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1945 Manchuria Operation

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    I.M. Tret'yak was commander of the Far East Military District at the time of the article that bears his name(although he fought as a Gds Major commanding a Gds Rifle Bn in the 10th Gds Army in the 2nd Baltic Front--won Hero of the Soviet Union in 1945). Military History Journal every ten years in the anniversary month of the Manchurian campaign brought out a series of articles with a main piece:

    August 1965 - Campaign for Far East
    August 1975 - Destruction of Kwantung Army

    As you point out in this one, the others never raised the tactical, operational, or strategic encounters with biological warfare during the operation.
    The Japanese didn't use their biological weapon; they could use it if the Soviets advanced not so fast.

    I don't know why the Soviet author you mentioned didn't say anything about biological weapon. May be, he didn't write about it as the Japanese didn't use it.
    May be, he didn't know about it when he wrote it.

    If you want you can study the info about Habarovsk Trial in 1947 (?) where former members, been captured by the Soviets, were judged. In those materials there are a lot of data how the Japanese prepared biological war against USSR.

    But the simpliest way is to rerad Morimura's book.

    Here it is in Russian:
    http://militera.lib.ru/research/morimura/index.html

    To the point, Morimura speaks that US intelligence used the experience of Japanese unit 731 for the making of US biological weapon. The US intelligence captured Colonel Isii. Colonel Isii was not punished as military criminal, he gave his knowledge to the Americans. Morimura spoke with the interpreteur who took part in the interrogations of Colonel Isii.

    Morimura writes that the Americans used biological weapon in Korean war against Northern Korea. The construction of US biological bombs was very similar the the Japanese ones of 1945. And he writes that Isii and a few other Japanese experts in biological weapon were in Southern Korea in that time and continued their experiments on captured Chinese voluinteers.

    It looks like Morimura was father of US biological weapon like Verner Von Brown, the fasther of German V-2 missiles, was the father of US space rockets.

    No one member of Japanese unit 731 was punished by Western Allies as military criminal. Only the members who were captured by USSR were punished. Practically all of them had survived in a Soviet camps (they lived in one special camp) and returned in Japan later.

    May be, it explains why the Americans were not let to read Morimura's book...
    Last edited by Andrey; 21 Nov 05, 00:08.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    And it was a Soviet publication which can be obtained from

    http://www.redarmystudies.net/smhj/1985/1985_08.pdf
    I.M. Tret'yak was commander of the Far East Military District at the time of the article that bears his name(although he fought as a Gds Major commanding a Gds Rifle Bn in the 10th Gds Army in the 2nd Baltic Front--won Hero of the Soviet Union in 1945). Military History Journal every ten years in the anniversary month of the Manchurian campaign brought out a series of articles with a main piece:

    August 1965 - Campaign for Far East
    August 1975 - Destruction of Kwantung Army

    As you point out in this one, the others never raised the tactical, operational, or strategic encounters with biological warfare during the operation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    It was in the August of 1985, it was during the Cold War.
    And it was a Soviet publication which can be obtained from

    http://www.redarmystudies.net/smhj/1985/1985_08.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • Wolfe Tone
    replied
    in the book "Kio Ku Mitsu" by Korolkov about Rikhard Zorge

    Almost finished a book about him called

    Sorge: Russia's Master-Spy
    The Man with Three Faces


    by Hans-Otto Meissner

    He got to know Sorge when he was posted to the German Embassy in Tokyo and Sorge was a 'journalist' based there.

    Amazing story about how Sorge and his spy team achieved so much.

    Not that the Japanese were smiling much!

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong
    Biological weapons are over-rated for tactical operations since they are hard to deliver, control, and ensure it doesn't backfire on your own troops.

    It has great value in the hands of terrorists for the shock effect versus relative casualties--remember anthrax in post offices.
    The Japanese planned 3 types of the using of bacteriums:

    1 Saboteurs-kamikaze (such 20 soldiers used biological weapon against Soviet_mongol troops in Khalkhin-Gol (Nomongan) Conflict in 1939)

    2 Artillery.

    3 Bomber-planes.

    The Japanese had designed and produced in large scale special porcelain shells and bombs for biological weapon. Also they planned to spread bacteriums cloud from planes and to throw infected fleas. The saboteurs had to throw bacteriums in water sources and to release infected rats in enemy territory.

    There was the Japanese documentary fim about the using of biological weapon in Nimbo in China in 1940 where bacteriums were spreaded from a plane. The film was made in 1940 and was shown for the group of Japanese journalist as a proof of the existense of Japanese most powerful weapon in the possible war against USSR. This film also was mentioned in a few other sources.

    The Japanese had designed the method of the store of bacteriums in dry state where it was necesary only to add to them a little water and nutrient broth for making them active.

    The Japanese unit 100 researched and had to use the methods to infect cattle by dangerous bacteriums.

    In the case of the Soviet Offensive its soldiers had to unfect all the sources of water supply in the lost territory. Also unit 100 had a herd of cattle and it was planned to infect it by dangerous bacteriums and to leave it in occupied by enemy territory with the purpose that the Soviets would take that cattle, would mix them with other cattle and the epidemic would begin between much cattle in Soviet territory.

    Morimura describes that it were unit 100's men who throwed bacteriums in the river flowing into the border river of Sungari flowing in Soviet territory in summer of 1942. He writes that they did it very often. The ordinary soldiers who did it were not informed what was result of their activity.

    Also the Japanese researched the methods of infection of plant.

    About the using in military targets.

    May be, it was not effective in tactical combats but it is effective in strategical scale.

    The Japanese planned to use it in enemy rears and against first line troops. The idea was that it would been very difficult for enemy to advance if epidemic would begin in the enemy's rears. The soldiers would ill, the civilians would ill and the enemy had to send a lot of medics for medical treatment. The enemy had to quarantine large area and it would be large problem for the enemy's advance in a battlefield. The significant part of water and cattle also would be infected. The advancing troops would be forced to use water and food from deep own rears where the water and food wouldn't be infected. It would be a huge problem to supply troops by water and food in large distances.

    Also it was possible simply to organize an epidemic in the territory that had to be lost soon and the enemy soldiers would be affraid to advance in infected area.

    About own troops - the Japanese also researched the methods of defense against their bacteriums and their troops could get antidote or could be vaccinated preliminary. In any case enemy would suffer much more than own troops.

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  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    Just been reading through some of the articles in the 'Military History Journal' (No.8, Aug. 1985) and there's no mention of any biological or chemical weapon usage in the Manchurian Campaign there either. There's not even a reference to any threat from their potential usage either.
    It was in the August of 1985, it was during the Cold War.

    Did you read Morimura's "Devil's kitchen"?

    Unit 731 was not alone such unit, the Japanese had unit 100 (bacteriums for the animals), unit 516 (chemical weapon) and units like unit 731 in Norethern, Central, Southern China and in the region of Southetn Seas. Morimura speaks that the Japanese used their weapon not once. For example, he decribes that the Japanese used biological weapon in China in Syangui in 1944 when the Japanese throwed biological weapon in the river of Yanttsytsyan. In result there was an epidemic in Japanese troops.

    Unit 731 officially was called "Department of Water Supply and Prophylaxis of Kwantung Army."

    I can say that it decribed very well in Russian sources for ordinary public.

    Unit 731 and the biological weapon were mentioned:
    - in a few documentary films about Manchurian campaign of 1945,
    - in the Soviet movie "Through the Ghobi and the Khingan" about Manchurian Campaign of 1945,
    - in the book "Kio Ku Mitsu" by Korolkov about Rikhard Zorge.

    It is the sources that I have recalled right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Just been reading through some of the articles in the 'Military History Journal' (No.8, Aug. 1985) and there's no mention of any biological or chemical weapon usage in the Manchurian Campaign there either. There's not even a reference to any threat from their potential usage either.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Biological weapons are over-rated for tactical operations since they are hard to deliver, control, and ensure it doesn't backfire on your own troops.

    It has great value in the hands of terrorists for the shock effect versus relative casualties--remember anthrax in post offices.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist
    No, I have not. As I have stated, the Japanese made use of chemical weapons in China on a few occasions mainly because there was no real chance of retaliation. Even so, the use was very limited because they knew their own armed forces and civilian population were very vulnerable. The reason they kept their activities so quiet (just like every other nation developing these weapons) was to protect the development of the weapons. With the exception of human experimentation, all the major powers in WWII had chemical warfare units and research groups. Unit 731 was notorious because of its crimes against humanity, not just the development of the weapons themselves.
    By other words, you have perfunctory knowledge what unit 731 was.

    And you second time used term chemical instead if biological. Firstly I decided that it was your misprint but now you again used the term of "chemical".

    Unit 731 was related to biological weapon. Do you understand the difference between biological amnd chemical weapon? Did you hear about Japanese BIOLOGICAL weapon?

    Read something serious about unit 731.

    Yet despite having the ability to use chemical and biological weapons against the Red Army in 1945, there are no reports of their actual use on a large scale. Even Soviet reports released to the west do not make reference to their use.
    The Japanese had no time to use their biliogical weapon so there are no such reports about in 1945.

    I do not deny that some were used by the Japanese (but have seen no actual sources) but it does not appear to have had much effect on operations nor have we heard about retaliation by the Red Army.
    Do you understand what you speak? Do you really suppose that large amount of WMD couldn't have much effect on combat operations?

    Considering the scope of the war in general or even just the Manchurian campaign, one such unit would not and could not have much of an effect.
    That unit was the research lab and the plant of biological weapon. It was the same like US plant which produced atomic bombs.

    It looks like you don't know what unit 731 was.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    Did you read Morimura's "Devils's Kitchen" book about "unit 731"?

    No, I have not. As I have stated, the Japanese made use of chemical weapons in China on a few occasions mainly because there was no real chance of retaliation. Even so, the use was very limited because they knew their own armed forces and civilian population were very vulnerable. The reason they kept their activities so quiet (just like every other nation developing these weapons) was to protect the development of the weapons. With the exception of human experimentation, all the major powers in WWII had chemical warfare units and research groups. Unit 731 was notorious because of its crimes against humanity, not just the development of the weapons themselves.

    Originally posted by Andrey
    Also it contains some data that the Japanese had large hope on their biliogical weapon in the case of the war aggainst USSR.
    Yet despite having the ability to use chemical and biological weapons against the Red Army in 1945, there are no reports of their actual use on a large scale. Even Soviet reports released to the west do not make reference to their use. I do not deny that some were used by the Japanese (but have seen no actual sources) but it does not appear to have had much effect on operations nor have we heard about retaliation by the Red Army.

    Considering the scope of the war in general or even just the Manchurian campaign, one such unit would not and could not have much of an effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist
    Andrey, you really need to relax and look at things with less emotion. Yes, the US used two atomic weapons against Japan, there is no dispute. However, we were talking about battlefield use of chemical and biological weapons, of which there was little or no widespread use. Both sides had the capabilities to inflict massive casualties both against military and civilian targets but refrained from their used (with the exceptions of some cases in China). If, as you say, the Japanese made use of chemical weapons against Red Army troops in 1945, it has not been widely reported by Soviet/Russian sources in the west.

    It is not a conspiracy except for those who wish to see conspiracy in everything they see, touch, read or hear. Relax.
    Did you read Morimura's "Devils's Kitchen" book about "unit 731"?

    It contains data about the using of bilogical weapon in the war against China in 1940 in the region of Nimbo, during the Khalkhin-Gol (Nomongan) Conflict against USSR and Mongolia and that the Japanese very often throwed in the rivers flowing inside the territory of USSR large amount of dangerous bacteriums (the author describes very well one such case in the summer of 1942).

    Also it contains some data that the Japanese had large hope on their biliogical weapon in the case of the war aggainst USSR.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    And your "thankfully" is a very strange as US used WMD-Atomic weapon. You deleted it from the list of WMD. I suppose if the Americans throwed of a poison-gas in Hiroshima so you also deleed chemical weapon from your list...
    For Russians it looks like a real conspiracy.
    Andrey, you really need to relax and look at things with less emotion. Yes, the US used two atomic weapons against Japan, there is no dispute. However, we were talking about battlefield use of chemical and biological weapons, of which there was little or no widespread use. Both sides had the capabilities to inflict massive casualties both against military and civilian targets but refrained from their used (with the exceptions of some cases in China). If, as you say, the Japanese made use of chemical weapons against Red Army troops in 1945, it has not been widely reported by Soviet/Russian sources in the west.

    It is not a conspiracy except for those who wish to see conspiracy in everything they see, touch, read or hear. Relax.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    And to me that reads like paranoia

    If you're familiar with the Holocaust then you'll know that the Nazis did use chemical weapons in the same manner that 'Unit 731' used them against the Chinese.
    Oh, not, I meant not this.

    The Japanese used biological weapon against the Chinese not only inside of "unit 731". They used it against Chinese villages in occupied territories and they used it in the rears of Chinese troops in territories which were under the control of Gomindan. The Japanese used planes and saboteurs for it.

    Also the Japanese used biological weapon against the Soviets. They often throw mortal bacteriums in the water of border rivers and sent saboteurs for the actions in Soviet territory.

    If it is necessary I can look concrete examples.

    You should also be aware that the British had plans to use chemical and/or biological weaponry against the Germans. Some remote Scottish islands are still contaminated by the results of the tests conducted. But 'plan' does not necessarily equal 'intent' and certainly not 'usage'.

    How does your conspiracy theory read now?

    But then we have the 'Indianapolis'. Had it sunk and Japan still surrendered then the programme would have remained secret ... or at least until Soviet espionage chose to reveal it anyway
    In the case of the Japanese they WERE READY to use it.

    Also I recalled that I read somewhere that the Japanese tried to use biological weapon against the Americans in an island of the Pacific but the submarine with that weapon was sank by an Allied ship befire it had arrived to the island.

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  • Full Monty
    replied
    For Russians it looks like a real conspiracy.
    And to me that reads like paranoia

    If you're familiar with the Holocaust then you'll know that the Nazis did use chemical weapons in the same manner that 'Unit 731' used them against the Chinese.

    You should also be aware that the British had plans to use chemical and/or biological weaponry against the Germans. Some remote Scottish islands are still contaminated by the results of the tests conducted. But 'plan' does not necessarily equal 'intent' and certainly not 'usage'.

    How does your conspiracy theory read now?

    But then we have the 'Indianapolis'. Had it sunk and Japan still surrendered then the programme would have remained secret ... or at least until Soviet espionage chose to reveal it anyway

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist
    Did they use them against either the US forces in the Pacific or the Russian troops in Manchuria? Not that I am aware of.
    Incorrect. The Japanese were ready to use it and had real plans of using their biological weapon.

    And may be it will be new for you but the Japanese REALLY USED their biological weapon against China and USSR.

    They used it a few times against China, there are a lot of evidences of former members of Japanse "unit 731" about it. They used it in limited amount against USSR with saboteurs who operated in Mongolia and in Soviet territory.

    The Japanese WERE READY to use it still in August of 1939 during Khalkhin-Gol (Nomongan) events AFTER their offensive. BUT Zhukov suddenly began HIS offensive and crushed Japanese forces so Japan had to make peace agreement and the using of biological weapon was not useful.

    All the plans of the Japanese offensive against USSR in 1941-43 REALLY CONSIDERED considered large scale using of biological weapon.

    The Japanese plans of 1945 of the defence against Soviet offensive REALLY CONSIDERED the using of biological weapon.

    So the Japanese were ready to use biological weapon a few times but they didn't do it because:
    - in 1939 Zhukov crushed their troops in the border of Mongolia,
    - in 1941 Soviet soldiers showed unexpected firmness and the Japanese didn't risk to attack USSR (the Japanese were ready to attack USSR in the case of the downfall of Moscow)
    - in 1942 Soviet soldiers again showed unexpected firmness in Stalingrad and the Japanese again didn't risk to attack USSR (the Japanese were ready to attack USSR in the case of the downfall of Stalingrad)
    - in 1945 Soviet troops advanced so quickly and so successfully that the Japanese
    didn't suppose that they have any chance to stop them and had decided that it was time to stop the war.

    The Nazis, US, UK and USSR also had chemical/biological warfare units but no one seemed ready to sink to that level (thankfully). They existed everywhere but were used nowhere, so they are generally left out of battle descriptions.
    OK, imagine that "Indianapolic" was sank BEFORE he transported the Atomic bombs to B-29 bombers in the Pacific and there were no Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Or the Japanese suddenly surrendered in August, 1st with the same consequance.

    Is it a reason to speak that it is wrong to mention about US Atomic bombs???? Very strange.

    And your "thankfully" is a very strange as US used WMD-Atomic weapon. You deleted it from the list of WMD. I suppose if the Americans throwed of a poison-gas in Hiroshima so you also deleed chemical weapon from your list...

    It is not a conspiracy or an oversight,...just a non sequitor.
    For Russians it looks like a real conspiracy.

    Leave a comment:

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