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  • #76
    Kind of an awkward position you've gotten yourself into - on the one hand, you would like to discount everything anyone else says, but on the other hand, you would like them to believe you. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Your statements carry no more credibility than anyone else's - the same amount you grant others - which is to say...none. .
    Nothing awkward, it's actually very simple: just about everything you've written here is either a mistake, falsification or flat out lie -- my goal is merely to disprove and counter the constant stream of stereotype-based BS you write.

    Sorry you hate the West so much, but if Putin has his way, you may have the opportunity to once again live gloriously under hardline Communism as you did before. You can only hope...and we will all hope for you.
    He.. he.. oh so now Putin is to blame? You sure have alot to say about subjects you don't know anything about. Could you be any more predictable?: "He doesn't agree with what I think so he must he a hardline communist".. Thats a really dumb excuse.. Speaking of ideologies, i'd like to see where your glorious "Democracy" takes you in about 50 years or so..

    What you fail to understand is that the country you live in is run by almost the same exact type of authoritarian government as the Soviet Union was: 99% of the population is controlled by a select handful pulling all the strings anyway they want. The Media is controlled by the government, people's basic rights are being restricted.. etc. It's really sad that you don't have the foresight to see whats unfolding right before your eyes. Remember, no empire lasts forever..

    Why is his source reliable and ours is not?
    Another simple answer: today, researchers in Russia have better access(more than any western author/historian) to previously closed archives like TsAMO for example - so alot of the information is based on newly declassified materials. Having read alot of the East Front books considered "definitive" in the west(Erickson, Glantz.. etc), I can safely say that the books coming out in Russia today are years ahead. It's a shame that hardly any of them ever get translated into English.

    Comment


    • #77
      VDV,

      I am curious as to how the Red Army was able to keep its frontline units up to strength. What can you, or one of the Russians here, tell me about the process? The American Army had fits getting enough Infantry to the front. In 1944 there were lots of surprized people in the Repple Depples about to go into the Infantry.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #78
        So, I wonder how valid this argument is.

        The Western allies did contribute, and I do believe there was negative propaganda on both sides, I have seen the western sides.

        The russians were supposedly heartless, throwing troops away because they had more, just as the allied commnaders made the decision to continue using the Sherman tank, which was inferior to the armor the Germans fielded.

        In the Pacific threatre we see some pretty astounding casaualty figures, 18,000 killed or wounded in Iwo Jima for the Americans, in 30 days.

        Which battle or operation did the western allies mount that even came close to size of an operation on the Eastern front?

        Comment


        • #79
          I think both sides tends to be excessively dismissive of the other in assessing the contributions of the war. In the case of the western powers there is a tendency to see the western allies effort in Europe through distorted lens and overstate the western contribution. In America this is a product of a couple of historic facts in addition to the natural tendency of those in combat to need to see their contribution through inflated vision. In America much of the myth of the war grew up in the periode 1948 to 1955. Histories written at this time of the war in Europe tended to rely solely on German memoirs for the history of the Eastern Front. It must be remembered that this was also the period of McCarthyism in America and publishing academic always denigrated Soviet contribution to avoid be haul up before the House Unamerican Activities Committee. The distortion of these two lenses created a view of the Soviet contribution that was severely distorted and is only now beginning to fade as source Russian documentation becomes available. The other fact Russians due not understand is that in the west, particularly in Britain and the US, Stalin was seen as just as evil as Hitler. Indeed I just recently went into a wax museum and Stalin was grouped with Hitler, Tojo and Musselini and not with Roosevelt, Churchill and DeGaull in the WW II diorama. My bet is if you stopped Americans under 30 on the street and randomly asked what side Russia was on in WWII you would get a fair number who would group them with the Axis. A sign of the failure of our education system.

          On the other hand, I believe Russians tend to trivialize the war in Asia and the Pacific. My wife is Russian and well educated in Moscow schools including the Moscow Institute of Economics. She was quite surprized when she saw something about Pearl Harbor and that the US had gone to war with both Germany and Japan in December of 1941, She had been taught we entered the war in 1944. Her immediate reaction was that we did not do any fighting until 1944, just sent supplies. I am still not sure she believes we were actively fighting all that time. The effort of the British in Burma, the Australians crossing the Stanley Range in New Guinea or of the many American island landings was equal in intensity if not duration to engagement in the East.
          Boston Strong!

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by JSMoss
            I think both sides tends to be excessively dismissive of the other in assessing the contributions of the war. In the case of the western powers there is a tendency to see the western allies effort in Europe through distorted lens and overstate the western contribution. In America this is a product of a couple of historic facts in addition to the natural tendency of those in combat to need to see their contribution through inflated vision. In America much of the myth of the war grew up in the periode 1948 to 1955. Histories written at this time of the war in Europe tended to rely solely on German memoirs for the history of the Eastern Front. It must be remembered that this was also the period of McCarthyism in America and publishing academic always denigrated Soviet contribution to avoid be haul up before the House Unamerican Activities Committee. The distortion of these two lenses created a view of the Soviet contribution that was severely distorted and is only now beginning to fade as source Russian documentation becomes available. The other fact Russians do not understand is that in the west, particularly in Britain and the US, Stalin was seen as just as evil as Hitler. Indeed I just recently went into a wax museum and Stalin was grouped with Hitler, Tojo and Musselini and not with Roosevelt, Churchill and DeGaull in the WW II diorama. My bet is if you stopped Americans under 30 on the street and randomly asked what side Russia was on in WWII you would get a fair number who would group them with the Axis. A sign of the failure of our education system.

            On the other hand, I believe Russians tend to trivialize the war in Asia and the Pacific. My wife is Russian and well educated in Moscow schools including the Moscow Institute of Economics. She was quite surprized when she saw something about Pearl Harbor and that the US had gone to war with both Germany and Japan in December of 1941, She had been taught we entered the war in 1944. Her immediate reaction was that we did not do any fighting until 1944, just sent supplies. I am still not sure she believes we were actively fighting all that time. The effort of the British in Burma, the Australians crossing the Stanley Range in New Guinea or of the many American island landings was equal in intensity if not duration to engagement in the East.
            I know, understand and agree all what you said.

            Those are the Westerners who don't know and understand it. Look on the nonsense which MM speaks.
            Last edited by Andrey; 30 Apr 05, 19:47.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Andrey
              I know, understand and agree all what you said.

              Those are the Westerners who don't know and understand it. Look on the nonsense which MM speaks.
              McCathyism is alive and well including among current senior administration officials. Unfortunately we may have to wait another 100 years before people can discuss this academically and not emotionally.
              Boston Strong!

              Comment


              • #82
                Andrey,

                Some of us are very interested in hearing what some of the Russians have to say. The last few years have brought a lot of Red Army memoir type stories to the US. I like to read them.

                I am a student of World War 2 and other military history. I may not always be right, but I will listen to what you have to say. I have some sources I get most of my stuff from, like old magazines. I can try to photocopy from them and send some, if you see something I say that does not match what you have been told.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Pruitt
                  Andrey,

                  Some of us are very interested in hearing what some of the Russians have to say. The last few years have brought a lot of Red Army memoir type stories to the US. I like to read them.

                  I am a student of World War 2 and other military history. I may not always be right, but I will listen to what you have to say.
                  yes, I see that you are not so diehard as MM. It is possible to speak with you. It looks like you try to find truth while MM tries to prove only American perspective.

                  I am not able to write long messages right now but I'll answer you later (about Estonian freedom fighters and about some other themes).

                  I have some sources I get most of my stuff from, like old magazines. I can try to photocopy from them and send some, if you see something I say that does not match what you have been told.
                  I don't understand what you are speaking about...

                  Examples of Western propaganda?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    andrey could you not say western propaganda why not the western press etc ,it makes us all sound like people of a police state ,for me in scotland its not ..
                    owner of the yahoo group for WW1 ,WW2 and Modern TO&Es
                    (Tables of organisation & equipment or Unit of action )

                    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Andrey

                      MM does not speak drivel, rather he expresses himself very well.

                      He presents history as most of us in the west have been taught it, with very little information about the Eastern front.

                      You present your side just as forcefully and adamantly as MM, just you argue the Eastern side.

                      Correct me if I am wrong but I seriously believe there were no battles on the scale of the Eastern Front in the west, and in the Pacific the numbers speak for themselves, on Iwo Jima alone, the US took 24,000 casualties in 30 days, and killed 22,000 Japanese. That is not a good number as the Japanese fought until to the end and only 210 were cpatured, a horrible ratio and makes me question if the Western Allies had to fight on the scale the Eastern front was would their casualty figures be as high?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Andrey,

                        A while back I saw an example of something that was contradicted by a magazine article I had read. I collect many military magazines, some with games attached. One such article was on the subject of Soviet Industries that were transported East before the Germans reached them. The cruxt of the article was the Soviet Union had a whole seperate group of industrial cities built during the period before the war that were pretty unknown to the West and ie the Germans. These were located East of the Urals and Siberia. An example was the industrial complex at Magnetorosk. There were a number of other areas mentioned, some were at one time considered "secret cities" and were involved in military production.

                        Sure the transport of these industries was a great accomplishment, but it is hard for me to see all those KVs and T-34s coming from factories that were re-located without roofs. I don't see much production getting done in terrible weather, no matter how well motivated.

                        I would be glad to dig into my collection to find it again and share it.

                        Command Magazine was a very good source of unusual military knowledge. Where else would one find an article on Luftwaffe Field Divisions? It also had a good article on why the Germans had trouble with taking over Soviet railways. (It wasn't the track width, it was the distance between water towers and train repair depots).

                        Just trying to show where I get stuff. When I post I try not to get personal and bring up what I read. If it is my opinion, I label it as such.I can show where I got my stuff I type. If you are interested, I thought I would offer to share.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by MadDog_CDN
                          Andrey

                          MM does not speak drivel, rather he expresses himself very well.

                          He presents history as most of us in the west have been taught it, with very little information about the Eastern front.

                          You present your side just as forcefully and adamantly as MM, just you argue the Eastern side.
                          The Western view of the history of WWII is incorrect very often. (It were you who wrote that your son took some Western books about WWII and those books practically didn't describe Soviet efforts.) So to speak extreme Western view of the Cold War time means to speak drivel. Time changed and Russia isn't American enemy now, and it is necessary to forget the Western drivel of the Cold War time.

                          The problem is that many Westerners do not suppose that they heard and read Cold War's drivel about Soviet efforts in WWII. They suppose that there was no Western propaganda because the Western propaganda spoke that there was no Western propaganda - .

                          So MM speaks drivel about USSR, Soviet soldiers and Soviet efforts in WWI. It is MY expression from his words. It is I who see WWII events otherwise on the base of all my knowledge about WWII. But, of course, for THE WESTERNERS MM's drivel looks OK as he speaks the perspective which is usual in the West. And, of course, MY opinion is strange for the Westerners who heard the other opinion for all their life.

                          Correct me if I am wrong but I seriously believe there were no battles on the scale of the Eastern Front in the west, and in the Pacific the numbers speak for themselves, on Iwo Jima alone, the US took 24,000 casualties in 30 days, and killed 22,000 Japanese. That is not a good number as the Japanese fought until to the end and only 210 were cpatured, a horrible ratio and makes me question if the Western Allies had to fight on the scale the Eastern front was would their casualty figures be as high?
                          Do you speak it for me? -

                          I remember that I wrote about one "huge" battle in Northern Africa. And in the end the author wrote that the British lost one and a half thousands men in that battle. I was amazed by so little digit. Imagine, according the German data the Red Army lost 600,000 POWs only in the region of Kiev in August-September of 1941!!! Compare the scale of the digits...

                          But THE WESTERN PROPAGANDA (it existed in past and it exists now!) doesn't concentrate attention on the statistics of WWII.

                          And MM and his followers speak that the huge casualties of the Red Army is the result of bad tactics of the Soviet Command and not the result of the huge scale of battles. They suppose that the US or British Army lost many times less men if they fought in USSR instead if the Red Army. They do not draw attention to the proved fact that the most part of Viermacht fought in USSR and was crushed there.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by thomas.tmcc
                            andrey could you not say western propaganda why not the western press etc ,it makes us all sound like people of a police state ,for me in scotland its not ..
                            Don't you believe in the existence of the Western propaganda?

                            Police state... Look on the current US and you will see a real police state where people are under the state control under the pretence of the necessity to fight against terrorism. Look on how US "independent" mass media described Iraq War.
                            Last edited by Andrey; 01 May 05, 21:41.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Pruitt
                              Andrey,

                              A while back I saw an example of something that was contradicted by a magazine article I had read. I collect many military magazines, some with games attached.
                              I warn you to read all the Western info about the Eastern Front and USSR in WWII very carefully.

                              One such article was on the subject of Soviet Industries that were transported East before the Germans reached them. The cruxt of the article was the Soviet Union had a whole seperate group of industrial cities built during the period before the war that were pretty unknown to the West and ie the Germans. These were located East of the Urals and Siberia. An example was the industrial complex at Magnetorosk.
                              Yes, the Eastern Part of USSR contained some industrial complexes. But before WWII the most part of the Soviet industry was in the Western part of USSR.

                              Let's use Omsk as an example.

                              The most part of Omsk's industry was evacuated here during WWII. Before WWII Omsk was not a large city but after WWII Omsk became a large center of military industry.

                              My grandfather was a Ukrainian. He arrived in Omsk in 1941 from Zaporozhie (Ukraine) together with the military plant which produced engines for military planes.

                              There were a number of other areas mentioned, some were at one time considered "secret cities" and were involved in military production.
                              Hmm... As I know "the secret cities" were organized after WWII and were related with a nuclear weapon and missiles.

                              I never heard that such cities were before WWII or in the first years of WWII.

                              Sure the transport of these industries was a great accomplishment, but it is hard for me to see all those KVs and T-34s coming from factories that were re-located without roofs. I don't see much production getting done in terrible weather, no matter how well motivated.
                              You have a distorted image of the events. Plants without roofs, terrible weather....

                              Situation was some other. The re-located plants operated like all other plants, the workers worked in usual buildings with roofs. Everyone understood that it is difficult for workers to work in bad conditions.

                              When the plants were relocating the Red Army needed their production. And the problem was that the most part of plants were relocating silultaneously. For example, if the most part of plants producing engines for tanks or planes were relocating so how to produce tanks and planes?

                              Each day when a plant was non-operational could be reason of military disaster. The Red Army very needed tanks, planes, shells and other military equipment. And everyone understood it.

                              So often the plants began to operate before their buildings were finished completely. It doesn't mean that the plants operated without roofs. It means that the workers began to work and to produce their production which was very useful in the frontline while builders were making walls and roofs for the buildings of a plant. So workers worked in bad conditions only for a short initial time period of the operation of a plant in new place.

                              There was a famous Soviet slogan of WWII: "Все для фронта, все для победы!" It means "Let's do all what we can do for frontline troops, for the Victory".

                              Everyone - managers, engineers, ordinary workers - understood that their work is necessary for the surviving of the country. They were ready to work for a few days and even for a few weeks in bad conditions but to give their production for the Red Army.

                              For example, the following scenes were in that time.

                              A general manager of a plant gathered the workers and said them: "Comrades! I understood that it is very difficult for you. But the enemy is nearly Moscow. Our soldiers fight furiously and they need the planes which we produce. I got an order from Moscow to begin the production of planes as soon as possible. And I promised to do all what is possible. So I ask you to begin a work before our buildings will be finished completely. I ask you to begin a work in the spite of the large frost. We shall provide you by hot food, we shall provide you by places for heating. Endure a few days! Remember, each our plane approaches the Victory. Soldiers in the frontline believe that you will do all what you can for our victory and we have no to betray their trust.

                              Let's do all what we can do for frontline troops, for the Victory! Enemy will be crushed, the Victory will bo ours!"

                              I would be glad to dig into my collection to find it again and share it.

                              Command Magazine was a very good source of unusual military knowledge. Where else would one find an article on Luftwaffe Field Divisions? It also had a good article on why the Germans had trouble with taking over Soviet railways. (It wasn't the track width, it was the distance between water towers and train repair depots).

                              Just trying to show where I get stuff. When I post I try not to get personal and bring up what I read. If it is my opinion, I label it as such.I can show where I got my stuff I type. If you are interested, I thought I would offer to share.

                              Pruitt
                              Thanks for your offer. Right now I have a lot of info but I have no time to read it. There is the Russian site militera.lib.ru, where there are a few hundreds of military books in Russian, they are FREE for download. I'll remember

                              But if you want to share your info, you can upload it here, in forum.

                              If you want to discuss your articles, you can transfer them in text (it is better than to upload photos of the text) and make a thread with your info.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                seems to me this arguement is just gonna run and run with the westerners convinced that most histories were written fairly well balanced,with the russians seeming to have a complex about western views regarding most as western coldwar propaganda whilst the russians here will continue to say western sources are wrong/pro german/cold war drivel etc and russian sources are 100% correct and reliable

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