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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pruitt
    Andrey,

    I am troubled by the things you wrote. This Russian Journalist went and spoke to a number of Soviet Army veterans, as you said. Did he write how many were Estonian and how many were Russian? Here in the US, we are used to seeing names of the people interviewed in news stories. That way what they say can be checked and verified. If this jounalist went to only Russian Veterans, it might well slant his story some. Often times when we see that a souce of news is not named, we discount whatever is said.
    There were names of each veteran with whom the journalist spoke. I don't remember their names. Mainly they were Russians. But one of them was a famous Arnold Meri, an Estonian, a Hero of Soviet Union.

    And I remember that one veteran had name Frants Kadysh, it is not a Russian name.

    All the hostile events against Red Army veterans are against Red Arny veterans commonly and not only against the Red Army veterans of Russia natioanality.

    Also, he could have looked into the story about the Veteran being beat to death. It might not have anything to do with him being a Veteran and may have even been Hooligans trying to hurt an old person.
    The journalist is not an investigator. It were words of the veteran and the veteran supposed that his friend was killed because he went out in a street with his awards. May be, the veteran is wrong, I only repeated his real words which Russian TV showed.

    Young people like to beat on old people all over the world.
    Your words are very strange...

    Where I live went through a similar thing many years after the American Civil War. A large number of Union veterans liked Louisiana and came back and settled here. They were well aware who won the Civil War and liked to remind the Confederate Veterans LOUDLY and OFTEN about it. After The Army pulled its troops out of the Southern States, Southerners got back control of their state governments. These Union Veterans were not the least bit happy and did many of the same things you wrote about. There were lots of reporters from the Northern States sent down here to "report" the "news" that Union Veterans were being treated badly. They never cared about Southern Veterans of the Union Army.
    I am not expert in that case.

    I suppose that if a 80-years veteran who fought against Nazies in WWII and whose full dress is completely covered by combat awards speaks about bad things with tears in his eyes so it is not OK. And when a former SS-man who fought against Soviet troops in Kharkov writes memoirs and is in favour, when he doesn't cover that he was a SS-man and fought together with the Germans, and when he speaks about it with pride so it is not OK.



    If Russian Veterans of the Great Patriotic War are being treated badly in Estonia and the Baltic States and can't live on their pensions, would it be cheaper and easier to live in Russia?
    It is their home, they lived in the Baltic States practically all their lives. Many of them have no anything outside their homes in the Baltic States. It is the same to say for an American Irishman: "Go out in your Ireland."

    And the question is noy only about the Russians, it is about Red Army veterans commonly.

    In Latvia the Russians are 45% (I don't remember the exact digit) of the population. In Estonia and Lithounia the amount of the Russians is high also. Do you mean to make the deportation of the Russian nationality population of the Baltic States in Russia? What is the difference between your offer and Stalin's deportations of WWII-time?
    Last edited by Andrey; 10 May 05, 06:24.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Andrey
      I saw an interview of a Russian FSB officer who specializes in military criminals. He said an amazed story. FSB got a letter from a Baltic State (I don’t remember exactly from what country). A former member of Waffen SS who was considered a military criminal in Russia wrote a letter in Russian FSB. He asked Russian FSB to write an official letter in his country and to confirm that according Russian FSB data he really served in Waffen SS and is considered a military criminal in Russia. He wrote that he lost all his papers of WWII time and if FSB writes the letter he will get very good pension as a hero of struggle for independence.

      The Russian FSB officer was amazed by such cheek…
      Today Russian TV showed another report about military criminals, that report was based on data from the archieves of Russian FSB.

      That SS-man was Pupart who was mentioned in the initial article!!!

      He wrote letter in Russian FSB that he has only papers that he was in Waffen SS from 1943. He asked to send him papers that he served in a police security battalion from 1941!!!

      Comment


      • #33
        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        >The journalist asked one of the veterans what will happen if they will put on their awards in the spite of the fact that it is forbidden.

        >The veteran answered: “They can take off the awards”. Then he was silenced for a few moments and suddenly added “or to beat until the death. One my friend went in a street with his awards and they beat him till his death”.


        Pp(est):

        Odd, I just passed through a group of Red Army uniforms in full uniform and brandishing all their medals. While obvioulsy looking at them and thinking about all their victims hurts, I am not going to deny old men a chance to reminiscent old times so I just quickly moved on just like everybody else. I am quite sure I could do the same in Vilna or Riga.
        The Red Army veteran didn't say about what country he spoke. May be, it is about Latvia only.

        Or, may be, those veterans put on their awards in the Great Anniversary in the spite of the restriction and they risk to be punished.

        I have never heard of anybody beating any veteran for being a veteran. If somebody were beaten to death it would be major news. Right now the major news is that somebody desecrated the German cemetary near Narva and others - probably in retribution - covered the monument for conquest of Tallinn by the Red Army in red paint - I doubt things get more wilder than this.
        If you didn't hear about it doesn't mean that it did not occur. I believe more to a veteran than to you. If his friend was killed so it would be considered by local rules as usual crime which is not related to his awards.

        This is just the usual garbage that can be expected from Andrey.
        I repeated exactly what a veteran said to all Russia.

        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        >Another Red Army veteran spoke: “Our pension is too little. One our veteran got his pension and he had a choice: to pay a rent or to buy food. If he bought food so they would throw off him from his flat. The veteran chose to pay a rent. A few days later neighbors felt strange smell and call a police. A policeman broke the door of veteran’s flat and found the veteran. The veteran paid rent, took his full dress with a lot of combat awards from the wardrobe, put on his full dress, sat in a chair and died there.”


        Pp(est):

        Umm, it is now our fault that Russia doesn't pay more pension to its war veterans?
        Why don't the Baltic States demand from the Germans to pay pensions for Estonian Waffen SS units which were pro-German units? Why do the Baltic States pay good pensions to Waffen SS veterans instead of the Germans?

        To whom did soldiers of Estonian Waffen SS swear allegiance? To Hitler?

        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        >Another veteran showed to the journalist the clear place in his city where there was only asphalt. He said: “There is a monument to Soviet soldiers behind of you and an “eternal fire” [a star with a fire where gas is firing constantly in the memory of the soldiers] was here. They broke “eternal fire” and covered this place by asphalt. Look on the monument. They took off the concrete names of the units from the monument.”


        Pp(est):
        Apparently this wasn't in Tallinn then. It is a good idea though. The monuments for causing unimaginable suffering to the Estonian people shouldn't be in the center of Tallinn as it is now. It should be moved to a location where people who were hurt wouldn't have to be reminded of it daily and where the Red Army veterans could still gather and reminiscent old times and tell tall tales to journalists.
        To build monuments to Waffen SS and cemeteries of Waffen SS is considered OK in the Baltic States, it is considered that no one will suffer from this. But to remove monuments to the Red Army veterans is considered OK because a few people "suffer" from it.

        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        The Latvian rules called in new schoolbook the concentration camp Salaspils as “educational-labor camp”.

        Pp(est):
        Actually it wasn't a schoolbook and it was called a concentration camp in the text. Whomever read the book apparently only read the illustration caption which stated the official name of the camp using "", as in we "joined" the USSR "voluntarily".
        Don't lie. Russian TV showed the Russian-language version of that schoolbook!!! Russian TV showed that page!!! I myself saw in the screen of my TV-set that inscription and there was no "" in the name of Salaspils. There was a picture of camp and the inscription воспитательно-трудовой лагерь Саласпилс (educational-labor camp Salaspils) below.



        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        >One of them (as I remember, his name was Arnt) showed with a lot of pride few photos and books to the journalist. There were SS men in the photos. He was one of those SS men. He told: “We fought against the Russians in the region of Kharkov. We repelled the Russian offensive there”. He told it with much pride. He fought in the Eastern Front as a soldier of the Separate Volunteer SS Battalion “Narva” to which he joined voluntarily when he was 16 years old. He was wounded 9 times. He is not pity that he fought for Nazi Germany, he wanted to revenge to the Russians. Arnt wrote a few books of memoirs and these books are very popular. Arnt showed his awards and it looks like nobody disturb him to carry his combat awards. Arnt is in favour in his country…

        Pp(est):
        Somethings a miss here. Narva was an Estonian unit so this can no longer be from Latvia. This mixing and matching of events in three very different countries to make everything seem just awful is a typical Soviet propaganda trick. I wonder what you would say, if I were to make conclusions on what was going on in Russia by taking some examples from Belarus, others from Tajikistan.
        Don't play the fool. I didn't write that the SS Battalion "Narva" was a Latvian unit.

        Arnold (as I suspect his name is) has equal right to carry his combat awards around just like any Red Army veteran has, why shouldn't he have such a right? I've explained it plenty of times, why from my perspective Arnold was fighting for our freedom and hence he would be received more favorably by most Estonians. You should note however that by far the majority do not care much about WWII and consider all this ancient history.
        Before current moment you spoke that Estonian Waffen SS units fought only in the territory of Estonia (before the Baltic States were liberated by the Red Army) and defended the country from Communists.

        Now you speak about the SS Battalion "Narva" which fought outside Estonia (in the time when Estonia still was occupied by the Germans (the combats in Kharkov were in 1942-43)) like the SS units "Viking", "Vallonia" and other non-German SS units.

        >Quote:
        >Originally Posted by Andrey
        >So if to speak about Arnt it is difficult to speak that he was only a freedom fighter and fought only in the territory of his native country against advancing Communists.

        >The SS Battalion “Narva” operated in Russia (at least in Kharkov region) which is far from Baltic States. If to suppose that it was unit of the “freedom fighters” who fought against the Communists so all other volunteers’ national non-German SS units (“Viking”, “Vallonia” and so on) also can be considered “fighters against Communism” only. I don’t see a difference between Arnt and other non-German SS-men operated in the Eastern Front.


        Pp(est):
        Well, Arnold had few choices. He could flee to the forests and wait for the war to end and pick no sides or he could volunteer or let himself be drafted to fight the Red Army to ensure that the horrors of the Soviet occupation wouldn't happen again.

        If he chose to fight - he might have had a choice of trying to flee to Finland depending on where he lived and whom he knew - most didn't have this choice. If he couldn't go to Finland he could only choose to wait until drafted or he could volunteer. Initially Germans only accepted volunteers to Police Battalions and Ost Battalions - the men generally had know idea into which they would be going. Later on some men had a choice to volunteer for the SS, which political angle was unpopular, but this was balanced by the promise of superior training and weaponry. Apparently Arnold chose to fight the Soviets and wanted to do this with the best training and weaponry available. Arnold could not choose where his unit was sent afterwards. Obviously though the Germans knew the motivation of our guys and hence in the retreat all Estonian units were concentrated in the defence of Estonia, in which units where for example Arnold served fought very well, but still lost.

        BTW Finns fighting in Viking did have quite similar sentiments to Estonians. They hated the Hitler stuff, but wanted to fight the Soviets with best equipment and training available. The attitude in Finland towards its Viking veterans is pretty much the same as our attitude toward our Viking veterans.
        It shows enough your position. It looks like you suppose that ALL Waffen SS were "fighters against Communists", "fighters against Red Threat to Europe".

        Acording your explanation everyone HAD RIGHT to join any Waffen SS unit and you justify them.
        Last edited by Andrey; 10 May 05, 06:09.

        Comment


        • #34
          Here is my translation of an article about Arnold Meri.

          “Arnold Meri is a cousin of Lennart Meri, the President of Estonia, who let for the Estonian veterans of 20th SS Division to march on the streets of Tallinn. And the cousins do not consort with each other. Politics is the reason of it.

          The Estonian official rules speak now: “The WWII was not our war”. They speak that two tyrant – Hitler and Stalin – allegedly mobilized defenseless citizens of the small republic in their troops and it was not the choice of Estonians who fought in other sides. And the story, told by Arnold Meri, is unfavorable to them because it breaks many modern Estonian stereotypes about those events. Arnold Meri, the deputy of the Politruk (least rank of a commissar) of 415th Separate Signal Battalion of the 22nd Estonian Rifle Corps, became a Hero of Soviet Union in August, 15th of 1941. It became in the days of common retreat which often looked like taking a flight when the amount of “shooting” verdicts of military tribunals exceeded many times the amount of awarding orders.

          Arnold Meri, a young soldier, served in Estonian national Army as a signaller in 1940 when Soviet troops came in Estonia. Nobody ordered to Meri and his comrades-soldiers to shoot in those who are called “occupants” in Tallinn now. But, of course, many of them were afraid of changef for the worse. And many soldiers went to get an advice to Private Meri and not to their officers. It was because Meri before 1938 lived with his parents in Serbia and got an education in a gymnasia where the most part of students were Russians, children of the “White” officers who fought in the Russian Civil War and then emigrated in Yugoslavia after the victory of the Bolshevicks. So many of Meri’s friends of the childhood were Russians who often were sad about Russia and spoke to Meri the stories about their far motherland. So when Estonian soldiers-colleagues of Meri saw Soviet soldiers in the narrow streets of Tallinn they went to Meri with questions: “What the people those Russians? What will be now?”

          Meri couldn’t speak anything horrific about the Russians from Soviet Union to his alarmed colleagues. And there were no changes, at least nearly their barracks. Really once they were informed that the Estonian army doesn’t exist now and all the, all the battalion, are soldiers and officers of the Red Army. What called before as the Armed Forces of the Republic with its full complement became the 22nd Territorial Rifle Corps of RKKA. Even their uniform stayed the same; they only must to sew on Soviet buttonholes with new ranks. Indeed, a few battalion officers who were not attested were set at home. But the most part of the officers remained in the ranks. And Arnold Meri who was considered a main specialist about “the Russians” got higher rank – he became the deputy of the politruk.

          After the start of the war Meri got an order to lead a group of stragglers. Meri and his men joined to his battalion only in the railroad station Dno. It turned out that the battalion didn’t take part in combats yet and saved its all staff. Arnold Meri speaks now, that it is the best answer to the people who speaks now that the Estonians in the 22nd Estonian Rifle Corps didn’t want to fight against the Germans. It was very easy for a soldier to desert in that time. Meri speaks, that the Soviet rule existed only along the roads in the Baltic in that time. It was possible only to go 20 meters to nearest bushes that were along a road and nobody could find a deserter in the region where the Germans would come a few days later. But the battalion which contained 300 men practically had no deserters. The list of MIAs was placed on one paper of a school writing-book and it was practically every day when that list decreased when stragglers arrived in the battalion.

          The feat of Meri was the following – the Germans made a sudden breakthrough and approached to the rears of corps including the staff of the corps. A large panic began but Meri didn’t lose his head. Firstly he supposed that it was a mistake, that the Soviet troops attacked the Estonians, who had their uniform of non-Soviet style, and that the command of the corps needs his help as the most part of the officers of the corps didn’t know Russian language. Then he heard German speeches and decided that it was little group of German paratroopers. He gathered a group of soldiers and organized defense along the edge of a forest. His group temporally stopped the German attack for a little time which was enough for reinforcement arrived and the Germans retreated. The actions of Meri let to stop the German attack and to save the rears and staff of the corps from the destruction. During the combat Arnold Meri got four wounds from mortar shells and was in a hospital up to 1942. Then he returned in the Estonian Corps and fought up to 1945. He took part in the liberation of Estonia.”

          Yesterday Russian TV showed that Arnold Meri and a few other veterans from the Baltic States took part in the yesterday's parade of May, 9th in Moscow. Russian TV said that president Putin presented to Arnold Meri a nominal watch of the president of Russia.

          The rules of Estonia want to judge Arnold Meri as an "accomplice
          of occupants"...
          Last edited by Andrey; 10 May 05, 06:18.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Nico
            I understand that Estonia was beetween to evils,
            It is pp(est)'s opinion about "two equal evils".

            In 1940 peoples from the Baltic States didn't resist against the Soviets. Yes, later some people fought against the Soviets but some part of them was drafted and no one is able to say now what they really thought in 1943-45 about the Soviet rules. No one is able to say now what part of the population of the Baltic States disliked the Soviets in the time of USSR. There were no mass unrests there after Stalin's time excluding the end of 80th.

            And pp(est) lifts the talking in the other way. He tries to lift talking in the talking about Stalin's repressions, "occupation" and so on....

            It is a talking about concrete proofs and digits about Estonian "freedom fighters" who were proved military criminals and who killed at least dozens thousands (may be, a few hundreds thousands) civilians in Russian Pskov region.

            Do not give way to pp(est)'s provocations.
            Last edited by Andrey; 10 May 05, 06:38.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Andrey
              There were names of each veteran with whom the journalist spoke. I don't remember their names. Mainly they were Russians. But one of them was a famous Arnold Meri, an Estonian, a Hero of Soviet Union.

              All the hostile events against Red Army veterans are against Red Arny veterans commonly and not only against the Red Army veterans of Russia natioanality.
              http://www.postimees.ee/100505/esile...58_foto.php#33, here's a photo of Russians celebrating yesterday in the center of Tallinn. I don't see any harassment nor anybody beating up anybody. I went passed this place yesterday and there were quite a few veterans brandishing more metal than you'll

              As regards Estonian red army veterans I think Voldemar Enno probably represented the feelings of most of them. In his reply to Putin's letter of congratulations - he wrote that for him and Estonian people the end of World War II does not mean the same as for the Russian people. "In order for You to understands our feelings You should imagine a situation where the end of the war would have resulted in the occupation of Russia by foreign troops." As the war ended for Estonia with occupation, terror, deportations and prison camps, Enno felt there is no reason to celebrate. In stead he promised to hoist a mourning flag on 9.May to commemorate all the victims of terror.

              http://www.sloleht.ee/index.aspx?id=173804

              Most red army veterans I know stayed at home yesterday and most of them have thrown all their medals to garbage bin or sold them to collectors long ago.

              Arnold Meri was in Moscow yesterday and he still is a suspected war criminal.

              Originally posted by Andrey
              And I remember that one veteran had name Frants Kadysh, it is not a Russian name.
              It obviously isn't an Estonian name either.

              Originally posted by Andrey
              The journalist is not an investigator. It were words of the veteran and the veteran supposed that his friend was killed because he went out in a street with his awards. May be, the veteran is wrong, I only repeated his real words which Russian TV showed.
              I don't doubt this was what the Russian tv showed. It is of course poor journalistic ethics to air such sensationalistic claims without any research, but I think everybody can make their own conclusions why this is done.

              Originally posted by Andrey
              I suppose that if a 80-years veteran who fought against Nazies in WWII and whose full dress is completely covered by combat awards speaks about bad things with tears in his eyes so it is not OK. And when a former SS-man who fought against Soviet troops in Kharkov writes memoirs and is in favour, when he doesn't cover that he was a SS-man and fought together with the Germans, and when he speaks about it with pride so it is not OK.
              Ah, here's the problem in perspective. When we look at the first veteran we cannot help but think whether he was the one who shoved auntie Lilli, Anne and Mahta into the cattle car where they died or was he the one that raped and killed auntie Alma. When we look at the second soldier we think was he the one who bought the time that allowed uncle Robert and his family to escape. I completely understand that this is particular to us due to the events that happened here, so I am not expecting others to view these veterans the same. I also understand that most probably the first veteran did nothing wrong and I will not grudge him a day in sunshine remembering old times - but you cannot ask me to ever start liking it.

              Note that Red Army veterans have written considerably more memoirs in Estonia (despite them being a clear minority) than German Army veterans and for 50 years the German army veterans officially practically did not exist.


              Originally posted by Andrey
              It is their home, they lived in the Baltic States practically all their lives. Many of them have no anything outside their homes in the Baltic States. It is the same to say for an American Irishman: "Go out in your Ireland."
              Not exactly. In reality most Russians here have been here since the 70s and 80s. Their situation is quite comparable to for example Turks in Germany.


              Originally posted by Andrey
              Do you mean to make the deportation of the Russian nationality population of the Baltic States in Russia? What is the difference between your offer and Stalin's deportations of WWII-time?
              Actually US government and various private funds have been for years assisting Russians who want to return to their motherland with apartments, money and jobs. Mostly it has been concentrating on the former military personnel whom the Soviets brought here in the late 80s and just let go. Also Putin has made several calls for Russians to return and I believe the Russian embassy has some sort of program going to facilitate moving back. However there have been few takers for these programs. Most local Russians, despite all the talk, realise quite well that their situation here is far better than it would be in Russia. After all Estonia is giving donations to Russia and not vice versa.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Andrey
                Or, may be, those veterans put on their awards in the Great Anniversary in the spite of the restriction and they risk to be punished.
                Well nobody has ever been punished and our country is filled with Red Army monuments and you are bound to see plenty of veterans with their medals every time Russia has some kind of celebration. I doubt the situation is differnet in Latvia or Lithuania.

                Originally posted by Andrey
                If you didn't hear about it doesn't mean that it did not occur. I believe more to a veteran than to you. If his friend was killed so it would be considered by local rules as usual crime which is not related to his awards.
                We don't have quite as high crime rates as you do. A murder is a serious thing here and if there is any chance the murder was a hate crime it would be in all the news. What's more given that Russian media is very interested in finding out anything that shows us in bad light - it would be in all your news as well.

                The latest known hate crimes occurred in Paldiski a couple of years ago when a couple of Estonians were beaten up by Russian youth gang and some Estonian youths promised to retaliate but were dispersed. Before that a similar even occurred in Tallinn.

                Originally posted by Andrey
                Why don't the Baltic States demand from the Germans to pay pensions for Estonian Waffen SS units which were pro-German units? Why do the Baltic States pay good pensions to Waffen SS veterans instead of the Germans?
                Well, the German army veterans get exactly the same pension as the Red Army veterans. Russia pays the Red Army veterans some extra. The Finns pay quite considerable extra pensions to veterans who fought in their ranks (and were later transferred to Waffen-SS). Also Finns pay for their rehabilitation center visits, etc. pretty much on the same grounds as they do to all Finnish veterans. To my knowledge the Germans aren't paying anything and thus it seems the most common type of Estonian veteran receives the least. Whether out of solidarity or out of shame most Red Army veterans I know have not been picking up the Russian pension though (TBH I am not sure if Estonians are even eligible for it).

                Originally posted by Andrey
                To whom did soldiers of Estonian Waffen SS swear allegiance? To Hitler?
                Some did, but most didn't. Most didn't swear any allegiance and others swore allegiance to Finland or used the old Estonian army text, i.e. to Estonia.


                Originally posted by Andrey
                To build monuments to Waffen SS and cemeteries of Waffen SS is considered OK in the Baltic States, it is considered that no one will suffer from this. But to remove monuments to the Red Army veterans is considered OK because a few people "suffer" from it.
                Actually no monuments to Waffen SS have been built (at least in Estonia). In Lihula a private movement erected a monument to all Estonians who fought and fell in German ranks, but because the monument depicted a waffen SS soldier it was promptly removed by police - who for the first time in Estonian history had to use tear gas and police against the protesting local people. This event (using tear gas and dogs) was a major catalyst of bringing down our previous government.

                BTW the monument in Lihula was opposite a similar monument for Red Army fallen which remains in its place.

                There will be a monument to all Estonians who fell in WWII in Tallinn soon. It will have one plaque which contains the names of all units in which Estonians have fought and died. It will include the SS formations.

                Originally posted by Andrey
                Don't lie. Russian TV showed the Russian-language version of that schoolbook!!! Russian TV showed that page!!! I myself saw in the screen of my TV-set that inscription and there was no "" in the name of Salaspils. There was a picture of camp and the inscription воспитательно-трудовой лагерь Саласпилс (educational-labor camp Salaspils) below.
                Well I've not seen the Russian version but I have seen the Latvian version. The problem is that the authors of the book expected people to read the text not only inscriptions under the pictures. If you had read the text you would have noted the clear indication that this was a concentration camp and that it was only the Germans which called it the "educational-labor camp".

                Oh and it still isn't a schoolbook. It is quite an ordinary Latvian history book.


                Originally posted by Andrey
                Before current moment you spoke that Estonian Waffen SS units fought only in the territory of Estonia (before the Baltic States were liberated by the Red Army) and defended the country from Communists.
                I've never claimed that Estonian Waffen SS units fought only in the territory of Estonia, although this is where their most famous battles were fought. Before the retreat to Estonia pretty much any spot in the eastern front was essential for defending our country from a new "liberation".

                Our soldiers are in Iraq right now defending our country.

                Originally posted by Andrey
                It shows enough your position. It looks like you suppose that ALL Waffen SS were "fighters against Communists", "fighters against Red Threat to Europe".

                Acording your explanation everyone HAD RIGHT to join any Waffen SS unit and you justify them.
                No, I didn't speak about or for anybody else. I've explained why Estonians joined or were transferred to SS. I've also explained why for Estonians it was considered defending our country.

                Like I've said many times. We didn't want this war. We had no part in initiating this war nor did we have any part in deciding on how this war was fought. We didn't even have any part in deciding how this war ended. All we could do was try to avoid a new "liberation" with the possibilities available or do nothing. Most of my countrymen chose to try and paid dearly for it (but they would have paid dearly anyway).

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  It is pp(est)'s opinion about "two equal evils".

                  In 1940 peoples from the Baltic States didn't resist against the Soviets. Yes, later some people fought against the Soviets but some part of them was drafted and no one is able to say now what they really thought in 1943-45 about the Soviet rules.
                  Many of these people are alive. We can know what they thought just by asking them. We can know what they thought by reading their contemporary letters and diaries (despite it being strictly forbidden, keeping a diary was considered a very cool thing by young soldiers at the time).

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  No one is able to say now what part of the population of the Baltic States disliked the Soviets in the time of USSR. There were no mass unrests there after Stalin's time excluding the end of 80th.
                  So all this resentment against Soviet occupation just sprang out from thin air, out of nothing. Suddenly then Gorby showed the first sign of weakness a full quarter of Estonians were on the streets. Did this all happen on a whim?

                  You speak as though this was ancient history and this couldn't be checked. People who lived through it are alive today. In Estonia a new book was published only recently which compiled the occupation era memories of thousands of Estonians collected under various topics. Reading it, it is remarkable how similar views people held and how similar experiences people had even though everything was secret and you could speak of your real thoughts and feelings basically only to a few family members and the closest friends.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  It is a talking about concrete proofs and digits about Estonian "freedom fighters" who were proved military criminals and who killed at least dozens thousands (may be, a few hundreds thousands) civilians in Russian Pskov region.
                  So we should take KGB figures at face value, eh? This Pupart guy must have been real busy man to have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians all with his couple of friends.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    The rules of Estonia want to judge Arnold Meri as an "accomplice
                    of occupants"...
                    There is no such crime. Arnold Meri is suspected of participating in the deportations and murders of several hundred families in Hiiumaa. Once the prosecution has completed its investigation he will be brought to a trial. He will be afforded all due process.

                    As to the Pupart thing, I find it most curious. I would tend to scoff it off as just another fabrication, but FSB guys cannot be this imaginitive so there probably is something there. The pension stuff is just rubbish - there are no special pensions for being part of Police Battalion. Maybe he has had an argument with some other veteran about in which units he served and wanted to get documents to prove something? He asked from the wrong place though since nobody is likely to believe a document coming from FSB.

                    There is absolutely nothing about him in Estonian media.
                    Last edited by pp(est); 10 May 05, 08:18.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Andrey,

                      In the United States there are all kinds of reporters. They are supposed to follow a code of ethics. One of these ethics is to check out a story and verify it. If they don't do this and it is printed, and found to be libelous, they can be sued. Some very prominent TV newspeople in the US were fired for not checking stories out carefully.

                      I was referring to the habit of many young people in many cultures to be a hooligan. A hooligan likes to get into fights, beat people and take money from them. They like to fight older people because they can't always defend themselves.

                      I brought up the men that fought for the Union in the American Civil War because it sounded similar to what you are writing. The parish (county) courthouse here has a statue commemorating the Confederate Veterans of the Civil War. This could be seen as offensive to Black residents here and the descendants of the many Union veterans from Louisiana that live here now. If these people were smart, they would pitch in and build a statue commemorating the Union Veterans of the Civil War and make it at least a foot taller than the Confederate one!

                      Here in Louisiana, the descendants of the Confederate and Union Veterans now get along. I have ancestors that fought for both sides. In Estonia and the other Baltic places this is possible too, but it will take time!

                      Remember I am not saying any one group should do anything. I don't like Nazis any more than you do. I have done a bit of reading and am always glad to hear more than one side of an issue.

                      In the cases of Russian Veterans that have lived in the Baltic countries for many years, I see no reason why they can't stay there. I also believe they should not expect the same way of life they would in Russia. I don't think the Russian Veterans living in Russia are doing much better than the ones in Estonia. Have you ever seen a TV report on Russian Veterans in Russia? Is it considered newsworthy? One has to be careful about one sees on TV.

                      Here in my town, years ago, a homosexual man was accused by some boys of making advances at them. He lives next door to my parents house. Across the street from his house is an elementary school for children. The local TV station sent out a TV reporter to interview his neighbors. They caught my Mom and Dad working in their yard. That reporter talked to my Mom for over 30 minutes and tried to get her to say something bad about the neighbor. She did not do it. They tried the same thing to my Dad. He started out by saying "It was a shame for something like this to happen to the man." All they showed on TV was my Dad saying "It was a shame...". To this day I don't know if the guy did proposition the boys or if the boys were trying to blackmail him. I do know the TV did not report more than what they wanted to show.

                      In America we expect people to celebrate their ethnic culture, but to become "Americans". You would expect the same thing in Russia. Why not extend the same courtesy to Estonia? Hey, some Irish men do go back to Ireland if they don't like it here!

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pruitt
                        Andrey,

                        In the United States there are all kinds of reporters. They are supposed to follow a code of ethics. One of these ethics is to check out a story and verify it. If they don't do this and it is printed, and found to be libelous, they can be sued. Some very prominent TV newspeople in the US were fired for not checking stories out carefully.

                        I was referring to the habit of many young people in many cultures to be a hooligan. A hooligan likes to get into fights, beat people and take money from them. They like to fight older people because they can't always defend themselves.
                        Russian TV reporters of main TV channels are professionals and they are better than an average US reporter. They know how to do their job.

                        I brought up the men that fought for the Union in the American Civil War because it sounded similar to what you are writing. The parish (county) courthouse here has a statue commemorating the Confederate Veterans of the Civil War. This could be seen as offensive to Black residents here and the descendants of the many Union veterans from Louisiana that live here now. If these people were smart, they would pitch in and build a statue commemorating the Union Veterans of the Civil War and make it at least a foot taller than the Confederate one!

                        Here in Louisiana, the descendants of the Confederate and Union Veterans now get along. I have ancestors that fought for both sides. In Estonia and the other Baltic places this is possible too, but it will take time!

                        Remember I am not saying any one group should do anything. I don't like Nazis any more than you do. I have done a bit of reading and am always glad to hear more than one side of an issue.
                        The Baltic States (especially Latvia) make policy of the favour of SS-men. Vets of both sides lived relatively well before a few last years when local rules began to make excessive honour to former SS-men and to make bad life to the Red Army vets who fought against Nazies.

                        And any normal person understands that it is not OK, that it is very dangerous to give honour to former SS-men who swore allegiance to Hitler.

                        The rules of the Baltic states are guilty in the current situation.

                        In the cases of Russian Veterans that have lived in the Baltic countries for many years, I see no reason why they can't stay there. I also believe they should not expect the same way of life they would in Russia. I don't think the Russian Veterans living in Russia are doing much better than the ones in Estonia. Have you ever seen a TV report on Russian Veterans in Russia? Is it considered newsworthy? One has to be careful about one sees on TV.
                        The Russian WWII vets live VERY well in Russia. My grandfather (a Soviet Pacific Ocean seaman in WWII) gets the pension which is more than my engineer's solary!!!

                        Here in my town, years ago, a homosexual man was accused by some boys of making advances at them. He lives next door to my parents house. Across the street from his house is an elementary school for children. The local TV station sent out a TV reporter to interview his neighbors. They caught my Mom and Dad working in their yard. That reporter talked to my Mom for over 30 minutes and tried to get her to say something bad about the neighbor. She did not do it. They tried the same thing to my Dad. He started out by saying "It was a shame for something like this to happen to the man." All they showed on TV was my Dad saying "It was a shame...". To this day I don't know if the guy did proposition the boys or if the boys were trying to blackmail him. I do know the TV did not report more than what they wanted to show.
                        I am not an idiot to believe completely all what TV speaks.

                        In America we expect people to celebrate their ethnic culture, but to become "Americans". You would expect the same thing in Russia. Why not extend the same courtesy to Estonia? Hey, some Irish men do go back to Ireland if they don't like it here!
                        I speak not about volunteer wish to return but when some guys speak: "Go out from here" or violate human rights of anyone and speak: "If you dislike it go out from this country".

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Andrey
                          Russian TV reporters of main TV channels are professionals and they are better than an average US reporter. They know how to do their job.
                          This is exactly the kind of thing that you would jump all over us for. You are saying that a Russian reporter is better than a US reporter. How do you know? I'm sure you have bad reporters just like we do over here. You probably also have very good reporters just like we do.

                          It sounds like you are saying that ALL US reporters aren't professionals and don't know how to do their job (I know you didn't actually say that but that is what you do with posts that we make).

                          If we said the opposite was true you would type a million word reply about how anti-Russian the entire Western world is.
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                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Psycho1943
                            This is exactly the kind of thing that you would jump all over us for. You are saying that a Russian reporter is better than a US reporter. How do you know? I'm sure you have bad reporters just like we do over here. You probably also have very good reporters just like we do.
                            The question was about the reporters of main Russian TV channels, they are the best Russian reporters and know enough how to do their job.

                            So I suppose that the best Russian reporters are better than average US reporters.

                            It sounds like you are saying that ALL US reporters aren't professionals and don't know how to do their job (I know you didn't actually say that but that is what you do with posts that we make).

                            If we said the opposite was true you would type a million word reply about how anti-Russian the entire Western world is.
                            Don't distort the meaning of my words.

                            If you have your own fantasies what I wanted to say it is only your fantasies in this concrete case.
                            Last edited by Andrey; 10 May 05, 23:08.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              The question was about the reporters of main Russian TV channels, they are the best Russian reporters and know enough how to do their job.

                              So I suppose that the best Russian reporters are better than average US reporters.

                              Don't distort the meaning of my words.

                              If you have your own fantasies what I wanted to say it is only your fantasies in this concrete case.
                              That is exactly my point. This is what you posted in your exact words:

                              "Originally Posted by Andrey
                              Russian TV reporters of main TV channels are professionals and they are better than an average US reporter. They know how to do their job."

                              Nowhere did you say the main TV reporters were the best. I guess we should have assumed that but you did not put it in words. Your last sentence is another point I am constantly trying to make to you. You should not assume what I am trying to say. There is no hidden meaning in my sentences. You always take any word in the worst way possible but you don't know if that was my meaning.

                              By the way, that is not a concrete case. How can you measure something like that? It is possible that an average reporter could still be better than your best reporter. It is very unlikely but still possible. Also an average reporter probably knows how to do their job but just isn't very good or doesn't care to do their best at the work. It doesn't mean they don't know how. You stated you suppose it is true which I would agree with but then you state it as if it is a fact.
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                Russian TV reporters of main TV channels are professionals and they are better than an average US reporter. They know how to do their job.
                                Given that media in Russia is government controlled, and in the reports you have referred to here, the errors and bias are clearly to be seen, it doesn't really matter how professional the Russian journalists are. They are just doing what Putin has ordered them to do.

                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                The Baltic States (especially Latvia) make policy of the favour of SS-men. Vets of both sides lived relatively well before a few last years when local rules began to make excessive honour to former SS-men and to make bad life to the Red Army vets who fought against Nazies.
                                Can you give one example of this favoritism? We cannot help the feelings of local people, which have always been the same, but there are absolutely now favoritism shown by government. There isn't a single Estonian law that would in any way give any extra benefit for having worn a German uniform. There isn't a single government sponsored monument or event to commemorate those men.

                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                The rules of the Baltic states are guilty in the current situation.
                                What rules?

                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                The Russian WWII vets live VERY well in Russia. My grandfather (a Soviet Pacific Ocean seaman in WWII) gets the pension which is more than my engineer's solary!!!
                                Since at least Russian red army vets here get the same benefits from Russia, they should be fine then? Previously you claimed that these benefits weren't enough for at least one veteran.

                                BTW while all old folk deserve pensions according to the law. I see no reason to pay anything extra to Red Army veterans who were instrumental part in killing off a fifth of our people.

                                Here's a link to the English translation of our state pension act:
                                http://www.legaltext.ee/text/en/X30001K3.htm

                                Here's a link to the translation of our Funded Pensions Act:
                                http://www.legaltext.ee/text/en/X80046.htm

                                Originally posted by Andrey
                                I speak not about volunteer wish to return but when some guys speak: "Go out from here" or violate human rights of anyone and speak: "If you dislike it go out from this country".
                                Nopbody has been forced to leave. Since Russia does not have a treaty with us obligating them to take back illegal immigrants we cannot even send those immigrants back who have come in the last 15 years.

                                Give one example of a human rights violation. For all this talk (in Russia) about how bad these people are treated it is amazing that practically nobody wants to go away. On the contrary it seems more Russians want to come here than go away. Also despite there being a possibility to take any human right violations cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg - there hasn't been a single case there regarding Russians and claimed Human Rights violations.


                                Pruitt is right. Russians here may celebrate their own culture, embrace it and develop it however they like. However we do expect them to also respect our laws and culture while they live here. The problem thus far has been that some find it difficult changing from overlords to ordinary citizens. Fortunately this does not seem to be a problem with most young people and I expect things to heal over time. Formal Russian apology for the occupation and help to sort out the war criminals would be appreciated though and would probably make the healing process that much quicker.
                                Last edited by pp(est); 11 May 05, 01:08.

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