Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

1945 Manchuria Operation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey


    As I know the Soviet Command didn't know about unit 731 and that the Japnese biological weapon is ready to be used.

    But the Soviet Command took several measures to prevent the Japanese to defend according their plans. The Soviet Command made huge efforts to cheat the Japanese about the time and the directions of Soviet blows in Manchuria.

    It was made in the same scale like Western Allies did in D-day.

    The Soviet Command got element of surprise in the questions of the time and in the direction of the blows especially in the Western part of Manchuria.
    So we can agree for the time being that the WMDs had no effect on Red Army plans or subsequent operations.

    The Japanese Biological Weapon is related to the question of the strength of Kwantung Army. When the Soviets had begun their advance Kwantung Army was not ready to defend in all its might and it is true not only for biological weapon but and for other ordinary units and wepons.

    The Soviets won not because Kwantung Army was weak like Western authors decribe it, the Soviets had won so easy because the Soviet Command won the Japanese in strategical level and didn't let the Japanese to use Kwantung Army in its full force.
    I'd agree on the deception part (or cheating as you put it) being important to the victory (as it is to so many successful operations) but if all their fighting capability was equally affected, why did they only use the conventional weapons? Were there no contingency plans for the use of WMDs as there obviously were for normal weapons in the event of an attack?
    Stephen Ambrose decribes it enough seriously to believe him.
    I'm sure he believed it to be true. All I'm saying is that I'm yet to read that anywhere else.

    Regarding Japanese naval capabilities and plans, they were pipe dreams as were their 'plans' to attack the American West Coast with biological weapons. Their naval codes had been long cracked and they were virtually out of fuel for both their army, air force and navy. Yes we can speculate on the possible usage of biological weapons by the Japanese in the same way we can speculate on their possible usage by the Germans in late 1944 or 1945. If anything the German threat was greater because they had the V2 rockets to deliver them with.

    Here we differ. I understand your argument that in your opinion the WMDs stockpiled in Manchuria and China should be counted as part of the strength of the Kwantung Army even though they had no effect on the conduct of the campaign. I respectfully differ because similar capabilities were available to other armies fighting other campaigns (as outlined above) but are not considered relevant in the histories of those. So my opinion is that they can be left out of a history of the Manchurian Campaign without lessening the understanding of it. Maybe they belong in a wider discussion of the factors behind the non-usage (generally) of chemical and/or biological weapons in WW2.

    Anyway, I think we've laid out our positions pretty well and we've reached an impasse in this particular discussion. It's been most fun and I've discovered some interesting facts and ideas that I was previously less aware of. So until we 'butt heads' again ......

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    I accept your points made but it's not a question of relevence so much as it is emphasis. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see that knowledge of the Japanese WMD capability is necessary to understand the Manchurian Campaign.
    It is necessary to mention to understand what the Japanese had hopes for.

    It doesn't appear to have influenced Soviet planning or Japanese dispositions prior to the attack. Neither does it appear to have influenced either army's conduct of the battle once it had started. Until I read otherwise their presence in and around Manchuria in 1945 is an interesting side issue to the camoaign but little more.
    It influenced on Japanese plans of the war against USSR.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    Cheers Andrey, I'm glad you found the links interesting.

    Regarding the biological weapons and the points you raise (and in no particular order).

    1. Churchill was certainly prepared to use whatever weaponry was available, including chemical and biological, had the situation required it. If the British had tested it they would certainly have had the capability to use it, although I would suspect they didn't have very much at that time. The problem with confirming or denying the extent of that capability is that a large proportion of Government records of the time are not available at present.
    It is only your opinion what Churchill would do in 1940.

    To test one home-made bomb (to the point, there is no data about the success of that testing) is not the same to provide troops by enough amount of such bombs and to teach militaries to use it.

    All what the Britishes were able to do is only to drop a few bombs. It is not the same as large scale biological war to which Japan was ready in 1945.

    2. The author you're referring to is Stephen Ambrose. I've not read about that in any other book or article and neither have I seen it mentioned in any television programme.
    Stephen Ambrose decribes it enough seriously to believe him.

    4. I don't think 15th Army's possible deployment to Normandy and the Japanese WMDs fall into the same category UNLESS there is evidence that the Red Army factored in their possible usage and planned accordingly. After all, the Western Allies took several measures to prevent the armys deployment south and they have to be included in any major history to account for the strategy of both sides. Is this true of the Manchurian campaign?
    As I know the Soviet Command didn't know about unit 731 and that the Japnese biological weapon is ready to be used.

    But the Soviet Command took several measures to prevent the Japanese to defend according their plans. The Soviet Command made huge efforts to cheat the Japanese about the time and the directions of Soviet blows in Manchuria.

    It was made in the same scale like Western Allies did in D-day.

    The Soviet Command got element of surprise in the questions of the time and in the direction of the blows especially in the Western part of Manchuria.

    The Japanese Biological Weapon is related to the question of the strength of Kwantung Army. When the Soviets had begun their advance Kwantung Army was not ready to defend in all its might and it is true not only for biological weapon but and for other ordinary units and wepons.

    The Soviets won not because Kwantung Army was weak like Western authors decribe it, the Soviets had won so easy because the Soviet Command won the Japanese in strategical level and didn't let the Japanese to use Kwantung Army in its full force.

    So the question of full strength Kwantung Army is the same as the full strength of the German troops in Normandy (I mean combined forces of the 7th and 15th Armies in Normandy instead of the forces of only the 7th one). To the Japanese to use full strength of Kwantung Arnmy meant to sent a little troops in Grand Khingan crossings and to be ready only 2-3 weeks earlier then they supposed in that time. All those possible Japanese efforts were real in 1945 and they could be the reason of other result of Manchurian Campaign.

    If the Japanese stopped the Soviets in Manchuria and then began to drop germ bombs in the rears of Soviet troops in Manchuria, in Soviet territory and in US Western coast so it would become a very serious problem. It couldn't let Japan to win but it could be reason of the death of millions or even of a few dozens millions people in USSR, China, USA. Such scenario is impossible without the mentioning of the Japanese biological weapon, if to not mention the Japanese biological weapon so if Kwantung Army stopped the Soviets in Manchuria it would mean only longer Japanese resistance.

    So the Japanese Biological Weapon was strategical level weapon. The Soviets occupied Manchuria and the Japanese lost all the stores of biological weapon and the plant of biological weapon (the main base of unit 731 in Pinfang). Also Japan lost its last source of fuel and of other supply.

    5. I don't think you can claim the USSR saved the US from possible biological attack. The only capability the Japanese had to launch these weapons was by balloon and though they had dropped a few bombs that way they hadn't launched very many. Additionally, even without the A-Bombs and the Manchurian Campaign Japan was already very close to defeat. There is some interesting information to be had at www.doug-long.com - not particularly relevant to our debate but still an interesting source.
    The first article that you had mentioned about unit 731 contains enough info about the Japanese plans of biologicall attack against USA. They planned to use balloons AND submarines carrying planes with "kamikaze". In August of 1945 the Japanese surface ships couldn't operate but their submarines were able to reach the Western coast of USA (and, of course, all other places in the Pacific). As I remember the Japanese planned to attack USA in September of 1945.
    I suppose that even a few germ bombs dropped on Los Angeles, San-Diego or San-Francisko were able to become the reason of huge epidemic in those cities (and outside of those cities) with large amount of dead civilians. The Japnese could use Manchuria which was not under US bombs as the base for such operations.
    Last edited by Andrey; 24 Nov 05, 20:58.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey

    Akiyama Hiroshi, a former member of unit 731, wrote in his memoir that the Japanese members of unit 731 were spoken by their leaders: "We have ability to kill 100 millions people and we shall do it if it is necessary for the saving of the Empire."


    Especially ALL enemy forces MUST be mentioned if to discuss the common situation before a battle and the strength of opposing forces. We SPOKE about common combat ability of Kwantung Army when I began to speak about Japanese Biological weapon and unit 731. Unit 731 had provided Kwantung Army by huge amount of Biological weapon and Kwantung Army was ready to use it.


    I repeat again that Japanese Biological weapon was related to Manchurian Campaign as Kwantung Army was ready to use it in the case of better situation in the frontline or if the Japanese more exactly knew where and when the Soviets will advance.
    I accept your points made but it's not a question of relevence so much as it is emphasis. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see that knowledge of the Japanese WMD capability is necessary to understand the Manchurian Campaign. It doesn't appear to have influenced Soviet planning or Japanese dispositions prior to the attack. Neither does it appear to have influenced either army's conduct of the battle once it had started. Until I read otherwise their presence in and around Manchuria in 1945 is an interesting side issue to the camoaign but little more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Cheers Andrey, I'm glad you found the links interesting.

    Regarding the biological weapons and the points you raise (and in no particular order).

    1. Churchill was certainly prepared to use whatever weaponry was available, including chemical and biological, had the situation required it. If the British had tested it they would certainly have had the capability to use it, although I would suspect they didn't have very much at that time. The problem with confirming or denying the extent of that capability is that a large proportion of Government records of the time are not available at present.

    2. The author you're referring to is Stephen Ambrose. I've not read about that in any other book or article and neither have I seen it mentioned in any television programme.

    3. Yes there's a difference between early research and large scale capability so maybe my example was a bad one (see pt.1). A better example may be the either the Strategic Bomber Offensive or the D-Day landings and the subsequent battles in Western Europe. Here there is a definite capability but it is rarely mentioned (as is the German incidentally). http://www.julianlewis.net/local_news_detail.php?id=9

    4. I don't think 15th Army's possible deployment to Normandy and the Japanese WMDs fall into the same category UNLESS there is evidence that the Red Army factored in their possible usage and planned accordingly. After all, the Western Allies took several measures to prevent the armys deployment south and they have to be included in any major history to account for the strategy of both sides. Is this true of the Manchurian campaign?

    5. I don't think you can claim the USSR saved the US from possible biological attack. The only capability the Japanese had to launch these weapons was by balloon and though they had dropped a few bombs that way they hadn't launched very many. Additionally, even without the A-Bombs and the Manchurian Campaign Japan was already very close to defeat. There is some interesting information to be had at www.doug-long.com - not particularly relevant to our debate but still an interesting source.

    You have to agree that Kwantung Army with large amount of biological weapon and Kwantung Army withouth it are completely different things....
    Indeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    Sorry Andrey, I forget English is not a native language for you

    http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/731rev.htm has some interesting points to make.

    http://www.ww2pacific.com/unit731.html offers a brief overview of Unit 731's activities as well as providing several links to other sites.

    Obviously Andrey these will provide you with nothing new but for anyone else they offer a reasonable introduction to the subject.
    Wow, it is a very good articles. And those articles confirm practically everything about the Japanese Biological Warfare that I had given from Soviet/Russian sources!!!!!!! The first article even has some info about the Japanese plans to use their biological weapon against USSR in Manchurian Casmpaign.

    And I draw your attention that the researches described in the first article became something shocking and new for the Westerners. It means that before that articles the most part of the data about Japanese Biological Warfare was unknown for the Westerners (hidden by US government) in the spite of the fact that the Soviet were informed about it from the 50th years!!!!![/QUOTE]


    By way of a comparison the British tested Anthrax bombs on a remote Scottish island in 1940 but I've yet to see it mentioned in a book about the Battle of Britain.
    The difference in the stage of the preparing of the weapon to it's large scale using.

    Some Britishes tested a bomb. So what? How many such bombs had Britain in that time? Was Churchill ready to order to use it? Did the Britishes know enough how to use such bombs? Had the Britishes a concrete plan of the using of that weapon?

    There is a large difference between researches in their initial stage and readiness to its large scale using. In 1945 the Japanese were producing biological weapon serially, they knew how to use it and have enough experience in it, they had germ bombs for the planes and germ shells for the guns, they had huge amount of infected rats for saboteurs, they had a lot of infected cattle. In 1945 the Japanese Command morally was ready to use their biological weapon.

    Akiyama Hiroshi, a former member of unit 731, wrote in his memoir that the Japanese members of unit 731 were spoken by their leaders: "We have ability to kill 100 millions people and we shall do it if it is necessary for the saving of the Empire."

    My point is that we are discussing the Manchurian Campaign of 1945 specifically. If various (it doesn't need to be all and I never claimed it was all) Soviet writers do not feel that the biological weapons are of any significance to it then there should not be any surprise that 'Western' historians do not choose to mention it.
    The Japanese biological weapon is related with Manchurian Campaign!!!! If an enemy had a powerful weapon but hadn't use it it doesn't mean that it is wrong to speak about that weapon.

    The Japanese biological weapon was ready to use in 1945!!!! That weapon was in Manchuria in large amount, it was right in the arear of the operations of Soviet Troops.

    For example, your enemy had 10 tank divisions in reserve but hadn't used them in a battle due a few reasons. Does it mean that those divisions had no to be mentioned? The good example in the German 15th Army in June-July of 1944 which stayed in Pa-De-Calle in that time and didn't take part in the battle for Normandy. Is it right to suppose that the 15th Army is not related to the battle for Normandy????

    Especially ALL enemy forces MUST be mentioned if to discuss the common situation before a battle and the strength of opposing forces. We SPOKE about common combat ability of Kwantung Army when I began to speak about Japanese Biological weapon and unit 731. Unit 731 had provided Kwantung Army by huge amount of Biological weapon and Kwantung Army was ready to use it.

    Practically EVERY book about the batte for Normandy describes how Allied Command worried that the Germans would send the 15th Army in Normandy. the Germans didn't do it in reality but they had chance to change the situation and such possibility is discussed without problems. It was not a fantastic like "what if Germany had 1,000 Jet planes in June of 1944" and so on, it was absolutely real possibility.

    About Soviet writers who don't speak about Japanese Biological Weapon... I read "D-day" book by (... I don't remember his name, he wrote "Band of Brothers"). The author describes that the Allied soldiers had very unsuitable uniform in June of 1944. That uniform was very stinking and cold. It was because that uniform was prepared for case if the Germans would use poison-gas. The author wrote that the Allied Comand seriously worried that the Germans would use poison-gas. Of course, it influentedon the campaign in some scale. But I didn't read about it in other books that I read. If only one author wrote about it it does it mean that it didn't happened???

    If we're broadening the debate to the Japanese possession of 'WMDs' then that's another matter entirely. However, it is pretty well documented over here - I have seen television programmes about it and read articles that refer to it.
    Yes, but you are informed mainly about experiments over humen and you draw attention only on it.

    I repeat again that Japanese Biological weapon was related to Manchurian Campaign as Kwantung Army was ready to use it in the case of better situation in the frontline or if the Japanese more exactly knew where and when the Soviets will advance. You have to agree that Kwantung Army with large amount of biological weapon and Kwantung Army withouth it are completely different things....

    To the point, if the Japanese stopped Soviet Troops in Manchuria in 1945 and begsn biological war against USSR the Japanese could begin biological war against Western coast of USA also, they had possibility to do it. The Soviets who took part in Manchurian Campaign had saved US from Jaanese Biological threat.
    Last edited by Andrey; 24 Nov 05, 01:00.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    You used too diffucult phrase and I am afraid that I can understand it incorrectly. Please, rewrite it by other word.
    Sorry Andrey, I forget English is not a native language for you

    To re-phrase:

    My point is that we are discussing the Manchurian Campaign of 1945 specifically. If various (it doesn't need to be all and I never claimed it was all) Soviet writers do not feel that the biological weapons are of any significance to it then there should not be any surprise that 'Western' historians do not choose to mention it. By way of a comparison the British tested Anthrax bombs on a remote Scottish island in 1940 but I've yet to see it mentioned in a book about the Battle of Britain. Incidentally, if you track down the original Russian language version of that issue of the Military History Journal there is a short article about the 'Bourgeois Falsification of War With Japan' which you may find interesting.

    If we're broadening the debate to the Japanese possession of 'WMDs' then that's another matter entirely. However, it is pretty well documented over here - I have seen television programmes about it and read articles that refer to it.

    http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/731rev.htm has some interesting points to make.

    http://www.ww2pacific.com/unit731.html offers a brief overview of Unit 731's activities as well as providing several links to other sites.

    Obviously Andrey these will provide you with nothing new but for anyone else they offer a reasonable introduction to the subject.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    Andrey please. Your original point about Japanese biological weapons referred specifically to the Manchurian campaign and the fact that 'Western' authors did not mention the Japanese having them in their histories of said campaign. My post refers specifically to that, not whether they had them, whether they planned to use them or the activities of 'Unit 731'. All of these are well documented in various histories which are easily available over here.
    You used too diffucult phrase and I am afraid that I can understand it incorrectly. Please, rewrite it by other word.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Andrey please. Your original point about Japanese biological weapons referred specifically to the Manchurian campaign and the fact that 'Western' authors did not mention the Japanese having them in their histories of said campaign. My post refers specifically to that, not whether they had them, whether they planned to use them or the activities of 'Unit 731'. All of these are well documented in various histories which are easily available over here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Here is the memoir (in Russian) of a former member of unit 731, Akiyama Hiroshi, who was judged in Habarovsk Trial of 1949
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/other/akiyama_h/index.html

    He recalls about hs service in unit 731 and describes how the captured members of the unit were treated in USSR.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    I agree in that such things are possible although highly improbable. Captured men are known to be susceptible to say all sorts of things if they think it will please their captors, even if they have been treated well (as I'm sure these men were ).
    You again speak about it like it was not proved fact. The activity of unit 731 and other such units is known enough (at least for Russians).

    Answer, did you read Morimura's book? Did you hear about Habarovsk Trial?
    Did you read anything about Japanese biological weapon?

    Slightly more generally, if Soviet writers don't mention such things as the Japanese potential for using chemical and/or biological weapons then you can understand why British, American, French etc. writers wouldn't mention it either.
    I again repeat you that a lot of Russian authors mention it, I gave a few examples earlier.

    Abd there are a few Japanese works including memoirs of former members of unit 731.

    You give one source that is unknown for me and show it like all Russian/Soviet sources don't mention it. It is incorrect.

    It's obscure and had no impact on the Manchurian campaign itself.
    The question was about the potential of Japanese Armed Forces in Manchuria. The biological WMD that the Japanese had was a very powerful weapon, it was the same like to have a few atomic bombs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    And sometimes it is very difficult to prove that an epidemic was not a natural but began in the result of the actions of an opposing side. It can be considered one more natural epidemic.

    For example, I read that there were a few large epidemics in the Mongolian cattle in 1939. In the most cases it was the result of the Japanese actions - the Japanese sent infected animals in Mongolia and infected the water supplies. But it was very difficult to prove it in 1939. Only in 1945 a few Japanese captured men said that it was the result of Japanese actions.
    I agree in that such things are possible although highly improbable. Captured men are known to be susceptible to say all sorts of things if they think it will please their captors, even if they have been treated well (as I'm sure these men were ).

    Slightly more generally, if Soviet writers don't mention such things as the Japanese potential for using chemical and/or biological weapons then you can understand why British, American, French etc. writers wouldn't mention it either. It's obscure and had no impact on the Manchurian campaign itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Mistake

    Originally posted by Andrey
    It looks like Morimura was father of US biological weapon like Verner Von Brown, the fasther of German V-2 missiles, was the father of US space rockets.
    It was my misprint.

    The correct version is:
    It looks like Colonel Isii, the chief of Japanese unit 731, was the father of US biological weapon like Verner Von Brown, the father of German V-2 missiles, was the father of US space rockets.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrey
    The Japanese didn't use their biological weapon; they could use it if the Soviets advanced not so fast.

    I don't know why the Soviet author you mentioned didn't say anything about biological weapon. May be, he didn't write about it as the Japanese didn't use it.
    May be, he didn't know about it when he wrote it.

    If you want you can study the info about Habarovsk Trial in 1947 (?) where former members, been captured by the Soviets, were judged. In those materials there are a lot of data how the Japanese prepared biological war against USSR.

    But the simpliest way is to rerad Morimura's book.

    Here it is in Russian:
    http://militera.lib.ru/research/morimura/index.html

    To the point, Morimura speaks that US intelligence used the experience of Japanese unit 731 for the making of US biological weapon. The US intelligence captured Colonel Isii. Colonel Isii was not punished as military criminal, he gave his knowledge to the Americans. Morimura spoke with the interpreteur who took part in the interrogations of Colonel Isii.

    Morimura writes that the Americans used biological weapon in Korean war against Northern Korea. The construction of US biological bombs was very similar the the Japanese ones of 1945. And he writes that Isii and a few other Japanese experts in biological weapon were in Southern Korea in that time and continued their experiments on captured Chinese voluinteers.

    It looks like Morimura was father of US biological weapon like Verner Von Brown, the fasther of German V-2 missiles, was the father of US space rockets.

    No one member of Japanese unit 731 was punished by Western Allies as military criminal. Only the members who were captured by USSR were punished. Practically all of them had survived in a Soviet camps (they lived in one special camp) and returned in Japan later.

    May be, it explains why the Americans were not let to read Morimura's book...
    Agree, the Soviet's lightning campaign pre-empted a lot of Japanese planning.

    Tret'yak's name was on the article because of his position. I do not believe he wrote the article, and from his background, I do not believe he participated in the campaign. His name was familiar to me, so I looked up his background. Maybe he is a closet military historian?

    Thanks for the book reference and website.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Full Monty
    And it was a Soviet publication which can be obtained from

    http://www.redarmystudies.net/smhj/1985/1985_08.pdf
    And sometimes it is very difficult to prove that an epidemic was not a natural but began in the result of the actions of an opposing side. It can be considered one more natural epidemic.

    For example, I read that there were a few large epidemics in the Mongolian cattle in 1939. In the most cases it was the result of the Japanese actions - the Japanese sent infected animals in Mongolia and infected the water supplies. But it was very difficult to prove it in 1939. Only in 1945 a few Japanese captured men said that it was the result of Japanese actions.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Topics

Collapse

  • asterix
    New York AG to sue the NRA
    by asterix
    New York Attorney General Letitia James launches lawsuit against the National Rifle Association alleging financial discrepancies:

    https...
    Today, 05:46
  • casanova
    Emanuel Macron
    by casanova
    The French president Emmanuel Macron visited Beirut, Libanon. He watched the devastation in the city, caused by the Amoniumnitrat explosion....
    Today, 01:27
  • casanova
    Beirut
    by casanova
    A awful, dedoerate situation for the population in Beirut, Libanon. A Amoniumnitrat-explosion was the cause of the catastrophe....
    Yesterday, 23:35
Working...
X