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  • Katyusha point blank fire

    Is there a difference for Katyusha rocket to fire point blank ( v ypor) and direct fire (pryamoi navodkoi)?
    At a point blank range how would an M-13 launcher fire at a near range target, such as Flerov's battery when trapped by Germans in October 1941?
    Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

  • #2
    Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
    Is there a difference for Katyusha rocket to fire point blank ( v ypor) and direct fire (pryamoi navodkoi)?
    At a point blank range how would an M-13 launcher fire at a near range target, such as Flerov's battery when trapped by Germans in October 1941?
    Katyushas could't fire directly without preparations. For making this, they needed their front wheels to be digged into the ground.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      Originally posted by amvas View Post
      Katyushas could't fire directly without preparations. For making this, they needed their front wheels to be digged into the ground.
      I thought that would be necessary since the launch rail could go no lower than the truck cab top. Do you have a source that speaks to the digging as a recognized procedure? Or is it just an expedient measure?
      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
        I thought that would be necessary since the launch rail could go no lower than the truck cab top. Do you have a source that speaks to the digging as a recognized procedure? Or is it just an expedient measure?
        http://www.rulit.me/books/ogon-vedut...324216-39.html

        " Для снижения угла прицеливания машина задними колесами наехала на отлогий скат кургана. Этот маневр быстро и четко выполнили лейтенант Алексей Бартеньев и командир боевой машины Смирнов со своим расчетом."

        For example.
        there exists quite many mentioning of this way of fire.
        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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        • #5
          Originally posted by amvas View Post
          http://www.rulit.me/books/ogon-vedut...324216-39.html

          " Для снижения угла прицеливания машина задними колесами наехала на отлогий скат кургана. Этот маневр быстро и четко выполнили лейтенант Алексей Бартеньев и командир боевой машины Смирнов со своим расчетом."

          For example.
          there exists quite many mentioning of this way of fire.
          Great! Appreciate the lead. Owe you another rep.
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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          • #6
            Could they jack up the rear, or did they have dig a trench to get the launchers level?
            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
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            • #7
              Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
              Could they jack up the rear, or did they have dig a trench to get the launchers level?
              As far as I could see there were two ways
              1. digging a trench for the front wheels
              2. using suitable inclined ground surface for getting desired elevation angle for direct fire
              If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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              • #8
                Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
                Great! Appreciate the lead. Owe you another rep.
                If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by amvas View Post
                  As far as I could see there were two ways
                  1. digging a trench for the front wheels
                  Fair amount of prep required for that. Do you know if they piled the dirt up in front of the cab so it was "dug in", or did they use the excavated dirt for the ramp under the rear wheels?
                  2. using suitable inclined ground surface for getting desired elevation angle for direct fire
                  Very fast if the appropriate terrain is available, but the cab of the truck is exposed to counter-fire.

                  Nice tactical problem.
                  Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                  Hyperwar, Whats New
                  World War II Resources
                  The best place in the world to "work".

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                    Nice tactical problem.
                    It is an interesting tactical problem. Because of the dust blow up from the back blast of so many rockets, the rocket units had to move immediately after a salvo or they risk counterbattery or air attack. Consequently, there was no advantage to physically preparing the firing position. There would be such efforts for camouflage in the hide position. At the firing position it would be rapid set up, aiming, firing, then departure.

                    In general cases of firing at targets observed from the firing position, horizontal targeting was carried directly on the target. The War Experience Directorate on the Red Army General Staff believed for the purpose of the most complete and effective use of the strength of the Guards Mortar Units was its suddenness and great firepower and it was necessary to fire salvos across an area. Firing on single targets has little effectiveness and inefficient, essentially wasteful.

                    The other case is the firing at point blank which are probably situations of the rocket units being surprised trapped by enemy armor. In this case, the firing would be expedient measures with no time for preparation.
                    Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                      Fair amount of prep required for that. Do you know if they piled the dirt up in front of the cab so it was "dug in", or did they use the excavated dirt for the ramp under the rear wheels?
                      No, such a details I can't remember.

                      Frankly, this kind of works are not too hard to do.

                      Very fast if the appropriate terrain is available, but the cab of the truck is exposed to counter-fire.

                      Nice tactical problem.
                      Yes, this kind of vehicles are not the best for direct fire. But been well-masked after the first direct volley usually there were nobody who could reply..at least quickly
                      Last edited by amvas; 02 Apr 17, 08:35.
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                      • #12
                        I remember a video of a LCI(R)* ripple firing 1,000 5 inch rockets, preparatory to a landing. I couldn't imagine what it was like in the target zone.


                        *probably, I didn't get the hull number
                        Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                        Hyperwar, Whats New
                        World War II Resources
                        The best place in the world to "work".

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
                          It is an interesting tactical problem. Because of the dust blow up from the back blast of so many rockets, the rocket units had to move immediately after a salvo or they risk counterbattery or air attack.
                          Yes, but even not aviation, but back artillery fire thread was more dangerous.

                          Consequently, there was no advantage to physically preparing the firing position. There would be such efforts for camouflage in the hide position. At the firing position it would be rapid set up, aiming, firing, then departure.
                          Usually fire positions was plain fields. Quickly arrived, fired and ran away.

                          In general cases of firing at targets observed from the firing position, horizontal targeting was carried directly on the target. The War Experience Directorate on the Red Army General Staff believed for the purpose of the most complete and effective use of the strength of the Guards Mortar Units was its suddenness and great firepower and it was necessary to fire salvos across an area. Firing on single targets has little effectiveness and inefficient, essentially wasteful.
                          Indeed.
                          Direct fire was used (or expected) only when some breakthrough of enemy forces could happen, or waited for.

                          The other case is the firing at point blank which are probably situations of the rocket units being surprised trapped by enemy armor. In this case, the firing would be expedient measures with no time for preparation.
                          Yes, correct.
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by amvas View Post
                            Usually fire positions was plain fields. Quickly arrived, fired and ran away.
                            As I understand the sequence, the rocket units would begin in a hide position, then move 12-18 kilometers to a load position where they could load the M-13's in a few minutes. Once loaded and time for their mission, they moved 300-400 meters to the firing position. After firing, the unit would immediately depart the firing position to move either to a hide position or another load position depending on number of missions and timing.
                            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                            • #15
                              I think there might be a semantical difference between the terms. "Direct fire" might be the fire at a visible target, as opposed to "indirect fire" which is the fire at certain coordinates on a map outside the visibility range. At the same time the term "point blank" seems denote firing missiles at a very short distance, like the tactics Katyusha crews employed in Berlin when they fired at the walls of buildings located 300-400 meters away from the vehicles.
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