Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Estonian "freedom fighters" did in Pskov region of Russia during WWII.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What Estonian "freedom fighters" did in Pskov region of Russia during WWII.

    Here is an article in the popular Russian newspaper “Komsomol’skaia Pravda” from April, 20th of 2005. (The name of newspaper stayed from the Soviet time when the newspaper was the most progressive youth newspaper so it was very popular.)



    “I shot off wounded…”

    …You see a photo of WWII time [see the first photo]. The men in this photo are not German soldiers. They are the men from the Estonian punitive platoon of Alexander Piigli (Александр Пиигли ) [see the second photo].

    [The photos are given by Pskov Department of FSB of Russia]

    Why do those guys decided to take Nazis’ side? In interrogations (Piigli and his subordinates were arrested a few tens years after WWII) they emphasized that they became betrayers “under the pressure of circumstances”.

    Artur Pupart (Артур Пупарт ) was afraid to be sent in Germany, Georg Veske (Георг Веске ) was afraid that his Komsomol [Soviet Youth Communist Organization] activity would be recalled… But it doesn’t explain why they chose a police battalion and not a economical or building unit.

    May be, the fact is that any Estonian who joined to a police battalion was promised by the Germans to get 3 hectares of a land in occupied territory [of USSR]?

    Here are 14 volumes of the criminal case of Piigli and his subordinates. The papers turned yellow… But the evidences of the members of punitive expeditions sound ominously even now.

    The platoon arrived in Pskov region [a Russian region in the border with the Baltic States] in the spring of 1942. They took part in their first action already a month later.

    “The people arrested for the help to partisans were kept in the concentration camp near the settlement of Polna” – Piigli spoke in an interrogation. – “Sometimes they were taken out for shooting of them.” The Estonian members of punitive actions were afraid of the partisans. So the arms of each prisoner were tied together and then they were taken out in a forest with trucks with awnings.

    From the evidences of Private Georg Veske: “Together with the other soldiers of our platoon under the command pf Piigli and escorted by a German officer and a few German soldiers we took out 10 prisoners from Polna… They were tied to pales which were dug into ground. We shot according a command of Piigli. One prisoner didn’t fall after our volley. Piigli approached to him and shot him a few times with a pistol.”

    Piigli himself confirmed the last fact: “I marshaled my soldiers for a shooting and gave all the necessary commands. And if it was necessary I shot off the prisoners who were wounded only.”

    ”For the zeal in the struggle against partisans”

    For one and a half years the members of punitive expeditions from the platoon of Piigli left enough traces in Pskov region. The investigation proved 5 facts of the shooting of civilians: June 1942 – 9 civilians, July 1942 – 10, August 1942 – 10, September 1942 – 25-30.

    The investigation proved the participation of Piigli’s soldiers in punitive raids amounting to the 37th Estonian Police Battalion. Only during the Operation “Swamp-Fever” the members of punitive expedition killed more 12,000 people. The group of Piigli was in good standing with the Germans. Piigli even was awarded ”for the zeal in the struggle against partisans” – he got an Iron Cross of the 2nd rank.

    In 1943 the German Command began to form a division SS from the Estonian police battalions. Piigli together with Artur Pupart and Verner Soer (Вернер Соэр ) passed on to Estonian Waffen-SS, sworn to be faithful to Nazi Germany and took part in combats against the Red Army. The “battle career” of Piigli finished in 1945 in Czechoslovakia in a POW camp where he hided with artificial name.

    Piigli's identity was established only in the end of 60th years. Piigli was arrested. Six other soldiers of Piigli’s platoon were judged together wit Piigli: Harri Iuksara (Харри Юксара ), Georg Veske, Eduard Lumiste (Эдуард Лумисте ), Arnold Tanga (Арнольд Танга ), Artur Pupart, and Verner Soer. Piigli and five the others were condemned to death

    But a lot of former members of punitive expeditions stay in Russian Federal and in International Search even now: there are no statute of limitation in Russia to members of punitive expeditions and betrayers.

    Sergey Ermolaev (“KP” - Pskov)

    OUR REFERENCE

    1,500,000 people lived in Pskov region in 1941. Less than 570,000 people were there 3 years later. During the German occupation nearly 1,000,000 of the people of Pskov region died, were killed, transferred in Germany or evacuated. A lot of those people became the victims of the men who served in the Estonian police battalions.

    Right after the capturing of Pskov region in 1941 the Germans formed immediately police security battalions. The basis of those battalions were the officers of former Estonian army and the members of nationalistic [Baltic] organizations. Pskov region was divided between two control bodies – districts “Estonia” and “Latvia”.

    Totally 10 Estonian battalions with 10,000 in number operated in Pskov region. The local department of SD (German Security Service which busied itself with intelligence and counterespionage) was formed from Estonians also.

    The Germans organized the local Pskov department of Gestapo [German Secret Police] which was also formed from the people from Estonia; it was subordinated to German Command but was a separate structure. According the evidences of witnesses a man or a woman who was taken by the German Gestapo had some chances to survive but if anyone who was taken by the Estonian Gestapo his relatives didn’t suppose to see his or her more.

    The exact amount of the people who were killed in Pskov region by Estonian members of punitive actions was not possible to define. Totally, according the data of the Pskov regional commission of the investigation of misdeeds and damages, inflicted by German-Fascist invaders, more 350,000 people were killed in camps in the territory of Pskov region.

    Alexander Gamov”
    Last edited by Andrey; 08 May 05, 08:31.

  • #2
    This is a rehash of the 1970s piece on a show trial in Pskov. In this case Pupart has actually confessed after returning from Siberia that he did take part in an incident where he and Piigli executed by machine-gun several captured partisans. However the article uses a few facts and then implies that Estonians were largely responsible for whatever happened in the Pskov area. This is utter nonsense.

    Estonians were minding their own business until Stalin decided to conquer and occupy them. The police battalions were formed immediately after the arrival of the Germans. Most were formed from guerrillas and defected Red Army soldiers who had fought against the Soviets before the Germans came and just wanted to continue with it.

    Approximately 10 000 men volunteered and some 20 police battalions were formed. Some of these remained in Estonia where they were used for coast defence duties, others were sent abroad, initially for rear area duties but most were almost immediately pressed for front-line duty. Four or five of the police battalions served in the Pskov area at various times usually for a month or two at a time. At most there were two there at the same time (up to 1000 men).

    As to Estonian Gestapo, I know there was one Estonian-Russian who worked as an interpreter for Gestapo in Pskov.

    Although there were Estonian war criminals, the problem with these types of trials was that they were meant as political shows and were not very interested in truth. A confession was pressed out by whatever means and the case was closed. In this case this is evident by the completely absurd reasons the men told they volunteered to the Police Battalion.
    Last edited by pp(est); 21 Apr 05, 18:20.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Andrey
      Here is an article in the popular Russian newspaper “Komsomol’skaia Pravda” from April, 20th of 2005. (The name of newspaper stayed from the Soviet time when the newspaper was the most progressive youth newspaper so it was very popular.)

      “I shot off wounded…”

      …You see a photo of WWII time [see the first photo]. The men in this photo are not German soldiers. They are the men from the Estonian punitive platoon of Alexander Piigli (Александр Пиигли) [see the second photo].

      [The photos are given by Pskov Department of FSB of Russia]

      Why do those guys decided to take Nazis’ side? In interrogations (Piigli and his subordinates were arrested a few tens years after WWII) they emphasized that they became betrayers “under the pressure of circumstances”.

      Artur Pupart (Артур Пупарт) was afraid to be sent in Germany, Georg Veske (Георг Веске) was afraid that his Komsomol [Soviet Youth Communist Organization] activity would be recalled… But it doesn’t explain why they chose a police battalion and not a economical or building unit.

      May be, the fact is that any Estonian who joined to a police battalion was promised by the Germans to get 3 hectares of a land in occupied territory [of USSR]?

      Here are 14 volumes of the criminal case of Piigli and his subordinates. The papers turned yellow… But the evidences of the members of punitive expeditions sound ominously even now.

      The platoon arrived in Pskov region [a Russian region in the border with the Baltic States] in the spring of 1942. They took part in their first action already a month later.

      “The people arrested for the help to partisans were kept in the concentration camp near the settlement of Polna” – Piigli spoke in an interrogation. – “Sometimes they were taken out for shooting of them.” The Estonian members of punitive actions were afraid of the partisans. So the arms of each prisoner were tied together and then they were taken out in a forest with trucks with awnings.

      From the evidences of Private Georg Veske: “Together with the other soldiers of our platoon under the command pf Piigli and escorted by a German officer and a few German soldiers we took out 10 prisoners from Polna… They were tied to pales which were dug into ground. We shot according a command of Piigli. One prisoner didn’t fall after our volley. Piigli approached to him and shot him a few times with a pistol.”

      Piigli himself confirmed the last fact: “I marshaled my soldiers for a shooting and gave all the necessary commands. And if it was necessary I shot off the prisoners who were wounded only.”

      ”For the zeal in the struggle against partisans”

      For one and a half years the members of punitive expeditions from the platoon of Piigli left enough traces in Pskov region. The investigation proved 5 facts of the shooting of civilians: June 1942 – 9 civilians, July 1942 – 10, August 1942 – 10, September 1942 – 25-30.

      The investigation proved the participation of Piigli’s soldiers in punitive raids amounting to the 37th Estonian Police Battalion. Only during the Operation “Swamp-Fever” the members of punitive expedition killed more 12,000 people. The group of Piigli was in good standing with the Germans. Piigli even was awarded ”for the zeal in the struggle against partisans” – he got an Iron Cross of the 2nd rank.

      In 1943 the German Command began to form a division SS from the Estonian police battalions. Piigli together with Artur Pupart and Verner Soer (Вернер Соэр) passed on to Estonian Waffen-SS, sworn to be faithful to Nazi Germany and took part in combats against the Red Army. The “battle career” of Piigli finished in 1945 in Czechoslovakia in a POW camp where he hided with artificial name.

      Piigli's identity was established only in the end of 60th years. Piigli was arrested. Six other soldiers of Piigli’s platoon were judged together wit Piigli: Harri Iuksara (Харри Юксара), Georg Veske, Eduard Lumiste (Эдуард Лумисте), Arnold Tanga (Арнольд Танга), Artur Pupart, and Verner Soer. Piigli and five the others were condemned to death

      But a lot of former members of punitive expeditions stay in Russian Federal and in International Search even now: there are no statute of limitation in Russia to members of punitive expeditions and betrayers.

      Sergey Ermolaev (“KP” - Pskov)

      OUR REFERENCE

      1,500,000 people lived in Pskov region in 1941. Less than 570,000 people were there 3 years later. During the German occupation nearly 1,000,000 of the people of Pskov region died, were killed, transferred in Germany or evacuated. A lot of those people became the victims of the men who served in the Estonian police battalions.

      Right after the capturing of Pskov region in 1941 the Germans formed immediately police security battalions. The basis of those battalions were the officers of former Estonian army and the members of nationalistic [Baltic] organizations. Pskov region was divided between two control bodies – districts “Estonia” and “Latvia”.

      Totally 10 Estonian battalions with 10,000 in number operated in Pskov region. The local department of SD (German Security Service which busied itself with intelligence and counterespionage) was formed from Estonians also.

      The Germans organized the local Pskov department of Gestapo [German Secret Police] which was also formed from the people from Estonia; it was subordinated to German Command but was a separate structure. According the evidences of witnesses a man or a woman who was taken by the German Gestapo had some chances to survive but if anyone who was taken by the Estonian Gestapo his relatives didn’t suppose to see his or her more.

      The exact amount of the people who were killed in Pskov region by Estonian members of punitive actions was not possible to define. Totally, according the data of the Pskov regional commission of the investigation of misdeeds and damages, inflicted by German-Fascist invaders, more 350,000 people were killed in camps in the territory of Pskov region.

      Alexander Gamov”
      OK so this is from a Russian newspaper about what happened in Estonia? Sounds like anti-Estonian propaganda to me.

      As for your numbers you give, where do these numbers come from? How do they arrive at these numbers?

      I would like to hear the Estonian side of this story to compare to it.
      Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

      Comment


      • #4
        Photos:
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Psycho1943, this is an old piece of Soviet propaganda. The Pskov region is in Russia just across the border from Estonia. The men in question did in fact participate in some incidents which legality is at least dubious and quite possibly criminal. However this incident is used to imply that Estonians were ruling the Pskov area and were a major part of German operations there. That of course is nonsense.

          Estonia was occupied by Germany and had no independent say on what units were recruited by the Germans or what those units did. Germans were succesful in recruiting numerous volunteer units due to the actions of the Soviets during their occupation right after the Soviet occupation, where men who were already fighting Soviets wanted to continue fighting and again in early 1944 when the arrival of a large number of Estonian volunteers held the Red Army away from Estonia for some six months.

          The idea of the piece is also to portray Estonians as particularly vile and greedy bunch. The 3 hectares bit is absolute rubbish. No Estonian would be enticed by a promise of 3 hectares in Russia - that would not even make a self-sufficient farm. The reality is, at the time men widely believed that Germany was indeed a liberator, which would restore our independence, and thus felt volunteering to fight for them would further our cause, of course a lot of people joined up for the chance to avenge the wrongs done by the Soviets just a month or two ago.

          There were a few other trials of this kind portraying various Estonian units. These cases relied usually on the confessions of the accused and while there sometimes were a grain of truth somewhere, most of the confessions were just absurd. Like one survivor of such an ordeal has told that then you have been tortured for weeks, the thought of execution feels such a relief that you'll confess to anything.
          Last edited by pp(est); 22 Apr 05, 01:56.

          Comment


          • #6
            Andrey,

            From what I read this was a trial during the the time Estonia was a member of the USSR. Are you sure the Communists gave everyone a fair trial? How many times have you ever seen someone found innocent in court during the Communist regime? I hear after the Red Army marched into Estonia in 1939, the NKVD started looking through the Estonian population for anti-communists and reactionaries. Would you be as fierce if Estonia was asking the Russia to return these ex-NKVD agents? Besides, what happened to these Estonians that were arrested, tried and lived to be deported?

            You are implying that these Estonians had no business in Russia, which I can certainly understand, but what about Russians in Estonia? You can't cry foul about one group and ignore the other.

            Looking back, why would a young Estonian join the Police? Is it not possible that they were drafted? I don't think there was enough room in all the labor battalions for all Estonians to join.

            How about we say that EVERY criminal that did foul crimes in the Great Patriotic War should be found, tried and have justice served? That way we go after every one!

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #7
              Pruitt, Estonia was not a member of USSR - it was occupied by USSR. This trial was a show trial which outcome was decided before it had started by the party. Often these trials mixed completely fabricated accusations with some truths - in this case I believe the men did participate in some transgressions, although I don't have enough facts to really assess what to make of it.

              In this case it appears (although I cannot be certain) the men were originally truly freedom fighters who had started the fighting against the Soviet occupation before the Germans arrived and just kept going. It is possible that their actions in Russia were partly a reaction to what they saw the Soviets do in Estonia the previous year - although that is not a justification, if they did commit crimes.

              Estonians in general fought in German armed forces to avoid the repeat of the horrors of 1940-1941 in Soviet hands. It is a certainty that had the Soviets not occupied Estonia nor committed the atrocities what they did here, no Estonian would have volunteered to fight for the Germans - in fact the first Estonian to die in combat in WWII may have been an Estonian volunteer fighting the Germans in Norway.

              I definitely agree we should go after every criminal and our police is investigating both Nazi and Soviet war criminals all the time.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pruitt
                Andrey,

                From what I read this was a trial during the the time Estonia was a member of the USSR. Are you sure the Communists gave everyone a fair trial? How many times have you ever seen someone found innocent in court during the Communist regime? I hear after the Red Army marched into Estonia in 1939, the NKVD started looking through the Estonian population for anti-communists and reactionaries. Would you be as fierce if Estonia was asking the Russia to return these ex-NKVD agents? Besides, what happened to these Estonians that were arrested, tried and lived to be deported?

                You are implying that these Estonians had no business in Russia, which I can certainly understand, but what about Russians in Estonia? You can't cry foul about one group and ignore the other.

                Looking back, why would a young Estonian join the Police? Is it not possible that they were drafted? I don't think there was enough room in all the labor battalions for all Estonians to join.

                How about we say that EVERY criminal that did foul crimes in the Great Patriotic War should be found, tried and have justice served? That way we go after every one!

                Pruitt
                I can't wait till Andrey sees your post.
                Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pruitt
                  Andrey,

                  From what I read this was a trial during the the time Estonia was a member of the USSR. Are you sure the Communists gave everyone a fair trial? How many times have you ever seen someone found innocent in court during the Communist regime?
                  How do you suppose Soviet judge system? Do not mix Stalin's time and the later period.

                  In Stalin's time the tirtures of prisoners were permitted, in post-Stalin's USSR the tortures of prisoners were forbidden and judge system was improved in large scale.

                  That trial was made in 60th, it was made by KGB and it was very serious organization to make many mistakes.

                  I'll explain something to you. In USSR any prisoner at the bar had right to have an attorney who would defend him.

                  The system was following - court was made only if police investigators had necessary proofs of the guilt of a prisoner at the bar. If investigators couldn't gather such proofs so prisoner at the bar would be released without any court.
                  Any judge was imposible without the proofs of a crime.

                  In the court an attorney was able to break proofs of the guilt of those proofs were not good enough. If it was impossible to prove innocence in a court so why to have attorneys? Each case when prisoner at the bar was released in a court meant that police worked badly and the investigators didn't give good proofs to a court so the investigators got dressing-down from their chiefs. So police investigators tried to send a case in a court only if they had a serious proofs. KGB had the best experienced investigators so they made the least amount of mistakes.

                  I know that there were many cases in post-Stalin's USSR when a court released prisoners at the bar. I have no statistics but I know that it was.

                  The trial which is described was made in the style of a usual police investigation of a murders. In a trial those Estonian military criminals were blamed only a completely proved episodes of their activity. The prisoners at the bar confessed to crimes and described how it was.

                  I had no doubts that those guys really were military criminals and really made all what is said in that case and in the article.

                  I hear after the Red Army marched into Estonia in 1939, the NKVD started looking through the Estonian population for anti-communists and reactionaries. Would you be as fierce if Estonia was asking the Russia to return these ex-NKVD agents?
                  1. Soviets in Estonia... Estonia was a part of USSR and lived according Soviet rules.

                  There was no Soviet occupation of Estonia. Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact meant only that Germany is not

                  At first there was an official agreement between USSR and Baltic States about to place Soviet garrisons in a few places on the territory of Baltic States. Local governmemnts signed it, it was not an occupation. There are US military bases in many countries of a World but it doesn't mean that all those countries are occupied by USA.

                  Then in summer of 1940 the Baltic States OFFICIALY ASKED to join to USSR. It is well known fact. Local governments asked about it, not Soviet troops entered there and occupied the Baltic States. It is well known and documented fact that many people from Baltic States were glad to join to USSR, there were mass demonstrations in Baltic States, in which people supported the decision to join to USSR. There are many photos of those demonstrations.

                  Yes, USSR mad pressure on the governments of Baltic Stats to force them to join but the Baltic States had choice to not join and to fight like the Finns did in 1939-40.
                  If they fought and surrendered or were conquered so they would able to speak that they were occupied. They would able to speak that they were occupied if Soviet garrisons in Baltic States suddenly captured Baltic States or arrested local government. There was no anything like this. There was only a threat of Soviet invasion if they do not join. So it was an official decision of the Baltic States to join to USSR, they made their choice.

                  Soviet troops came there not to conquer new country, they entered there when the Baltic States became Soviet territory so Soviet troops can move across Soviet territory without restrictions.

                  The armies of Baltic States practically with its full complementwere were renamed and joined to RKKA as three rifle corpses of RKKA.

                  And practically there was no resistance.

                  If later some part of local ppulation disliked Soviet rules it doesn't mean that they were occupied. It means that they were not against to join to USSR where the joining occurred, all theur senses later do not related to the fact how they joined to USSR.

                  2. The question is not about trials of military criminals. The question is about the description of events. Anyone in Russia agrees with Stalin's repressions. Yes, NKVD agents went across all USSR (not only in Baltic States so it were not actions of genocide of the Lithonians, Estonians and Latvians) and arrested people who were considered enemies of Stalin's regime. And Russia denied agreed that it was bad.

                  But modern Baltic States speak that their Waffen SS members were innocent freedopm fighters, operated only in Baltic states, fought only against Soviet invaders and are not related to the crimes of SS and nazies. The article shows that it is false, the article gives some concrete examples of military crimes of Estonians who later joined Estonian Waffen SS. The article gives example of military crimes which were made by those Estonian who are considered national heroes ion modern Estonia.

                  Besides, what happened to these Estonians that were arrested, tried and lived to be deported?
                  Some of them died, some of them returned home, some of them stayed to live in the places where they were deported.

                  All what you described HAD FINISHED after the death of Stain in 1953!!!

                  After the death of Stalin GULAG was destroyed for a few years, practically all innocent prisoners returned home. Many innocent victims were officially rehabilitated. Many concrete people who were guilty in crimes were punished. Soviet secret services got order to stop Stalin's methods, mass repressions stopped, Soviet police became operate approximately like police in other countries.

                  You are implying that these Estonians had no business in Russia, which I can certainly understand, but what about Russians in Estonia? You can't cry foul about one group and ignore the other.
                  Those Estonians came in Russian land and made there military crimes which were proved. Did you read in the end of the article the results of statictics researches what was result of the activity of pro-German Estonians in Pskov region?

                  The modern Baltic propaganda speaks that Estonians, who fought as German allies including the members of Estonian Waffen SS, were only freedom fighters and fought for the independence of Estonia. If they were freedom fighters only so why did they came in Russian Pskov region and why did they make military crimes there? Why did they come in Russian land, why did they murder Russian civilians there? Later those Estonian guys from police security battalions joined Estonian Waffen SS and now modern Estonian propaganda speak that Waffen SS were only freedom fighters.

                  Reread it:
                  "The investigation proved the participation of Piigli’s soldiers in punitive raids amounting to the 37th Estonian Police Battalion. Only during the Operation “Swamp-Fever” the members of punitive expedition killed more 12,000 people."

                  It was only one police battalion amnd it was only about only one operation.

                  That battalion killed 12,000 people, mainly innocent civilians, for one operation only!!!!.

                  And now those guys are considered national heroes of Estonia who defended their Motherland from Communists...

                  Looking back, why would a young Estonian join the Police? Is it not possible that they were drafted?
                  Did you read article? It is clearly that those guys joined volunterally a police security battalion, it is a proved fact. And the Germans promised to give them 3 hectares of a former Russian land in Pskov region after the war.

                  I don't think there was enough room in all the labor battalions for all Estonians to join.
                  Those guys volunterally joined to German troops and they chose a police security battalion. They had to understand what will be their duties. If they joined pro-German forces “under the pressure of circumstances” they were able to join to not so evil units like police security battalions.

                  How about we say that EVERY criminal that did foul crimes in the Great Patriotic War should be found, tried and have justice served? That way we go after every one!
                  Agree. Give concrete proofs (like police does with usual criminals) of Soviet military crimes and make trial! Give concrete names, dates, places, names of victims, witnesses, papers which prove that fact and so on. All what I hear is only common words.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, USSR mad pressure on the governments of Baltic Stats to force them to join but the Baltic States had choice to not join and to fight like the Finns did in 1939-40.
                    I DON'T consider that as a choice...
                    “Die in peace my brothers, but die quietly, so that we hear nothing but the faintest echo of your suffering…”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trigger Happy
                      I DON'T consider that as a choice...
                      Finland had the same choice in 1939 and it was even not so important to Finland in 1939 as it was only about a part of territory.

                      Finland had no chances to win the war against so mighty country like USSR. In the end Finnish forces were practically broken and only political reasons prevented the complete defeat of Finland.

                      Yugoslavia and Greece in 1941 had no chances to stop Viermacht but they fought.

                      US marines in Wake Island also had no chances to win but they fought. A British auxulairy cruiser "Ravalpindi" had no chances to win but it fought against German battleship. There are many such situations...

                      Baltic States made their choice in 1940, they voluntarelly joined to USSR. Nobody knows what would happen if they refused the Soviet offer to join...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I saw an interview of a Russian FSB officer who specializes in military criminals. He said an amazed story. FSB got a letter from a Baltic State (I don’t remember exactly from what country). A former member of Waffen SS who was considered a military criminal in Russia wrote a letter in Russian FSB. He asked Russian FSB to write an official letter in his country and to confirm that according Russian FSB data he really served in Waffen SS and is considered a military criminal in Russia. He wrote that he lost all his papers of WWII time and if FSB writes the letter he will get very good pension as a hero of struggle for independence.

                        The Russian FSB officer was amazed by such cheek…

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Andrey
                          Finland had the same choice in 1939 and it was even not so important to Finland in 1939 as it was only about a part of territory.
                          Actually the offer given to Finland was exactly the same as for instance Estonia - allow Soviets to build some bases on their soil in return for protection.

                          Originally posted by Andrey
                          Baltic States made their choice in 1940, they voluntarelly joined to USSR. Nobody knows what would happen if they refused the Soviet offer to join...
                          They voluntarily signed a treaty with Stalin which allowed Stalin to build some bases in their territory in return for protection - of course they should have known better than to trust Stalin. What happened next was that Stalin broke his treaties, staged a coup and staged a show of "voluntary" accession. Even a cursory knowledge of Estonian constitution and election law would make it immediately obvious that there was no such thing.

                          Andrey, of course you know all of the above but keep insisting on the official Stalin's version of events no matter how obviously phony they were.

                          Finland in making their decision had actually the advantage of knowing some of Stalin's intention from seeing what happened in our country. Finns had pretty much exact knowledge of what was happening as we were relaying all the information we had directly to Finland. Finland for instance knew that Stalin broke his treaty with us from day one by bringing in a lot more troops to the bases than allowed by the treaty.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Andrey
                            I saw an interview of a Russian FSB officer who specializes in military criminals. He said an amazed story. FSB got a letter from a Baltic State (I don’t remember exactly from what country).
                            This is just utter nonsense. There is no such thing as a special pension for war criminals. There is however a special pension for those repressed by Stalin. For instance the mother of my wife receives it for being sent to Siberia when she was 5 years old (and being one of the lucky few of her age to survive it - most of my family's kids didn't make it). I am sure she is listed in FSB as a devious war criminal...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              In Stalin's time the tirtures of prisoners were permitted, in post-Stalin's USSR the tortures of prisoners were forbidden and judge system was improved in large scale.
                              Prisoners are tortured in Russia as we speak. The torture chambers below Pagari 1 (the infamous KGB HQ) were used well into the 80s and there are a number of witnesses to those. There are also plenty of examples of good old Soviet "justice" system in work during the late 80s.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              I'll explain something to you. In USSR any prisoner at the bar had right to have an attorney who would defend him.

                              The system was following - court was made only if police investigators had necessary proofs of the guilt of a prisoner at the bar. If investigators couldn't gather such proofs so prisoner at the bar would be released without any court.
                              Any judge was imposible without the proofs of a crime.
                              You are kidding me right? You obviously have know idea, how the Soviet system worked in political cases?

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              In the court an attorney was able to break proofs of the guilt of those proofs were not good enough. If it was impossible to prove innocence in a court so why to have attorneys? Each case when prisoner at the bar was released in a court meant that police worked badly and the investigators didn't give good proofs to a court so the investigators got dressing-down from their chiefs. So police investigators tried to send a case in a court only if they had a serious proofs. KGB had the best experienced investigators so they made the least amount of mistakes.
                              Mmm, so give one example of a political case, where the defendant's were found not guilty? The reality is that in polical cases the decision was made in party headquarters. The confession was beaten out of the suitable suspect (the suspect was often chosen based on info received from KGB "knocker"). A show trial was held and the victim was thrown into a suitable camp (some camps were in effect death penalties, because politicals didn't last more than a day or two in those - this was well known and sometimes used to get rid of people while still maintaining the facade of "justice being served").

                              I actually know people who went through it (in the 80s).

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              I know that there were many cases in post-Stalin's USSR when a court released prisoners at the bar. I have no statistics but I know that it was.
                              Of course - but only in ordinary criminal cases which mattered little.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              The trial which is described was made in the style of a usual police investigation of a murders. In a trial those Estonian military criminals were blamed only a completely proved episodes of their activity. The prisoners at the bar confessed to crimes and described how it was.
                              The prisoners (which is the correct term - since they were already convicted and sentenced by the time they got to court) were just beaten out confessions. As many of the victims of these kinds of trials have told - there comes a point where you are ready to confess anything and the bullet of the executioner is something you no longer fear but what you yearn for to get some relief.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              Then in summer of 1940 the Baltic States OFFICIALY ASKED to join to USSR. It is well known fact. Local governments asked about it, not Soviet troops entered there and occupied the Baltic States. It is well known and documented fact that many people from Baltic States were glad to join to USSR, there were mass demonstrations in Baltic States, in which people supported the decision to join to USSR. There are many photos of those demonstrations.
                              You conveniently forgot the coup which preceded the "asking". you also conveniently forgot that those massive 2000 people which were holding "demonstrations" to join USSR were brought into Tallinn in Soviet military lorries under the supervision of you know who. You are right about the fact that there sure are many photos of those people...

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              if Soviet garrisons in Baltic States suddenly captured Baltic States or arrested local government.
                              This is exactly what happened.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              If later some part of local ppulation disliked Soviet rules it doesn't mean that they were occupied. It means that they were not against to join to USSR where the joining occurred, all theur senses later do not related to the fact how they joined to USSR.
                              So how would you explain the fact that the Soviets had to cancel the candidatures of all non-communist party members in the "elections" that "elected" the "parliament" which "asked" to join the USSR? Why did the "elections" had to be organised in complete violation of our constitution and election laws? Why did people who opposed the "elections" vocally disappear at night? Why was our army disarmed? Why were most senior politicians arrested? Why did our men flee to Finland to join Finnish army? Why were almost all those who were the vocal supporters of "joining" the USSR and who are most prominent in those pictures you mention, people who had not been in Estonia in the twenties or thirties and sometimes never in their lives?


                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              But modern Baltic States speak that their Waffen SS members were innocent freedopm fighters, operated only in Baltic states, fought only against Soviet invaders and are not related to the crimes of SS and nazies. The article shows that it is false, the article gives some concrete examples of military crimes of Estonians who later joined Estonian Waffen SS. The article gives example of military crimes which were made by those Estonian who are considered national heroes ion modern Estonia.
                              You'll note that the article actually discusses the actions of a police battalion - a unit which was not part of the waffen SS. I would ask you to point out where and how in Estonia are these particular men considered national heroes? I've never questioned that there were war criminals among Estonians serving the German forces (there were many more among Estonians serving the Red Army, but that is beside the point here).

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              After the death of Stalin GULAG was destroyed for a few years, practically all innocent prisoners returned home. Many innocent victims were officially rehabilitated. Many concrete people who were guilty in crimes were punished. Soviet secret services got order to stop Stalin's methods, mass repressions stopped, Soviet police became operate approximately like police in other countries.
                              So what exactly were people doing in the Gulags in the 80s? Why for instance was taking pictures of Soviet housing, distributing the pictures and making critical commentaries of it, sufficient for a de facto death sentence? Why were completely sane people institutionalised in mental institutions in the 80s? Why was there an active russification campaign in Estonia in the 80s?

                              Our police certainly does not operate anything like the Soviet militia did.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              Those Estonians came in Russian land and made there military crimes which were proved. Did you read in the end of the article the results of statictics researches what was result of the activity of pro-German Estonians in Pskov region?
                              The statistics was the fun part. While it is impossible to prove or disprove what specific individuals did or not do when the people themselves are dead, the false statistics is a clear indication of what the purpose of the article is.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              The modern Baltic propaganda speaks that Estonians, who fought as German allies including the members of Estonian Waffen SS, were only freedom fighters and fought for the independence of Estonia. If they were freedom fighters only so why did they came in Russian Pskov region and why did they make military crimes there? Why did they come in Russian land, why did they murder Russian civilians there? Later those Estonian guys from police security battalions joined Estonian Waffen SS and now modern Estonian propaganda speak that Waffen SS were only freedom fighters.
                              By far the majority of Estonians fighting in German ranks fought in order to avoid the recurrence of Soviet occupation. Unfortunately Stalin had undone our government and the options open for men were few. They could either join the Germans or do nothing. Once they joined the Germans, they rarely had a say in where they were sent or how they were utilised. Fortunately Germans considered our troops as excellent front-line soldiers and thus most of the units served in front-line and generally had little to nothing to do with the atrocities committed in the rear.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              Those guys volunterally joined to German troops and they chose a police security battalion. They had to understand what will be their duties. If they joined pro-German forces “under the pressure of circumstances” they were able to join to not so evil units like police security battalions.
                              What was so evil about police battalions? Most police battalions served either in Estonia or in the front-line and did not participate in any kind of atrocity at all. You seem to have a very optimistic view about the available choices to these men.

                              Originally posted by Andrey
                              Give concrete proofs (like police does with usual criminals) of Soviet military crimes and make trial! Give concrete names, dates, places, names of victims, witnesses, papers which prove that fact and so on. All what I hear is only common words.
                              Unlike the men in that article, we do give Soviet war criminals due process. I hope Arnold Meri is next in line. We'll hear about the concrete names, dates, places, names of victims, witnesses and documentary proof then (just like we've heard about the previous criminals who have been tried). I only hope the man doesn't die before he can be brought to justice properly.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X