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  • Originally posted by pp(est)
    JSMoss, I don't get it. Do atrocities committed in the name of Hitler somehow make atrocities committed in the name of Stalin ok? Is it some kind of a quid pro quo system? I think the whole relevant issue here is that while there is no question whether Hitler was utterly evil then how should we assess Stalin?

    The point is the selective Russian bashing that goes on here which is largely pointless, ill informed, and out of context. Excusing and explaing are two different things.
    Boston Strong!

    Comment


    • Sounds like you missed most of the key elements of this discusion, Moss. It is not - and never has been - about "Russia bashing", as you so quaintly put it.

      It started as West bashing and decrying the recorded history of the rest of the world, and it progressed to Russia being saintlier than anyone else because they claim either not have done evil things, or to have done them "but not as many as that other guy", whatever that is supposed to mean.

      "Spin" is one thing; this is a Russian engineeered T-5 tornado, sweeping all logic and reason from its path.

      BTW - your rape figures are off by roughly 67% from Allied records from WWII, taken from the population of the Berlin region alone, where 300,000 rapes were officially attributed to Soviet troops.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • this is a Russian engineeered T-5 tornado, sweeping all logic and reason from its path.
        Thats an interesting statement coming from you.. "logic and reason".. I'd suppose you believe that "Logic and reason" are the things that stand behind your arguments?

        BTW - your rape figures are off by roughly 67% from Allied records from WWII, taken from the population of the Berlin region alone, where 300,000 rapes were officially attributed to Soviet troops.
        These figures you allude to.. "From Allied records"(since when are there Allied records for rapes committed by Soviet soldiers?).. they wouldn't be from a book called "Fall of Berlin" by any chance would they?? In any case, it's funny to me how the figures you provide, MountainMan, are as usual unquestionably correct while JSMoss's figures are automatically "OFF by XX percent.. etc."?

        You were not there, you did not witness what happened, therefore - you have NO moral right to make any claims and pass judgement.
        Last edited by VDV; 10 May 05, 02:36.

        Comment


        • VDV, I was not there at the Holocaust, I was not there then Stalin butchered the Chechens or starved the Ukrainians, I was not there then the cross-atlantic slave trade killed millions, I was not there when Pol Pot slaughtered his people, and I was not there at the rape of Berlin (which while minor - if only Berlin is considered - compared to the above is still a major atrocity in its own right). Yet I still find I have the moral right to condemn all of the above.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pp(est)
            VDV, I was not there at the Holocaust, I was not there then Stalin butchered the Chechens or starved the Ukrainians, I was not there then the cross-atlantic slave trade killed millions, I was not there when Pol Pot slaughtered his people, and I was not there at the rape of Berlin (which while minor - if only Berlin is considered - compared to the above is still a major atrocity in its own right). Yet I still find I have the moral right to condemn all of the above.

            well said ,enough of the flame wars here guys the war was won by a team effort by the allies and the world ..
            owner of the yahoo group for WW1 ,WW2 and Modern TO&Es
            (Tables of organisation & equipment or Unit of action )

            http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

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            • Originally posted by MountainMan
              BTW - your rape figures are off by roughly 67% from Allied records from WWII, taken from the population of the Berlin region alone, where 300,000 rapes were officially attributed to Soviet troops.
              The key here is "officially attributed" you will find many of those were not supported by medical examination which was the basis for my figures. It is just evidence that nearly all "facts" are biased on both sides and the key is understanding where they came from not just what is claimed to be true.
              Boston Strong!

              Comment


              • VDV - I answered that question about the source previously. My father was one of the staff officers at the Nuremberg Tribunals. He had access to a broad range of documents and sources, including verified information from Berlin concerning both German and Soviet atrocities.

                As far as the right of moral judgement - yes, in fact I do have that right. Every decent human being does. No one has to "be there" to know the difference between what's right and what's wrong. Logic like yours is what leads atrocities being swept under the rug of history by those who would prefer to keep them hidden.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Andrey
                  You read what I wrote but you do not want to understand what I wrote or play the fool.
                  Not true. It is not that I don't want to understand it is that I cannot understand. There is a difference. You don't seem to understand my reasoning. I keep saying that neither you or I was there so we have to go by eyewitnesses and sources to find out the truth. I will believe an eyewitness that says something happened over the Soviet version which claims it didn't. That makes sense to pretty much anyone on here except you and VDV. You argue with pp(est) in another post about something that happened in his country because you say a Russian eyewitness should be believed. Why does it work for you but not for us?

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I repeat again for you what I wrote earlier twice:
                  "I wrote:
                  "The Soviet command had much more important things than to make statistics.If to speak about the preventing of such crimes so the Soviet Command made large effort to punish any soldier or officer who was blame in crimes against local civilians. If to speak about prevebting of crimes it is enough to punish guilties, to make statistics is not so important."

                  It means that the Soviet Command made efforts for preventing of rapes and it was possible to make it without making statistic researches."

                  I explain again SPECIALLY FOR YOU what I mean. I'll try to use words which are understandable to a kid.

                  Soviet troops became to enter in Germany. There is a possibility of large atrocities against German civilians. The task of Soviet command is to prevent it. It is not necessary to make a statistics researches with countings to stop the rapes. It is necessary only:
                  - to order many times for soldiers to not do atrocities,
                  - to investigate any such case if a German woman declared that she was raped or if a soldier or an officer was caught during the rape,
                  - to punish all the guilty rapers and to speak about any such punishment to other soldiers,
                  - to make a propaganda that "We are people and we have no to operate in German land like the Hitlerites operated in our land. We are humen and we have no to turn into animals, we have to stay humen."

                  All those efforts were made by the Soviet Command.

                  It is not necessary to make large scale counting of the victims of rapes to prevent rapes.
                  Andrey you are not talking to a child, I am 37 years old. Yes of course it is true that it isn't necessary to count rapes to prevent them. It is not the job of the Soviet Command to count rapes. Why would they? Why would they waste their time doing that? Why would they want a record kept of that? It would make the Soviets look bad. That is exactly why they would not do it.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  The task of Soviet Command was to prevent rape.
                  Really, I thought their job was to defeat the German Army and end the war.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  If the Soviet Command didn't make the large scale counting of the victims of rapes it doesn't mean that the Soviet Command didn't prevent the rapes. Is it understandable?
                  No I don't understand. Are you saying that the rapes did not happen because there is no recorded number? Some Soviet commanders might have stopped soldiers from raping, looting, beatings, or anything bad. That doesn't mean that all leaders did that though. I am sure that went on in the West quite a bit too by the US, Brits, and French. I haven't read anything specific but I am sure our guys did some raping and stealing.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  Indeed, you are anti-Russian biased independently what you yuorself suppose about it. You are inclined to support anti-Russian position in any question.
                  You read my posts as anti-Russian because of the bias you bring into reading them. I have never said any anti-Russian statements. I have not supported any positions. I merely said, as I said earlier above, I was not there (and neither were you) so I don't know the truth. There are records that things happened according to eyewitnesses but you discount them as just anti-Russian lies to make your country look bad. I don't know the truth but I would guess it is somewhere between what Beevor or other Western historians say and the official Soviet version. There is no way you can prove or disprove either side even if you were there because you could not be everywhere all the time to count any and all atrocities that might have occurred.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  What was in Poland and Czechoslovakia? I didn't hear about rapes there.
                  There are people throughout the old Warsaw Pact countries that complained about Soviet behavior but not on the scale that the Germans did.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  Baltic States... Was it Pp(est) who said about it? If he speaks about it in many his messages it doesn't mean that it was true.
                  I don't know where you got your nonsense and why you suppose it as a reliable data.
                  Again, why would his messages be nonsense. Why should I believe you over him? Anyone that doesn't agree with you is not to be believed. Apparently only Andrey and VDV know the truth of what happened and all eyewitnesses and people with a different opinion should be discounted. I will always believe him over you on what is going on in his country. If he tries to tell me what is going on in your country I would probably believe you over him.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I know what Soviet propaganda was. But there are a lot of memoirs of ordinary soldiers, officers, generals, which are not official propaganda. There are a lot of official documents, orders and so on about it.
                  Yeah, how many of those memoirs came out during the Soviet Union time period? How many people would write, "Hey, today my friends and I raped a couple of German women and then shot them" in their memoirs?

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I showed you enough in the example of Erenburg that Beevor distorted the meaning of Erenburg's propaganda. Readers of Beevor's book are cheated by Beevor and I easily proved it for a few minutes!!! His mistake with Erenburg is too large for a serious historian and it shows the common level of his scribble.
                  You are inclined to believe in any non-Russian sources but to not believe in any Russian sources. Andyou speak that you are not anti-Russian biased.
                  Once again as before, I don't know what the truth is. I don't know who is correct but you seem to know the truth even though you weren't there.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I didn't read what those doctors wrote, and you didn't read it.
                  A very good point. Neither of us read it so I must be wrong (even though I said I don't know what the truth is) and you must be right.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  There are different dictionaries, a small dictionaries and a large dictionaries. The less dictionary is the less amount of definitions it gives. I don't know what is your dictionary. And if I speak about a word of my native language I don't need look in a dictionary.
                  I am speaking about a word in my native language. The word "mass" is an English word. I did not need to look it up but I did anyway to give you the official definition according to the dictionary.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I looked my English-Russian dictionary and it proved me that the meaning of English "mass" is the same like Russian "massovyi".
                  I don't need to look up "mass" to find out the Russian word. Sometimes there aren't exact translations for words. From what I understand the phrase Chort Vozmyi (not sure of spelling) means "damn it." However, the literal translation is something like "devil take it." In German the word schweinhund means "bastard" but literal translation would be pig dog.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  Yes, really "mass" has two meaning - "the most part" and "a lot of".
                  But that "a lot of" is not only "many". It means and "a very large scale event", and "occuring everywhere", and "as a rule".
                  I understand it so.
                  Well you understand incorrectly. "Mass" does not mean the most part or occuring everywhere. It means a large number of. If the definition of "massovyi" is the most part or occuring everywhere then it should not be used as a translation for the word "mass" but instead for the word "most." The writer used the word mass to describe the rapes. If he had said that most of the soldiers committed rapes then your argument is valid.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  "Mass rapes" in Germany in 1945 means that everywhere where Soviet soldiers entered in a German city, town or a village a lot of local women were raped.
                  And I disagree with it.
                  You can disagree with the number of rapes and you might be right. This statement is actually correct. Many women were raped if there were mass rapes. Nowhere does it say that most of the soldiers did it though. See what happens when you read the actual words and understand the meaning of them. You should read the statement and not jump to conclusions about some hidden agenda the writer has.

                  Originally posted by Andrey
                  I don't see a personal attack, I see the repeatition of Nazies' propaganda which I consider false accirdig all my knowledge.
                  Not Nazi propaganda. Many of the eyewitnesses and sources that put out these stories have nothing to do with the Nazis or even Germany. Your knowledge does not make it untrue though. The knowledge that both of us have is not first hand so you should not say that you know the truth. You are going by the word of someone else who might have bias. That is what you are accusing me of. You say I should not believe someone just because they say something but that is exactly what you are doing.

                  Holy freakin crap! Andrey you type some really long posts man!
                  Check out our webpage for our NFL picks http://members.cox.net/mjohns59/

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                  • As far as the right of moral judgement - yes, in fact I do have that right. Every decent human being does. No one has to "be there" to know the difference between what's right and what's wrong. Logic like yours is what leads atrocities being swept under the rug of history by those who would prefer to keep them hidden.
                    No MountainMan, here is where you're wrong.. you don't have any right to pass judgement on the Red Army, it's commanders, soldiers.. etc. You are not from Russia and you've never been there so you don't have that right. As far as i'm concerned, you're just another smartass American who thinks he has a "right" to everything. No one is trying to sweep atrocities under the rug.. but I find it odd that you should be one to discuss the rights and wrongs of something you never witnessed.

                    Comment


                    • And blah, blah, blah, blah...blahblahblah.

                      Yeah, yeah, VDV...same old-same old...just a different day. Let's face it - there is zero chance of you ever believing anything outside of your own narrow frame of reference, and less than zero chance of it making any real difference to the world in general. It's easier for you to believe that hundreds of thousands of people who never even knew each other all told exactly the same lies than to accept that it isn't a perfect world, even if Stalin and the other communist leaders told you it was.

                      BTW - you have no right to pass moral judgement on those of us from the West, since you aren't one of us, right? And since you aren't from here...how can you possibly judge the West or its history? So, by your own logic, what we say about our history has to be the truth.

                      Don't you just hate it when that happens?

                      "Rave on, Bullwinkle. You've got your story...and I've got the truth."

                      Kurt Russell in Tango and Cash

                      "What's next?"

                      Martin Sheen, as President Jeb Bartlett in West Wing.
                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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