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  • No Revision Of Great Patriotic War History, Say Experts

    * Russia * Great Patriotic War * Coverage *
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Jim H. Moreno
    I'd like to say, that indeed there is no need to revise the history of WW2. But we need to know more about historical events of that times. Shortage of info, large amount of which is still hidden in Russian archives causes lots of myths. Many myths are alive from the Cold War period when both sides tried to show their opponents in the most unpleasant ways using any "skeletons in wardrobes" paying less attention to reliability of their sources of info.
    Lots of times I heard continious myths originated from the times of the USSR. I think the same situation is on the West, but with opposite sign.
    I myself is far from revising the results of WW2 even if some politicians both in Europe, America or anywhere else are going to do this. I consider that this subject needs thorough investigation by specialists, which are free both from emotions and political engagements. Studying the history of WW2 for ~25 years, now I can say that lots of facts were so terrible and unbelievable, that hardly we'll learn everything about them. Simply because there are no documents or eye-witnesses who managed to stay alive....
    Last edited by amvas; 14 Apr 05, 08:50.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      I call bullshit, on the rape issue.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MadDog_CDN
        I call bullshit, on the rape issue.
        From that piece.

        "Other countries are harping on Soviet soldiers' alleged cruelty," Mr. Nikiforov went on. Thus, two historians, Czechia's J. Siska and Britain's E. Beaver, refer to several million German women each of whom came through repeated rapes by military occupiers. "Those historians have no leg to stand on. First, there is no documentary proof of the facts. Second, the outrages could never take that scope because they implied punishment of extreme severity. No victorious soldier would risk his life for an ignominious pleasure.

        "Stalin made very tough orders concerning the treatment of German civilians. The Soviet Army acquired those days a duty totally new to the Armed Forces-to rescue and protect the population [of an occupied country]. Many eyewitnesses of those efforts survive to this day
        Emphasis is mine.

        Sadly there is massive eyewitness evidence for this. If the Institute of Military History don't want to admit it then that's up to them, but methinks they protest too much
        Signing out.

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        • #5
          I suppose we should all at least try to act surprised when the Russians insist that a major portion of WWII never happpened. After all, the Japanese have the same problem with their history during the same war. It's always easier to lie than to tell the truth.

          When the Allies occupied Berlin, members of the War Crimes Commission documented over 300,000 rapes of German women in that region alone before they stoppped counting. The two most hated German words, and the only two words most Russians ever learned, were "Frau komme" - "woman come".

          Source: My father was a member of the administrative staff of the Nuremberg Tribunal, and thus had access to the records of the War Crimes personnel.

          Making the statement that victorious soldiers would never risk themselves by committing rape is indeed bullsh*t. What risk?

          News Flash: Yesterday, in response to numerous queries from the UN, President Bush confirmed that the United States of America was never actually in Europe during WWII. "Biggest case of mass delusion I ever saw..." the President is quoted as saying in response to some European claims to have seen American soldiers abroad during that period.

          "Truth varies."
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MountainMan
            I suppose we should all at least try to act surprised when the Russians insist that a major portion of WWII never happpened. After all, the Japanese have the same problem with their history during the same war. It's always easier to lie than to tell the truth.

            When the Allies occupied Berlin, members of the War Crimes Commission documented over 300,000 rapes of German women in that region alone before they stoppped counting. The two most hated German words, and the only two words most Russians ever learned, were "Frau komme" - "woman come".

            Source: My father was a member of the administrative staff of the Nuremberg Tribunal, and thus had access to the records of the War Crimes personnel.

            Making the statement that victorious soldiers would never risk themselves by committing rape is indeed bullsh*t. What risk?

            News Flash: Yesterday, in response to numerous queries from the UN, President Bush confirmed that the United States of America was never actually in Europe during WWII. "Biggest case of mass delusion I ever saw..." the President is quoted as saying in response to some European claims to have seen American soldiers abroad during that period.

            "Truth varies."
            What you don't seem to understand is that all of these claims and stories are just propaganda that we invented/created/falsified to make the Soviets look bad.
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            • #7
              Look this

              http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11524

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Andrey
                Hello Andrey,

                My point is that no matter what facts or opinions we give that the Soviets/Russians did something wrong, you will always say that it is a Western lie. Even if we have someone that is an eyewitness to the act or someone that was raped/beaten/robbed/whatever by a Russian solier, you can always claim that the person was lying just to make you guys look bad. We cannot prove that they are not lying BUT you cannot prove that they are.

                Here is a simple question for you: Did any Soviet/Russian soldier commit any atrocity/rape/do anything wrong during WW2 to a soldier or civilian?
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Psycho1943
                  Hello Andrey,

                  My point is that no matter what facts or opinions we give that the Soviets/Russians did something wrong, you will always say that it is a Western lie. Even if we have someone that is an eyewitness to the act or someone that was raped/beaten/robbed/whatever by a Russian solier, you can always claim that the person was lying just to make you guys look bad. We cannot prove that they are not lying BUT you cannot prove that they are.
                  There is the term of "presumption of innocense". Anyone is considered non-guilty before there are proofs that he is guilty.

                  Example - one person speaks about another one: "You are criminal." In this case that person who is blamed to be a criminal must not to prove that he is innocent. In this case that person who makes such a declaration must to prove his words.

                  If the first person has no proofs of his statement so the second person is considered innocent and the words of the first person are considered slander.

                  If the Westerners speak about mass Soviet atrocities in Germany THEY must to give the proofs of it and NOT THE RUSSIANS must to give proofs that the Soviet soldiers didn't do mass atrocities in Germany.

                  Is it understandable enough?

                  If Beevor gives the digit of 2,000,000 raped women HE must to give the proofs of it. The evidences of 10, 50, 100, 1000 raped women are not the enough basis to speak about 2,000,000 raped women, it is only the evidence of the rape of the 10, 50, 100, 1000 women. If 100 soldiers of a division made bad thing it doesn't mean that the other 10,000 men of the division also did bad things. (The ratio of 100:10000 is only an example, I have no concrete digits)

                  Is it understandable enough?

                  If anyone doesn't know HOW to prove the facts of mass atrocities let he has to look HOW the Allies searched the proofs of the German atrocities in WWII and what evidences were used for it.

                  If the Soviet and Russian historians HAVE NO concrete digits of atrocities (sometimes it is impossible to count something, how to count the amount of rapes now if nobody counted such facts in 1945 and didn't make such researches a few years later?) so they do no speak the digits. They speak what they know: Yes, some cases of atrocities were but their amount was small and the Soviet command stopped it quickly. They speak what they know: The Western opinion about mass atrocities has no serious proofs and contradicts with the data which the Soviet/Rusian side has.

                  Here is a simple question for you: Did any Soviet/Russian soldier commit any atrocity/rape/do anything wrong during WW2 to a soldier or civilian?
                  Yes, see above.

                  I want to add again - look firstly the thread link on which I gaved to you.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Andrey
                    There is the term of "presumption of innocense". Anyone is considered non-guilty before there are proofs that he is guilty.

                    Example - one person speaks about another one: "You are criminal." In this case that person who is blamed to be a criminal must not to prove that he is innocent. In this case that person who makes such a declaration must to prove his words.

                    If the first person has no proofs of his statement so the second person is considered innocent and the words of the first person are considered slander.

                    If the Westerners speak about mass Soviet atrocities in Germany THEY must to give the proofs of it and NOT THE RUSSIANS must to give proofs that the Soviet soldiers didn't do mass atrocities in Germany.

                    Is it understandable enough?

                    If Beevor gives the digit of 2,000,000 raped women HE must to give the proofs of it. The evidences of 10, 50, 100, 1000 raped women are not the enough basis to speak about 2,000,000 raped women, it is only the evidence of the rape of the 10, 50, 100, 1000 women. If 100 soldiers of a division made bad thing it doesn't mean that the other 10,000 men of the division also did bad things. (The ratio of 100:10000 is only an example, I have no concrete digits)

                    Is it understandable enough?

                    If anyone doesn't know HOW to prove the facts of mass atrocities let he has to look HOW the Allies searched the proofs of the German atrocities in WWII and what evidences were used for it.

                    If the Soviet and Russian historians HAVE NO concrete digits of atrocities (sometimes it is impossible to count something, how to count the amount of rapes now if nobody counted such facts in 1945 and didn't make such researches a few years later?) so they do no speak the digits. They speak what they know: Yes, some cases of atrocities were but their amount was small and the Soviet command stopped it quickly. They speak what they know: The Western opinion about mass atrocities has no serious proofs and contradicts with the data which the Soviet/Rusian side has.



                    Yes, see above.

                    I want to add again - look firstly the thread link on which I gaved to you.
                    Yeah I understand innocent until proven guilty. How do you explain the numerous women that say they were raped by Russian soldiers? Maybe it isn't 2 million. I don't know how many actually reported or where the people get the numbers they give. However, many women apparently did come forward. I don't know what happened because I was not there. I have to go by what is reported. This is what is reported though:

                    A large number of women say they were raped by Russian soldiers. The Western people say it happened and you say that is false because your country says it is not true. Isn't it even slightly possible that your country might want to cover up anything like that? The Nazis did things like that. Communist China has done the same. I am sure the US has done things that we haven't heard about.

                    I don't have a problem with the Russians at all. You guys did an incredible job defending your country from the invading Germans and their allies. The only thing that bothers me is whenever someone says anything at all about your country, if it can be taken in any way negatively (even a very slight negative comment) you complain about how the Western world is wrong about your country. There are bad people in every country and they do bad things. We have people that have done horrible things in the US military but I will not jump to defend my country just because someone criticizes it. That is why you get so many posts against your comments because nobody can say anything, however small, that criticizes Russia in any way.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Psycho1943
                      Yeah I understand innocent until proven guilty. How do you explain the numerous women that say they were raped by Russian soldiers? Maybe it isn't 2 million. I don't know how many actually reported or where the people get the numbers they give. However, many women apparently did come forward. I don't know what happened because I was not there. I have to go by what is reported. This is what is reported though:

                      A large number of women say they were raped by Russian soldiers. The Western people say it happened and you say that is false because your country says it is not true. Isn't it even slightly possible that your country might want to cover up anything like that? The Nazis did things like that. Communist China has done the same. I am sure the US has done things that we haven't heard about.

                      I don't have a problem with the Russians at all. You guys did an incredible job defending your country from the invading Germans and their allies. The only thing that bothers me is whenever someone says anything at all about your country, if it can be taken in any way negatively (even a very slight negative comment) you complain about how the Western world is wrong about your country. There are bad people in every country and they do bad things. We have people that have done horrible things in the US military but I will not jump to defend my country just because someone criticizes it. That is why you get so many posts against your comments because nobody can say anything, however small, that criticizes Russia in any way.
                      Great comments, about ctricism in general and dealing with it, not about the person who it is directed too, i am unaware of any examples so its not my place for opinion on that.

                      But we could all take a lesson from the overall aspects of your post.

                      Then again, not much is leveled at my country so it maybe hard to understand, but i have my fair share of run ins with people not handling my criticisms well.
                      Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Psycho1943
                        Yeah I understand innocent until proven guilty. How do you explain the numerous women that say they were raped by Russian soldiers?
                        We have some facts when German women SPOKE that they were raped.

                        But...
                        1. If a woman speak that she was raped by a man it doesn't mean that it is 100% true. She could lie for some reasons (look link on the old thread, I already spoke more about it) and it is necessary to make additional investigations to confirm her words.
                        2. What do you mean numerous? 100? 500? 1000? Who did count them?

                        Maybe it isn't 2 million. I don't know how many actually reported or where the people get the numbers they give.
                        In the thread on which I gave the link we discussed what were proofs of that digit. And it looks like this digit has no proofs, it is only Beevor's digit.

                        However, many women apparently did come forward. I don't know what happened because I was not there. I have to go by what is reported.
                        Correct position. Analise WHAT is reported.

                        This is what is reported though:

                        A large number of women say they were raped by Russian soldiers.
                        The Western people say it happened and you say that is false because your country says it is not true.
                        You have the distorted image what my country speaks. I repeat my country disagree with the term of MASS atrocities, my country agrees with little amount of atrocities.

                        Isn't it even slightly possible that your country might want to cover up anything like that? The Nazis did things like that. Communist China has done the same. I am sure the US has done things that we haven't heard about.
                        My country said enough true about bad things which were made. But it doesn't mean that my country must agree with any nonsense which someone speaks about my country.

                        I don't have a problem with the Russians at all. You guys did an incredible job defending your country from the invading Germans and their allies. The only thing that bothers me is whenever someone says anything at all about your country, if it can be taken in any way negatively (even a very slight negative comment) you complain about how the Western world is wrong about your country.
                        Ans what if the Western World is really wrong about my country? I explained why I think so.

                        There are bad people in every country and they do bad things. We have people that have done horrible things in the US military but I will not jump to defend my country just because someone criticizes it. That is why you get so many posts against your comments because nobody can say anything, however small, that criticizes Russia in any way.
                        Did you hear about the tragedy of the village of May-Lay (in Russia it is famous as Song-Mi) during the Vietnam War when a group of US soldiers murdered Vietnamese civilians including many children?

                        What will you say if you hear that someone wil speak that THE MOST PART of US soldiers in Vietnam murdered civilians and if that person will use the example of May-Lay for the proof of it?

                        The situation is the same with the Soviet atrocities in Germany. Some bad guys made some bad things but the Western propaganda describes it like THE MOST PART of the Soviet soldiers did it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Temujin
                          Great comments, about ctricism in general and dealing with it, not about the person who it is directed too, i am unaware of any examples so its not my place for opinion on that.

                          But we could all take a lesson from the overall aspects of your post.

                          Then again, not much is leveled at my country so it maybe hard to understand, but i have my fair share of run ins with people not handling my criticisms well.
                          Well, I hear if someone pisses you folks off you mail them one of your more deadly critters.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MadDog_CDN
                            Well, I hear if someone pisses you folks off you mail them one of your more deadly critters.
                            Its not an accident they prefer to live in letterboxes
                            Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi

                              What is the famous quote, History is written by the victors?

                              Cheers

                              Karl

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