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  • Originally posted by Andrey
    How is about the mistakes that I've found in Glantz's work for a half of hour looking carefully his data about Japanese forces??? -

    To the point, in 1995 there was also RUSSIAN military literature. It is not the same Soviet military literature. The censorship began to stop from 1987.

    May be, Glantz decribed well the combats and wrote a lot of good facts from some concrete Soviet memoirs but he distorted the image of Japanese Army how it was shown by the Soviets and Russians. The Soviets and the Russians decribes Kwantuing Arny as a might force inside of powerful fortifications.
    You have mentioned before that generals will distort things to have excuses for why they were defeated. The same can apply the other way. How impressive is it for the Soviet leader to tell Stalin, "I had no trouble at all defeating these poorly equipped troops?" Doesn't it make him look better if he says he destroyed an extremely tough opponent? Maybe they were tough but I still doubt they were ready for the Soviets after fighting the Chinese for years. No comparison.
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    • Originally posted by Andrey
      The author wrote EXACTLY about possible using of Japanese biological weapon and not about natural epidemic threat.



      The author fought in the Trans-Baikal Front. Unit 731 was in the centre of Manchuria in the region of Harbin. I do not berlieve that it was possible to define exactly which unit could reach it first.

      And if the Soviets wanted to capture unit 731 they could use Airborne Troops for such task.

      Ummm, I wasn't talking about natural epidemic threat but the threat of weapons. I made that PERFECTLY clear so I don't see why you questioned that. In any case you've already made reference to a US military uniform of 1944 being chemo/bio weapon retardant.

      I wrote that quote because before I have read it I supposed that the Soviet Command didn't know about the Japanese readiness to a large scale germ war.

      If the quote is correct so it means that the Soviets knew about biological threat and made their plans to prevent enemy to use it successfully.
      All you've shown is that they took precautionary measures in the same way as the Western Allies did.

      I wrote that message and them I deleted it as I do not again discuss who is more biased and who is ready to change his opinion.
      Fair enough
      Signing out.

      Comment


      • Wow this thread is still going on?? I have read through and must admit I have learned a lot from the discussion and what ALL of you Andrey, Monty, Psycho and R.N. Armstrong have brought to it. Actually it is as much on historiography and the use of sources as the subject itself. I applaud all of you, let's face it we all have ahd our bias in the past, and at least this civilised debate is teaching everyone. I really understand more about the whole operation than before.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by joea
          I really understand more about the whole operation than before.
          You aren't the only one I can assure you
          Signing out.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Full Monty
            Ummm, I wasn't talking about natural epidemic threat but the threat of weapons. I made that PERFECTLY clear so I don't see why you questioned that.
            Ok, here what I've done. I type in Russian "Японское бактериологическое оружие" ("Japanese biological weapon") in Russian search engine www.yandex.ru

            And in the first page I've found the following:

            http://www.petrograd.biz/stalin/15-2.html

            I.V.Stalin. Works. Volume 15. The meeting with Lavrov.

            June, 12th of 1941 (!!!!)

            "(Lavrov was Colonel General. He was a chief of Stalin's personal intelligence and counterespionage service.)

            ...

            Lavrov: The Japanese have numerous Kwantung Army along out Far-Eastern borders. Kwantung Army is the best Japanese strike force which is ready to action and is only waiting an order to begin a war against us....

            ...In the case of a war the Japanese are ready to use against us their biological weapon: to spread epidemic of plague, cholera and other infectious and very dangerous diseases in our country.

            Two secret Japanese units 731 and 100 operate in Manchuria, in the region of Kharbin; really they are experimental laboratories of the production and testing of biological weapon.

            They have special testing areas, airfields and planes fwith which the fleas, infected by plague, are spreaded over the territory occupied by an enemy.

            During their experiments they study the action of germs on people, mainly on Chinese partisans which were captured by Japanese occupants and which are placed in the prison of unit 731.

            The Japanese already have concentrated in Central China 70 kgs of germs of typhoid fever and 50 kgs of germs of cholera.

            Members of unit 731 which is under command of Japanese General Isii Siro used in practice the Japanese biological weapon in the region of Nimbo. An epidemic of plague have began there after infected fleas were spreaded with a plane in that region, the epidemic was the reason of the death of a few dozens of people.

            Supreme Japanese Command was shown a movie about the using of Japanese biological weapon in the region of Nimbo.

            ..."

            It was about June of 1941 !!!

            If it is truth so Soviet Command was very well informed about Japanese Biological Threat and made their plans on the basis of such knowledge.

            In any case you've already made reference to a US military uniform of 1944 being chemo/bio weapon retardant.
            I wrote about chemical retardant only in that case.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Psycho1943
              I didn't quote the entire post because this makes the main point for me.

              You keep saying we shouldn't call the Kwantung Army weak but you even make the point here about their capabilities. They had poor equipment especially those pathetic tanks facing you. What fighting these guys had been doing was against Chinese forces. Now I wouldn't say the Chinese weren't courageous or anything but they don't compare to the Soviet troops overall. The Soviets were kicking ass by 1945 and had some of the best equipment of the war. Compared to the Soviet troops I would definitely call the Kwantung Army weak. You guys beat the sh!t out of them and you should have. There might have been a few places that were tough to finish off but overall it was pretty easy.
              Tanks is not alone significant factor in a war. The Finns defended very well in 1940 and wothout tanks.

              The meaning of my message was that I do not believe (and it is speaken in Russian movies, books, documentaries about Manchurian Campaign of 1945) that Kwantung Army of 1945 was much worse than Kwantung Army of 1941 (at least in the questions of defensive abilities).
              Last edited by Andrey; 05 Dec 05, 17:12.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Psycho1943
                You have mentioned before that generals will distort things to have excuses for why they were defeated. The same can apply the other way. How impressive is it for the Soviet leader to tell Stalin, "I had no trouble at all defeating these poorly equipped troops?" Doesn't it make him look better if he says he destroyed an extremely tough opponent?
                Yes, it is probable. But I also can say the same about the Americans in Ivodgima, Guadalcanal, Okinawa and so on. I also can say: "Oh, you have made up the tales about furious Japanese resistance. Really they were weak."

                I again repeat that the Soviet vets speak about extremely furious resistance of Japanese troops who fought up to the last soldier. Recall all what you read about Ivogima and Okinawa and imagine that it was happened in a fortified Japanese positions in the region of Madantsyan and in fortified regions along the border.

                Maybe they were tough but I still doubt they were ready for the Soviets after fighting the Chinese for years. No comparison.
                China is a huge country with a huge population. Many Chinese partisans operated in Japanese rears. It is the same to speak Germany was weak because Germany didn't capture USSR up to the Urals.
                Last edited by Andrey; 05 Dec 05, 17:20.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Psycho1943
                  Ok this might take a few posts to cover everything but I will try to keep it short.

                  You still don't grasp my point and I don't think you ever will. I am not trying to convince you that your sources are wrong and Western ones are right. I am saying that you and I don't know the truth about what happened in WW2. We have to read what is written and base things on what they say. I keep saying that I don't know who is more truthfull. I am not the one that keeps saying, "the sources from my side are right and your side is lying propaganda." I am not the one that is saying, "your sources are trying to make my country and our soldiers look bad." Your stance is always that Russian sources are correct and Western sources are lying propaganda. If you don't actually go as far to call it lying propaganda you are still highly suspect of our information.

                  I am trying to tell you to be more open to the possibility that some of your sources could have mistakes or lies or problems and bias in them. I am sure these things exist in Western sources but they are also present in your sources as well.

                  I have never changed my stance on this subject. I am not trying to turn you against Russian sources and completely believe ours. It would be nice if we could just show you parts of different sources and let you make up your mind without knowing which side it comes from.
                  You are fignting against a miracle. I know and understand all what you mean here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Psycho1943
                    We don't have access to the Soviet sources either so we are in the same situation as you. Again as I pointed out before, you complain about mistakes in Glantz works and constantly complain about his writings but seem to blindly accept Russian sources over anything from the West. I am sure you guys have great records of what happened but are you saying there are no mistakes in any of your sources?

                    Sorry but I don't recall anybody from the West here saying that Glantz is the last word on what happened in the East Front battles. He is probably the best source from our side but we aren't claiming he has all the answers. We don't know everything and you and Amvas have mentioned the reason for this yourselves. The archives are not completely open to you guys and especially not open to Westerners. How could he have all the answers when he doesn't even have access to all your sources?
                    When you, guys, will stop to cry about closed Russian archieves?

                    There are a lot of Russian/Soviet data which is FREE avaialable but Western authors don't use it!

                    The info about unit 731 and the plans of Japanese germ war against USSR were widely known a tens years ago in USSR but Western authors even don't mention about it.

                    Sudoplatov's memoirs are FREE available but Glantz even doesn't mention about it. Gareev, the main Russian military historian (he is a serious guy, isn't it? - ), mentions Sudoplatov's memoirs in his article about Operation "Mars" so he have no doubts that Soviet Supreme Command itself informed thre Germans about Operation "Mars".

                    It looks like Western authors prefer to use only those Russian sources that are favorable to their theories.

                    This is your opinion versus his opinion. Your opinion does not necessarily make you right. It is possible that he is right or that you are right. Or maybe you could both be wrong. Maybe Glantz couldn't find any info to back up Sudoplatov, maybe he just doesn't believe him, or maybe he didn't even get to see it. Who knows why? Why don't you get in touch with him and ask him? Unless he says why then we don't know. You make it sound like he just dismisses Russian stuff out of hand on purpose. You aren't there when he does research or writes his books and neither am I.
                    R.N.Armstrong is Glantz's friend. Ask him to connect with Glantz. As I understand he already did it some months ago and Glantz answered something like this: "The Russian officials dislike that I wrote bad about Zhukov and organized a propaganda campaign against me." And as I understand Glantz avoids to discuss Sudoplatov's memoirs, he speaks that it is not reliable, it is only a memoir.

                    Your give sources and say we should believe them. We give a source and you say that it is wrong. You base this on your source being right and that makes ours wrong. Do you understand this cycle? Our sources are always wrong unless they agree with yours. If there is any difference in sources then you believe yours is correct.
                    Think and analyze. I gave you an example how to do it. I made my analyze of the disposition of Japanese "old" and "new" divisions which shows that the Japanese didn't consider "new" divisions weak to fight in main blow directions.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Andrey
                      If it is truth so Soviet Command was very well informed about Japanese Biological Threat and made their plans on the basis of such knowledge.
                      That part you quote shows only part of that.

                      It confirms they knew, it doesn't show that their plan of attack for the Manchurian Campaign was affected by that. However, what it does reveal is that Soviet intelligence was aware that the biological weaponry was not intended for use on the battlefield.

                      I wrote about chemical retardant only in that case.
                      Hair splitting! The point is that precautionary measures against chemo/bio weapons are a normal practice and the mere fact that they are taken proves nothing other than an acknowledgement that the enemy possesses some capability.
                      Signing out.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Full Monty
                        That part you quote shows only part of that.

                        It confirms they knew, it doesn't show that their plan of attack for the Manchurian Campaign was affected by that. However, what it does reveal is that Soviet intelligence was aware that the biological weaponry was not intended for use on the battlefield.
                        There are different plans of actions depending of the type of threat.

                        The troops operate by different way in the condition of possible enemy air threat and without it.

                        There are efforts to reduce the casualties from enemy atomic strike, such efforts reduce the consequancies of an atomic strike but can be the reason of some troubles in battlefield. For example, it means to not concentrate much troops in one place; to use tanks with switching on atomic defense system (Russian T-72 has such systems); all the personnell have to carry gas masks against radioactive dust; additional efforts for the organization of anti-air defense which meant that the troops need much more flak systems as each plane with atomic bomb is much more dangerous that a plane with ordinary bomb; additional efforts for camouflage and so on.

                        The best strategy against using of enemy WMD is to make all possible troubles for enemy.

                        First of all, to move very quickly so an enemy doesn't know where is a frontline and there is a chaos in enemy rears.

                        Stable frontline is ideal for the using of biological weapon.

                        Hair splitting! The point is that precautionary measures against chemo/bio weapons are a normal practice and the mere fact that they are taken proves nothing other than an acknowledgement that the enemy possesses some capability.
                        It is necessary to prepare to the threat that was real. Any unnecessary preparations means to spend resources, time and so on.

                        If the Americans fough in more comfortable uniform so they probably fought better than it was in reality.

                        If the Americans also prepared to biological attack it meant:
                        - to vacinate all the soldiers from a few types of diseases (firstly - to produce a few millions doses of them, then - to transfer it in Britain, then to organize the process); such vacinating can be reason of some decreasing of morale;
                        - to organize special medical groups for the preventing of possible epidemic, those medics could be used in battlefield as conventional medics in other case;
                        - to organize regular looking of all the soldiers for the searching first symptoms of a desiase;
                        - any ill soldier could be the reason of huge panic;
                        - if a soldier is ill by an ordinary disease so the command had to organize additional efforts that are necessary in the case of the threat of the using of a biological weapon; such efforts can continue untill medics stop their researches of the ill person abd define exactly his dusease;
                        - to organize the information of all personnel about different diseases that can be used as a biological weapon, it also can reduce morale;
                        - to organize additional efforts in battlezone - for example, to not drink water from unchecked sources and to not use such water for the preparing of the food; to organize medical checking of all water sources in battlezone;
                        - the soldiers would be afraid of ordinary rats, fleas and so on, if a soldier found a flea he would run to medics instead of continue to fight;
                        - and so on.

                        I suppose that you have to know efforts in the zone of biological threat. It is a very expensive efforts to be prepared to everything. The best method is to define what kind of WMD your enemy has and to protect your soldiers ONLY FROM THAT WMD.
                        Last edited by Andrey; 05 Dec 05, 23:01.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Andrey

                          The best strategy against using of enemy WMD is to make all possible troubles for enemy.

                          First of all, to move very quickly so an enemy doesn't know where is a frontline and there is a chaos in enemy rears.

                          Stable frontline is ideal for the using of biological weapon.
                          True, but what you describe here is standard Blitzkrieg type warfare. It's the most effective form of offensive action and has been practiced by all major armies either during or after WW2 whether WMDs are present or not.

                          If the Americans also prepared to biological attack it meant:
                          - to vacinate all the soldiers from a few types of diseases (firstly - to produce a few millions doses of them, then - to transfer it in Britain, then to organize the process); such vacinating can be reason of some decreasing of morale;
                          - to organize special medical groups for the preventing of possible epidemic, those medics could be used in battlefield as conventional medics in other case;
                          - to organize regular looking of all the soldiers for the searching first symptoms of a desiase;
                          - any ill soldier could be the reason of huge panic;
                          - if a soldier is ill by an ordinary disease so the command had to organize additional efforts that are necessary in the case of the threat of the using of a biological weapon; such efforts can continue untill medics stop their researches of the ill person abd define exactly his dusease;
                          - to organize the information of all personnel about different diseases that can be used as a biological weapon, it also can reduce morale;
                          - to organize additional efforts in battlezone - for example, to not drink water from unchecked sources and to not use such water for the preparing of the food; to organize medical checking of all water sources in battlezone;
                          - the soldiers would be afraid of ordinary rats, fleas and so on, if a soldier found a flea he would run to medics instead of continue to fight;
                          - and so on.

                          I suppose that you have to know efforts in the zone of biological threat. It is a very expensive efforts to be prepared to everything. The best method is to define what kind of WMD your enemy has and to protect your soldiers ONLY FROM THAT WMD.
                          This is just one long speculation which attempts to prove .... well I'm not sure what it attempts to prove! You focus on the Americans for some reason and then hint that they were ill-disciplined. Most vaccines would have been administered prior to the troops shipping to Europe (or whatever combat zone). As you have already pointed out, the Red Army knew some four years prior to the Manchurian Campaign that the Japanese had some biological weapons. The Allied armies would have had at least the same amount of time to prepare for, and vaccinate against, a similar threat. But then we shouldn't get into such speculations because they distract from the main issue
                          Signing out.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Full Monty
                            True, but what you describe here is standard Blitzkrieg type warfare. It's the most effective form of offensive action and has been practiced by all major armies either during or after WW2 whether WMDs are present or not.
                            Answer, how can you be sure that Japanese biological threat DIDN'T influence on the Soviet operations? Did you make special analyze and researches?

                            Any statement must be based on something. What is the base of your statement?

                            I've found the info that Stalin knew about iunit 731 still in June of 1941. So it is possible to suppose that it would influence on Soviet plans.

                            In any case if the situation difficult and it is unknown about the influence of Japanese biological weapon on Soviet plans why do you suppose OK to act like it didn't influence (to not mention unit 731 in the dscription of Msnchurian Campaign means to suppose that it DIDN"T influence). In such situation it is NECESSARY to mention about Japanese biological warfare before there are exact proofs that it didn't influence on the Campaign.

                            This is just one long speculation which attempts to prove .... well I'm not sure what it attempts to prove!
                            It is not speculation it is description that chemical and chemical/biological is not the same.

                            You focus on the Americans for some reason
                            We spoke about anti-chemical uniform of US soldiers in Normandy.

                            and then hint that they were ill-disciplined.
                            ??????

                            All those points were made commonly and can be applied to any army of the world.

                            Most vaccines would have been administered prior to the troops shipping to Europe (or whatever combat zone). As you have already pointed out, the Red Army knew some four years prior to the Manchurian Campaign that the Japanese had some biological weapons. The Allied armies would have had at least the same amount of time to prepare for, and vaccinate against, a similar threat. But then we shouldn't get into such speculations because they distract from the main issue
                            ???? It was only description of the troubles with the protection against biological weapon IF Allies also protected their soldiers from it in Normandy in 1944.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Andrey
                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Full Monty
                              True, but what you describe here is standard Blitzkrieg type warfare. It's the most effective form of offensive action and has been practiced by all major armies either during or after WW2 whether WMDs are present or not.


                              Answer, how can you be sure that Japanese biological threat DIDN'T influence on the Soviet operations? Did you make special analyze and researches?

                              Any statement must be based on something. What is the base of your statement?

                              I've found the info that Stalin knew about iunit 731 still in June of 1941. So it is possible to suppose that it would influence on Soviet plans.
                              "So it is possible to suppose that it would influence on Soviet plans"

                              Andrey, don't put the cart before the horse. Everything I've read so far suggests it has no influence and you've found nothing that proves it does. The burden of proof lies with you, not me since all you have to do is find one major article that plainly states that Malinovsky's (or whoever's) plan involved some maneouvre or strike that was designed to neutralise (or similar) the Japanese WMDs.
                              Last edited by Full Monty; 06 Dec 05, 05:38.
                              Signing out.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andrey
                                It is not speculation it is description that chemical and chemical/biological is not the same.



                                We spoke about anti-chemical uniform of US soldiers in Normandy.



                                ??????

                                All those points were made commonly and can be applied to any army of the world.



                                ???? It was only description of the troubles with the protection against biological weapon IF Allies also protected their soldiers from it in Normandy in 1944.

                                You're making a bit of a meal of this. You spoke of protection against WMDs in general so I dealt with the general point. As to why you think that the Americans would wait until their troops were already in combat before vaccinating them is beyond me. And as for said vaccinations causing disciplinary problems - it's an unwarranted slur on trained soldiers.
                                Signing out.

                                Comment

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