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The Soviet navy 1939-41

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  • The Soviet navy 1939-41

    Hi.
    Can anyone tell me where to find info re. the Fleet during 1939-40. Mainly interested in finding info re. the Northern and Baltic fleets. Individual ships, command, tasks and plan of action before Barbarossa.
    Thanks

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sturlungur
    Hi.
    Can anyone tell me where to find info re. the Fleet during 1939-40. Mainly interested in finding info re. the Northern and Baltic fleets. Individual ships, command, tasks and plan of action before Barbarossa.
    Thanks
    I have almost full listing of all ships of all fleets and its fate. But I can't type such an amount of info as it's a huge book(s)

    Not sure that I have some plans of actions et. al.
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • #3
      These are the figures of "Itämeren laivasto", I think it is the same as "Baltic fleet" fall 1939:

      2 battleships ,Marat and Oktjabrskaja Revolutsija
      1 cruiser, Kirov
      17 destroyers
      7 torpedoboats
      52 submarines
      17 gunboats
      40 motortorpedoboats
      4 mineship
      48 minerammers
      60 guardships

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Käki.
        These figures are of great help.
        My intrest is finding the size of the Northern fleet during winter 1939 - winter 1940. If it was powerful enough to make its presence felt in the N-Atlantic at that time.
        I've also seen some reference to ship canal from the Baltic to the ports of Murmansk and Polyarny. How useful was this canal and how big ships could pass through it?

        Good luck in finding some way of getting the navy info on your site AMVAS

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Käki
          These are the figures of "Itämeren laivasto", I think it is the same as "Baltic fleet" fall 1939:

          2 battleships ,Marat and Oktjabrskaja Revolutsija
          1 cruiser, Kirov
          17 destroyers
          7 torpedoboats
          52 submarines
          17 gunboats
          40 motortorpedoboats
          4 mineship
          48 minerammers
          60 guardships

          I'll try to check this figures....

          I consider that at least you forgot "Maxim Gorkiy" cruiser
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sturlungur
            Thanks Käki.
            These figures are of great help.
            My intrest is finding the size of the Northern fleet during winter 1939 - winter 1940. If it was powerful enough to make its presence felt in the N-Atlantic at that time.
            I've also seen some reference to ship canal from the Baltic to the ports of Murmansk and Polyarny. How useful was this canal and how big ships could pass through it?

            Good luck in finding some way of getting the navy info on your site AMVAS
            The Soviet Northern Fleet was too weak even in 1945.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Andrey
              The Soviet Northern Fleet was too weak even in 1945.
              Yes. It was tiny, even despite Stalin's grandiose dreams of the Soviet Union becoming a naval power.

              But did the Nortern Fleet have something bigger than a destroyer? And could it send some ships from the Baltic Fleet up North to reinforce the Northern Fleet in the beginning of the war?

              Comment


              • #8
                How? I don't see how any Soviet ship could leave the Baltic, past hostile water controlled by the Luftwaffe and even getting shelled from German army forces in Denmark. Western forces except the RAf were blocked as well. At least in 1945 the Soviet Navy was able to move west into the Baltic in support of the Red Army and score some successes. Though again the Kriegsmarine managed to help their own forces and to pull out from East Prussia. I hope to be corrected for any mistakes.

                I think in the Black Sea the Soviet fleet had the most room for manuever and weak opposition (except the Luftwaffe) at sea.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by joea
                  How? I don't see how any Soviet ship could leave the Baltic, past hostile water controlled by the Luftwaffe and even getting shelled from German army forces in Denmark. Western forces except the RAf were blocked as well. At least in 1945 the Soviet Navy was able to move west into the Baltic in support of the Red Army and score some successes. Though again the Kriegsmarine managed to help their own forces and to pull out from East Prussia. I hope to be corrected for any mistakes.

                  I think in the Black Sea the Soviet fleet had the most room for manuever and weak opposition (except the Luftwaffe) at sea.
                  True, after Barbarossa was launched.
                  I'm mainly interested in the period autumn 1939 - spring 1941 when the Hitler-Stalin pact was in effect. Due to the pact the Soviet Navy got delivered the battlecruiser Lützow, though badly damaged.
                  I saw once a canal from Leningrad mentioned that ships could travel up to the Murmansk area. I'm looking for a way to verify that information and if it existed when it was working and how big ships could pass the canal.
                  It would also help if someone could mention some books/sites that could maybe have some info.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sturlungur
                    I saw once a canal from Leningrad mentioned that ships could travel up to the Murmansk area. I'm looking for a way to verify that information and if it existed when it was working and how big ships could pass the canal.
                    It would also help if someone could mention some books/sites that could maybe have some info.
                    As I suppose Belomorkanal ("The Channel to the White Sea") was made for MERCHANT ships. I doubt that it was deep enough for being used by military ships, I doubt that even a destroyer could use that channel.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sturlungur
                      Yes. It was tiny, even despite Stalin's grandiose dreams of the Soviet Union becoming a naval power.
                      Did Stalin say that he mentioned the Northern Sea Fleet - :-)?

                      But did the Nortern Fleet have something bigger than a destroyer? And could it send some ships from the Baltic Fleet up North to reinforce the Northern Fleet in the beginning of the war?
                      1. Look on the Baltic Fleet - in 1939 it had only 1-2 cruisers and 2 archaic battleships, which had made in Tsarist time.

                      So which ships "larger than a destroyer" could be transferred in the Northern Fleet from Baltic Fleet? Do you mean to send main forces of the Baltic Fleet in the Northern Fleet? But which ships will remain in the Baltic?

                      2. For which reason USSR had to send ships in the Northern Fleet if to speak about the Finnish War of 1939-40?

                      - The alone action that ships could do it that war was a shooting of a coast, it was only a auxilary action. So why to spend large money on transferring of military ships for such a little important action.

                      - Main actions of the Finnish War were actions in the Karelian Istmus but even there the military ships were not used widely (had no targets or it was too dangerous for them).

                      - I do not remember that there were large actions in the region of Murmansk in 1939-40 so there was no necessity for large ships to be there.

                      3. How was it possible to make it technically?

                      - The time of the war was considered a pair of weeks when the Red Army began the invasion in Finland. Even in the conditions of the unsuccessful beginning of the Finnish War its duration was three months. I doubt that the transferring of a large ship from the Baltic to the Murmansk and the preparing of this ship to actions will last less time.

                      - The Fleet is not only a group of some military ships. The Fleet is a system of military ships and of all the other actions and structures that provide actions of ships. First of all, the Fleet has to have a good Naval Base with supporting abilities: with the ability to repair ships; with many stores with the enough amount of ammo, spare parts, fuel, food, water, and lubricating oil for operating of the Fleet; with the enough amount of barracks for sailors and of houses for the sea officers and their families and so on. Murmansk had no enough infrastructure for maintaining of a large Fleet in 1939 and even in 1945. All such an infrastructure, which later let for the Soviet Northern Fleet to become the strongest Fleet of USSR in of the time of the Cold War, was made after the WWII. In 1939 Murmank was not ready to be a Naval Base for a large Fleet so the Soviet Northern Fleet had no any large naval base.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sturlungur
                        Yes. It was tiny, even despite Stalin's grandiose dreams of the Soviet Union becoming a naval power.

                        But did the Nortern Fleet have something bigger than a destroyer? And could it send some ships from the Baltic Fleet up North to reinforce the Northern Fleet in the beginning of the war?
                        The Northern Fleet has nothing more powerful than destroyers until 1944 when it recieved "Arkhangelsk" old battleship from Britain for lend-lease. But it was never been used...
                        Also modern destroyers of the Northern Fleet ("7" and "7U" projects) had low navigability
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sturlungur
                          True, after Barbarossa was launched.
                          I'm mainly interested in the period autumn 1939 - spring 1941 when the Hitler-Stalin pact was in effect. Due to the pact the Soviet Navy got delivered the battlecruiser Lützow, though badly damaged.
                          I saw once a canal from Leningrad mentioned that ships could travel up to the Murmansk area. I'm looking for a way to verify that information and if it existed when it was working and how big ships could pass the canal.
                          It would also help if someone could mention some books/sites that could maybe have some info.
                          From Leningrad there were only submarines and maybe destroyers to be moved to the North. They did used channels....

                          He-he..Most unbelievable trip though had M-32 submarine.... It managed to make a trip...through desert

                          Very interesting boat....

                          Most detailed book is "Encyclopedia of boats" and "Encyclopedia of Surface Ships" by Platonov. they are still available in our bookshops.
                          I'm not sure you can read Russian...But indeed very interesting books....
                          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for the info guys.

                            I found a detailed article on the net referring to Stanlin's Navy:

                            Milan L. Hauner: STALIN’S BIG-FLEET PROGRAM.
                            The author argues that one of Stalin's main reasons for the Hitler-Stalin pact could be Stalin's demand for naval technology.
                            Hauner mentions that the "first warships to join theNorthern
                            Fleet had been sent from Leningrad by the Baltic–White Sea Canal, completed in the summer of 1933 by slave workers." But he does not mention what ships (destroyers?) or when.
                            The reason Stalin went ahead with the shipbuilding task could be from 3 reasons: 1) partly megalomania 2) the ongoing naval-arms race - fearing surprize attack from among others Germany 3) increasing the prestige of the USSR. Also the inadequecy of USSR to protect its supply columns in the Spanish Civil War was painfully obvious and could also be one of the main reasons why Stalin wanted a huge ocean going navy.
                            The Nortern fleets task was mainly "was to prevent Germany from landing troops in the Arctic and to disrupt communications in the North Atlantic."

                            So as to explain why I'm looking into this is that I'm doing a research on the strategic situation in the N-Atlantic in 1939-1941 pre Barbarossa if Britain lost control of Iceland. One of the possibilities I'm interested in is that a jealous Stalin of his fellow dictators success in the N-Atlantic would send a small group of ships from the Artic to Iceland and even further to enhance the prestige of the USSR. This is a possibility given Hauners arguments that Stalin was obsessed with increasing the prestige of the Soviet Union with naval show off.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sturlungur
                              So as to explain why I'm looking into this is that I'm doing a research on the strategic situation in the N-Atlantic in 1939-1941 pre Barbarossa if Britain lost control of Iceland.
                              The Soviet Northern Fleet was too weak and was not ready to make huge strateguc battles like it was in 1939-45 in the Northern Atlantic.

                              One of the possibilities I'm interested in is that a jealous Stalin of his fellow dictators success in the N-Atlantic would send a small group of ships from the Artic to Iceland and even further to enhance the prestige of the USSR.
                              What does it mean - "to send"? To send to peaceful tourist voyage? To send to occupy the whole Iceland? To send for naval combat against Royal Navy?

                              In 1939-41 USSR was not at war with any country so the Soviet military ships might FREE swim in the neitral waters of the Northern Atlantic so Stalin could send his ships to Iceland for a peaceful voyage as the show of the Soviet Naval Might.

                              This is a possibility given Hauners arguments that Stalin was obsessed with increasing the prestige of the Soviet Union with naval show off.
                              I suppose that the Soviet attempt to capture Iceland in 1939-41 cold be a real suicide for landing troops. Even if they could capture it as a result of a sudden attack and of the lack of defending forces they couldn't hold it as the Soviet Navy and Aircraft were not able to provide them by ammo, food, reiforcement and so on.

                              I suppose that if Britain was occupied so Iceland would be an excellent base for German U-boats for the actions in the Western Atlantic. And the Germans couldn't leave celand for Soviets. One raid of "Tirpitz" to Iceland could break all possible Soviet forces there.

                              And one raid of a pair of British or American battleships to Iceland also could breal all possible Soviet forces there.

                              Comment

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