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1945 Manchuria Operation

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  • Trigger Happy
    replied
    thanks Andrey, here are some other more maps from RKKA.ru

    http://www.rkka.ru/maps/dvs1.gif
    http://www.rkka.ru/maps/japan.gif
    http://www.rkka.ru/maps/manchjur.jpg

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  • Andrey
    replied
    And here is another map.
    Attached Files

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  • Andrey
    replied
    At the Saturday I have visited Omsk Province Public Library and looked the “History of WWII”, in 12 volumes, made in 1976.

    The volume 11 describes the actions against Japan in 1945.

    According “History of WWII”, in 12 volumes, made in 1976 in USSR the OOB of Kwantung Army in the August of 1945 was following (the concrete names of the divisions are identified by me on the base of the analysis of the map):

    Its Japanese part had 24 infantry divisions, 9 separate brigades and 2 tank brigades.

    The 4th Separate Army – 3 Infantry Divisions (the 119th, 123rd, 149th), 4 mixed brigades (the 47th, 131st, 135th, 136th).

    The 3rd Front (the 30th and 44th Armies) – 9 Infantry Divisions (the 2nd, 39th, 63rd, 107th, 108th, 117th, 136th, 138th, 148th), 3 mixed brigades (79th, 130th, 133rd) and 2 tank brigades (the 1st, 9th)

    The 1st Front (the 3rd and 5th Armies) – 10 Infantry Divisions (the 1st, 112th, 122nd, 124th, 125th, 126th, 128th, 134th, 135th, 139th), 1 mixed brigade (the 132nd)

    The 34th Army (in Northern Korea) – 2 Infantry Divisions (the 79th, 127th), 1 mixed brigade.

    The 17th Front (in Korea, the 58th Army), from the morning of the August, 10th it got the 34th Army and began a part of Kwantung Army – 7 Infantry Divisions (the 59th, 120th, 137th, 320th and 3 others – out of the map), 2 mixed brigades – its forces were not counted in the common amount of Kwantung Army to the start of the war.

    It is without pro-Japanese Chinese forces.

    Also I found in the map not mentioned infantry brigades –80th (the 3rd Front), 122nd (the 1st Front) and others.

    Look the maps from the book.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Andrey; 06 Nov 05, 18:58.

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    Having been in positions several times during my career, I have witnessed the disparity between the words spoken publically and what was intended privately.
    In the mid-1970's when Kissinger was doing his "shuttle diplomacy" in the middle east, I read his back channel messages to Nixon in the White House. He, on a number of occasions wrote, here is what I told the press, this is what I intend to do. [Which should also indicate to you who can say things and not be in a high position--per your point in msg #114 ]

    While taking a Master's course from Boston University, a young professor was basing his Vietnam War knowledge and expertise on the fact that he had read everything one could in the New York Times and Washington Post archives. In my class was an officer who had been the Public Affairs Officer for the U.S. Army Vietnam. He raised his hand and said, "Let me tell you what we made up for the press when I sat down with the AP and UPI reporters in the Continental Hotel (in Saigon) on the corner of Le Loi and Tu Ya streets."

    Consequently, I am skeptical of public pronouncements. I have more faith in staff officers who are recording their daily actions and thoughts on the spot in reports, thinking of surviving or winning the war than those with statements to posterity in mind.
    You used thye wrong example. It was another case.

    The words of Anami and Umedzu that were mentioned by Alexandrov were spoken not for common public but in internal talkings of supreme Japanese rulers. The fate of their Motherland was decoded in that time and they had no reasons to lie.

    If to suppose that Anami really supposed that Kwantung Army is weak in May-June so he would to speak about it and to try to make huge efforts to reinforce it as the Japanese had 2-3 months before the possible Soviet attack.

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  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    It is not an offer to begin the investigation, it was a "rhetorical question" (is there such ternm in English?)

    It is an example how it is possible to define not-reliable data in the books where Cold War propaganda can be.

    It is only an example that it is wrong to believe in any phrase that is written by you in American sources.

    There is a large conradiction between well known words of Japanese military leaders and between the source that you described. Answer yourself to whom I (and anyone who can think) have to believe? Your source use the phrase "The Japnese spoke..." but didn't speak which the Japanese said it so a reader have an impression that ALL the Japanese leaders supposed that Kwantung Army was very weak. Alexandrov decribes the actions of Supreme Japanese militariers and the events ion the Supreme Soviet for the rule of the war, his info can be cjecked very easy if it is necessary and I doubt he distorted the real situation in such conditions. So I believe more to Alexandrov.

    The phrase that your source used and HOW your source used it give me right to say - IT IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF CLEAR PROPAGANDA AND DISTORTION IN THE STYLE OF SOVIET PROPAGANDA. The Soviet propaganda also used such phrases where unknown "the Germans" and others spoke the words that were profitable to the Soviets.

    If you want to protect your source you have two ways - to find concrete "the Japanese" who really thought bad in 1945 about the combat abilities of Kwantung Army commonly or to prove that Alexandrov wrote false about the opinions of Anami and Umedzu.
    Having been in positions several times during my career, I have witnessed the disparity between the words spoken publically and what was intended privately.
    In the mid-1970's when Kissinger was doing his "shuttle diplomacy" in the middle east, I read his back channel messages to Nixon in the White House. He, on a number of occasions wrote, here is what I told the press, this is what I intend to do. [Which should also indicate to you who can say things and not be in a high position--per your point in msg #114 ]

    While taking a Master's course from Boston University, a young professor was basing his Vietnam War knowledge and expertise on the fact that he had read everything one could in the New York Times and Washington Post archives. In my class was an officer who had been the Public Affairs Officer for the U.S. Army Vietnam. He raised his hand and said, "Let me tell you what we made up for the press when I sat down with the AP and UPI reporters in the Continental Hotel (in Saigon) on the corner of Le Loi and Tu Ya streets."

    Consequently, I am skeptical of public pronouncements. I have more faith in staff officers who are recording their daily actions and thoughts on the spot in reports, thinking of surviving or winning the war than those with statements to posterity in mind.
    Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 30 Oct 05, 07:38.

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  • Andrey
    replied
    In addition.

    The phrase that was used by R.N.Armstrong from US military sources is about Kwantung Army commonly. It means that the Japanese officer who could say it must be a high level commander which is well informed about the situation in ALL Kwantung Army. The amount of such high level commanders is very limited and according my source Anami, Military Minister, and Umedzu, The Chief of General Staff, had opposite opinion about the combat effectiveness of Kwantung Army. Iamada, the Commander of Kwantung Army, reported to Anami about the situation of his army and after his report Anami was sure that the situatin of OK, so Iamada also couldn't say that phrase.

    So I do not know who could say it...

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    Andrey, I do not have access to the original translations of the Japanese records, so I do not know whether these were senior officers or staff officers (who would have more credibility in my book, because they have no stake in alibing or trying to please captors).
    It is not an offer to begin the investigation, it was a "rhetorical question" (is there such ternm in English?)

    It is an example how it is possible to define not-reliable data in the books where Cold War propaganda can be.

    It is only an example that it is wrong to believe in any phrase that is written by you in American sources.

    There is a large conradiction between well known words of Japanese military leaders and between the source that you described. Answer yourself to whom I (and anyone who can think) have to believe? Your source use the phrase "The Japnese spoke..." but didn't speak which the Japanese said it so a reader have an impression that ALL the Japanese leaders supposed that Kwantung Army was very weak. Alexandrov decribes the actions of Supreme Japanese militariers and the events ion the Supreme Soviet for the rule of the war, his info can be cjecked very easy if it is necessary and I doubt he distorted the real situation in such conditions. So I believe more to Alexandrov.

    The phrase that your source used and HOW your source used it give me right to say - IT IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE OF CLEAR PROPAGANDA AND DISTORTION IN THE STYLE OF SOVIET PROPAGANDA. The Soviet propaganda also used such phrases where unknown "the Germans" and others spoke the words that were profitable to the Soviets.

    If you want to protect your source you have two ways - to find concrete "the Japanese" who really thought bad in 1945 about the combat abilities of Kwantung Army commonly or to prove that Alexandrov wrote false about the opinions of Anami and Umedzu.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    Who from the Japanese did say it?

    I gave you enough info of the speeches of the highest Japanese militaries - General Anami, the Minister of Defence, and General Umedzu, the Chief of General Staff.

    They knew the situation in Kwantung Army very well; Anami specially visited Kwantung Army to estimate its combat readiness for the defensive actions against possible Soviet advance in Manchuria, and Anami was glad by the results of that inspection.

    On the Supreme Soviet for the Rule of the War the conclusions of Anami werenot doubted. It means that all the Japanese leaders supposed that Kwantung Army is strong enough.

    So answer, WHO did say the phrase you quoted? WHO?
    Andrey, I do not have access to the original translations of the Japanese records, so I do not know whether these were senior officers or staff officers (who would have more credibility in my book, because they have no stake in alibing or trying to please captors).

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    The words of captured General Kita, the Commander of the 1st Front of Kwantung Army, which were said him to Soviet officers in August, 20th:

    “…In 1943 the Japanese had a few failures in the region of southern seas, and the Japanese Command began to transfer some part [not the best, not the most part – rem. of Andrey] of the units of Kwantung Army in the Pacific in the zone of active actions.

    Then the Allies had approached to the territory of the mother land in 1944, and the Japanese command began to form large army in Japan. The Japanese command made that army, forming new 10,000 staff divisions on the base of old divisions of 20,000 staff. In that period Manchuria was considered deep rears for the Great Empire so the forming of those troops was in Manchuria…”

    What are the conclusions?

    Yes, some units were transferred. But Kita didn’t say “the best units, the most part of units”.

    The transferring of the units began in 1943 but Kwantung Army turned its strategy from advance to defence ONLY A YEAR later, in the end of 1944. It means that the losing of the units transferred in 1943 and in 1944 was not too significant to change the plans to advance.

    The second statement means that Manchuria was used as the training area for newly formed units due to its safety from Allied bombing raids and it is wrong to suppose that it was because Kwantung Army was considered an auxiliary direction and got a lot of newly formed division instead of the best ones.

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by tigersqn
    I'm surprised you never heard of the Japanese 26th Tank Rgt.

    This unit was being shipped to the Marianas when the ship was torpedoed off the island of Saipan. All the tanks were lost and IIRC there were only 300 survivors or so.
    OK, it is about one tank regiment. In August of 1945 Kwantung Army 1,200 tanks. One tank regiments can contain about 100 tanks. So what, do you suppose it was a too important for Manchurian troops to lose that tank regiment?

    Japanese 6th Div was shipped to Rabaul just in time to be cut off by the US advance across the SW Pacific.
    38th Div was shipped to Guadalcanal from Manchukuo and wiped out there.
    62nd Div shipped to Okinawa from Manchukuo and wiped out there.

    I could name off several more formations but that would require a little more time & research.
    1. OK, what are the proofs that those units were the best amnd the remaining were worse?

    2. What was the amount of the remaining units?

    What are the reasons to speak that the most part of the best units was transferred in the Pacific?

    3. Guadalcanal, Okinawa...

    The Japanese fought very furiously there. It shows enough the quality of the units of Kwantung Army.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    The Japanese considered none of the Kwantung Army divisions combat ready and some divisions only 15 percent ready.
    Who from the Japanese did say it?

    I gave you enough info of the speeches of the highest Japanese militaries - General Anami, the Minister of Defence, and General Umedzu, the Chief of General Staff.

    They knew the situation in Kwantung Army very well; Anami specially visited Kwantung Army to estimate its combat readiness for the defensive actions against possible Soviet advance in Manchuria, and Anami was glad by the results of that inspection.

    On the Supreme Soviet for the Rule of the War the conclusions of Anami werenot doubted. It means that all the Japanese leaders supposed that Kwantung Army is strong enough.

    So answer, WHO did say the phrase you quoted? WHO?

    Leave a comment:


  • Weeble
    replied
    For those that can't read Russian...

    The book is:

    Great Victory in the Far East: August 1945: from Transbaykal to Korea.

    Aleksandrov A.A.

    Price: 85 rub.
    Publishing house: Meeting
    Solid binding
    ISBN: 5-9533-0452-8
    Pages: 416
    Yr of publication: 2004
    Last edited by Weeble; 21 Oct 05, 20:43.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    Here it is.
    Andrey,

    Thanks, I had ten of the short bibliography list. I can get the Great Victory... through Eastview (I did not have a writing project to drive its acquisition.).

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    Andrey can you provide the reference: author, title, publisher, date published?
    Here it is.
    Attached Files

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  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    I have translated not everything but that what was related to Manchuria.

    I spent a few hours for it.

    If you want you can try to search yourself what the Japanese leaders spoke in those meetings, I suppose that it is opened information.

    And yes, the book I havecontain a lot of data that speak Atomic bombs were not too significant, the joining of USSR to the war and the collapse of Kwantung Army were significant. The book describes military actions in Manchuria and the talkings in Tokyo between Japanese leaders. It gives a very detailed picture of the events.
    Andrey can you provide the reference: author, title, publisher, date published?

    Leave a comment:

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