'Army Group'. It's responsibilities were considerable, extending far beyond a 'normal' army's operational concerns.

    Especial attention was drawn to the preparing to a biological war with the hope that the biological weapon would let for Japan to win the combats in the mainland. At May, 5th Isiia ordered to his subordinates: "The war between USSR and Japan is inevitable. We have to increase our production. We have to wait day X of the beginning of the biological war"

    At May, 6th Iamada ordered to his troops:
    "If our troops are forced to retreat in the region of the Grand Khingan in the beginning of the war against USSR so all the rivers, reservoir, and wells in the lost territory have to be infected by a biological weapon, and all the crops and cattle have to be eliminated"
    In my opinion this shows that the Japanese were thinking strategically when considering the use of biological agents. This is not about battle tactics, rather it is planning for the long term denial of resources to the enemy - 'Scorched Earth' if you wish.

    Also Anami reminded that Kwantung army has 54 tons bacteriums of plague, anthrax, typhus, cholera as strike weapon of a large war. It would show the increasing might of the Japanese Army.
    This may be a translation issue, but to me when Anami says 'large war' he is talking about the strategy of the Japanese armed forces as a whole, not specific to any military operation.

    Andrey, unless some other source comes to light I'd like to end our little debate here. With the information currently to hand I'm certain that the Japanese biological weapons played no part in the Manchurian Campaign of 1945 both in its planning and in its execution both from the Soviet and Japanese perspectives. If you do not agree then that's fair enough but I see no point in continuing without fresh materiel to re-invigorate our discussion because I think we've exhausted what currently seems to be out there.
    Signing out.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Andrey
      Yes, Soviet sources have a lot of mistakes. Both Soviet and Western sources are biased.
      Well I actually said Russian sources and you say Soviet sources. Do Russian sources have mistakes in them or any bias?


      Originally posted by Andrey
      No. And stop it, if you have to say on the theme of Manchurian Campaign - say it. I do not want to spend my time to prove you that I know about Soviet propaganda. I spoke you on this theme a few times and it looks like I did it in vain - you again and again speak the same things.
      I am not talking about this campaign specifically. I am talking about your bias versus Western sources in all cases on all subjects we have discussed. I am not talking about Soviet propaganda. I am talking about the Russian sources you say are truthful over our Western sources that lie.

      Of course I am speaking the same things. I keep telling you that you should be open to the possibility that a Western source might be correct over a Russian source in some cases.

      That annoys you that someone keeps saying the same thing over and over? Well then how do you think that sounds to us when all we hear is:

      "Western sources lie to make Russians look badly. Russian sources are correct. Give me proof that Western source is correct. Sorry your proof is disputed by Russian source so Western source is lying propaganda."
      Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Psycho1943
        Well I actually said Russian sources and you say Soviet sources. Do Russian sources have mistakes in them or any bias?
        Yes, Russian sources can be mistaken.

        I am not talking about this campaign specifically. I am talking about your bias versus Western sources in all cases on all subjects we have discussed. I am not talking about Soviet propaganda. I am talking about the Russian sources you say are truthful over our Western sources that lie.

        Of course I am speaking the same things. I keep telling you that you should be open to the possibility that a Western source might be correct over a Russian source in some cases.

        That annoys you that someone keeps saying the same thing over and over? Well then how do you think that sounds to us when all we hear is:

        "Western sources lie to make Russians look badly. Russian sources are correct. Give me proof that Western source is correct. Sorry your proof is disputed by Russian source so Western source is lying propaganda."
        I speak: “In this case Western sources contradict with modern Russian sources. I suppose that Russian sources are more correct because… I can explain the existence of this Western wrong opinion as remainders of Western propaganda of Cold War time.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Andrey

          I speak: “In this case Western sources contradict with modern Russian sources. I suppose that Russian sources are more correct because… I can explain the existence of this Western wrong opinion as remainders of Western propaganda of Cold War time.”
          Actually, the western hope is that modern Russian sources are accessing material which has been unavailable previously. And, if that is the case then they will be ahead of western sources which have been primarily built on skewed and narrow sources with an over emphasis on German material.

          That is why it is so exciting what you and Alex bring to the website. I think we are all in a pursuit of a better understanding of the Red Army in WWII. And, I personally want to thank you guys for your efforts.
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

          Comment


          • In conclusion I want to say that I didn't change my position.

            You can read the memoirs of a few Soviet militaries who fought in Manchuria in 1945, I have translated it and I'll translate more soon. I organized a special thread for it.

            You can read yourself how it was.

            Read how Soviet militaries write about it and make your own conclusions about the campaign and about the Japanese opposing forces.

            I'll be glad if you write your conclusions and describe the impression that you get from it.
            Last edited by Andrey; 28 Dec 05, 19:37.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Andrey
              You can read the memoirs of a few Soviet militaries who fought in Manchuria in 1945, I have translated it and I'll translate more soon. I organized a special thread for it.
              I am glad you and Amvas have been posting all this stuff. I never had an interest in this part of WW2 until all the hub-bub started here and I had to see what all the fuss was about.

              I may be asking you 2 some questions in the future to make sure I get some of my facts correct on a little project I'm working on.
              [Official Game Thread] "To the Berezina River" Napoleonic Game

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Double Deuce
                I am glad you and Amvas have been posting all this stuff. I never had an interest in this part of WW2 until all the hub-bub started here and I had to see what all the fuss was about.

                I may be asking you 2 some questions in the future to make sure I get some of my facts correct on a little project I'm working on.
                If I could post all materials I have, it'll take a century

                Questions are welcomed until they need too much time for getting info for answer...

                Alex
                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                Comment


                • Actually I have found enough information (in all probability) for what I need. I have been searching the threads here and been bookmarking a few things. Maybe I'll have to pinch a few pennies and save up for some of the books I found.

                  Does anyone here have a copy of "Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia, 1939" by Alvin D. Coox and if so, is it worth the cost?
                  [Official Game Thread] "To the Berezina River" Napoleonic Game

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                  • Here is colored map from the Soviet Official History of WWII in 12 volumes.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • Thank you everyone for this extremely interesting thread!!!
                      Andrey, special thanks to you! Well done, very good job in proving your point!
                      Kind regards
                      Igor

                      * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                      * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                      * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

                      Comment


                      • hostility

                        The whole cold war thing seems a bit silly. People are free to travel to countries they do not understand to see what things are like for themselves. People in Russia are just ordinary humans much like one sees elsewhere.

                        Comment


                        • Japanese equipment

                          The Japanese had less aircraft than the Soviets and it appears that the forces in Manchuria largely lacked effective anti-tank equpment. The Japanese had less tanks than the Soviets and those they did have were far smaller and not as well armored.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cojimar 1945 View Post
                            The Japanese had less aircraft than the Soviets and it appears that the forces in Manchuria largely lacked effective anti-tank equpment. The Japanese had less tanks than the Soviets and those they did have were far smaller and not as well armored.
                            We discussed it earlier.

                            The Japanese supposed their forces were enough to stop the Soviets.

                            Their main hopes were related to very bad terrain and the net of 17 Fortified Regions along the borders. There were deserts, swamps and huge mountains with very liomited road net. The Soviet Far East connected to the European part of the USSR with only one Trans-Siberian raiload and it was very difficult task to transfer there large amount of troops with combat experience and to concentrate them along the border in secret.

                            The Japanese couldn't imagine that the whole Soviet tank army would cross Gobi desert and the Grand Khingan mountains for a few days in the spite of all the troubles with water and fuel supply and with lack of roads. Even the fact that the Soviets concentrated a whole tank army in Mongolia was a large surprise for the Japanese.

                            AT-means... You are right, But it is necessary to remember that the Japanese had special groups of soldiers-kamikaze which were to explode Soviet tanks and trucks. They even had "alive" minefields. And the most of guns in fortified regions could be used against tanks in the spite of the fact they were not AT-guns.

                            Aircraft... You are right again. The Japanese aircraft was weaker than the Soviet. But it was not so bad how the Western sources show it. The Japanese didn't use them effectively as the Japanese commanders were taken by surprise.

                            The Japanese plan was to stop the Soviets and then to use Biological weapon (they had a lot of ready-to-usage bilogical weapon including placed in bombs and shells).

                            Everyone can also to read memoirs of some Soviet participants of that campaign
                            http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/b..._memo_jp45.htm
                            Last edited by Andrey; 03 May 07, 11:47.

                            Comment


                            • Manchurian offensive

                              Japan had not been doing very well for a long time by August 1945. The Soviet effort should be respected but I don't think any case can be made that it equates to victory over Japan because the Japanese were already losing to other opponnents before the Soviets did anything.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cojimar 1945 View Post
                                Japan had not been doing very well for a long time by August 1945. The Soviet effort should be respected but I don't think any case can be made that it equates to victory over Japan because the Japanese were already losing to other opponnents before the Soviets did anything.
                                Yes. But the information in Western sources about the Soviet huge success in Manchuria is not correct. It decreases the scale and significance of it. The Quantung Army is shown much weaker than it was. Too little is said about extremely bad conditions for tanks and trucks. No one word is said about the Japanese plans of large scale using of biological weapon in the spite of the fact that it was already in 1949 (!!!) when in the Khabarovsk Trial over Japanese military criminals the truth about biological weapon became known.

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