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  • Russia and Japan

    Can you tell me something about the border clash between the USSR and Japan in mongolia. I think it was 1938 or 1939
    All warfare is based on deception.

  • #2
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Can you tell me something about the border clash between the USSR and Japan in mongolia. I think it was 1938 or 1939
    It was both in 1938 and 1939. In 1938 in Khasan lake area and in 1939 in Khalkhin-gol river area (also famous as Nomonhan conflict.

    Just now have not much time for this, but if Craig permits I upload my translated article about this.

    Now only will say that the conflict of 1939 was caused by vagueness with frontier demarcation and finished with loss of Japan after which they were not fond of ideas to attack the USSR
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      Khalkhin-gol was particularly notable because it showed that Zhukov had mastered the deep penetration and encirclement tactics of mechanised warfare early on. The germans were in fact not in any way ahead of Russia in operational thinking. As amvas points out, the Japanesse were totally unprepared to engage in this type of land warfare since they did not used massed armor but rather used their armor in a dispersed fashion as infantry support. It was this experience that lay behind Japan's determination to avoid getting involved with Russia during WWII.
      Boston Strong!

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      • #4
        What were the casualtie rates and how many soldiers were involved
        All warfare is based on deception.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by [email protected]
          What were the casualtie rates and how many soldiers were involved
          They were compatible
          See http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.c...gol/losses.htm

          It's interesting, that in air battles Japans overestimated Soviet losses in 6 times and Soviet side Japan losses in 4 times
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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          • #6
            [QUOTE=amvas]They were compatible
            See http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.c...gol/losses.htm

            It's interesting, that in air battles Japans overestimated Soviet losses in 6 times and Soviet side Japan losses in 4 times[
            Thanks a lot
            All warfare is based on deception.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by amvas
              It was both in 1938 and 1939. In 1938 in Khasan lake area and in 1939 in Khalkhin-gol river area (also famous as Nomonhan conflict.

              Just now have not much time for this, but if Craig permits I upload my translated article about this.

              Now only will say that the conflict of 1939 was caused by vagueness with frontier demarcation and finished with loss of Japan after which they were not fond of ideas to attack the USSR
              If memory serves, Khalkin-gol was Georgii Zhukov's first major success. Who could have known that he would pull Stalin's sorry bottom out of the fire on at least three occasions (Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad).
              Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
              (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JSMoss
                Khalkhin-gol was particularly notable because it showed that Zhukov had mastered the deep penetration and encirclement tactics of mechanised warfare early on. The germans were in fact not in any way ahead of Russia in operational thinking. As amvas points out, the Japanesse were totally unprepared to engage in this type of land warfare since they did not used massed armor but rather used their armor in a dispersed fashion as infantry support. It was this experience that lay behind Japan's determination to avoid getting involved with Russia during WWII.
                The Japanese were soundly defeated at Khalkhin-gol in there quest for new sources of natural resources. This defeat, combined with America's embargo ultimately forced Japan to look at conquering the Dutch East Indies to gain oil and other resources.
                Lance W.

                Peace through superior firepower.

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                • #9
                  I have read that the survivors of one Japanese division involved in the fighting was sent to easy garrison division duty to rest and rebuild at Guadacanal...but am pretty sure that is incorrect since if memory serves me well, Guadacanal was not occupied by Japan at the time.

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                  • #10
                    The most succesfull bliz of ww2, by the red army...

                    Perhaps the most succesfull bliz in the whole of ww2, was the Russian attack into Manchukuo, (where the japanese had put a puppet state with 'the last emperor at it's head'.

                    The Russians attacked, and the Japanese had a good defencive plan, but they were in no way prepared to a soviet 1945 form armoured bliz.

                    The Hero of the russian command I belive was malinovsky, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

                    There are many stories of the Russian troops deep battle tactics and the incredible speed they moved at, that completely ruined Japanese plans.

                    The end result was that the Russians liberated an area the size of Europe in something like ten days!

                    Only the dropping of the atomic bomb, stopped the advance of the russian blizkrieg.

                    Amvas or Andrey, if you know more of this please let us know, it was the most succesfull bliz of ww2 after all...
                    "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

                    If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 17poundr
                      Perhaps the most succesfull bliz in the whole of ww2, was the Russian attack into Manchukuo, (where the japanese had put a puppet state with 'the last emperor at it's head'.

                      The Russians attacked, and the Japanese had a good defencive plan, but they were in no way prepared to a soviet 1945 form armoured bliz.

                      The Hero of the russian command I belive was malinovsky, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

                      There are many stories of the Russian troops deep battle tactics and the incredible speed they moved at, that completely ruined Japanese plans.

                      The end result was that the Russians liberated an area the size of Europe in something like ten days!

                      Only the dropping of the atomic bomb, stopped the advance of the russian blizkrieg.

                      Amvas or Andrey, if you know more of this please let us know, it was the most succesfull bliz of ww2 after all...
                      It's may be strange, but Japan war of 1945 is not well documented
                      Of course, I managed to find some maps, but indeed not large amount of information available. It was brilliant operation. Soviet Armies cut Japan Manchzhurian Army like a knife. I have to note that strength of that Japan Army was ~1 mlns soldiers...
                      If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                      • #12
                        At the beginning of the war in the east by the invasion of manchuria and Korea, the Kwantung army was by far the most powerful army of Japan. But over the years, when they decided to strike down south, the best units of the army were dispatched in south-east asia. So much that in 45, even if the number of men in the Kwantung army didn't really decrease, it was but a shadow of its former self. Men were of bad fighting quality and their equipment (or lack of thereof) were really obsolete. It was still a formidable foe though, with one million men entrenched in permanent defensive positions constructed back in the 30ies and reinforced subsequently. The border between USSR and China was also really montaineous (more so than anything the Red Army had fought over throughout Europe) so that the terrain highly favored defence and not at all propice to tank warfare.
                        So that's a tribute to the soviet mastery of combined warfare at that stage of the war of having dispatched the kwantung army like they did. 10 days, that was all it took.

                        Soviets: 90 divisions
                        1,5 millions men
                        5,000 tanks (with the newest late-war models)
                        20,000 guns

                        Japan: 1 million men
                        1,500 tanks (light for most)
                        5,000 guns

                        The soviets took 600,000 prisoners.

                        BTW I thought the Atom bomb was dropped BEFORE the soviets preparations to the offensive were over so that the attack was rushed (as it is always the case anyway with soviet operations).
                        The atom bomb was dropped 6th of august while the operation was supposed to be for 16th of august or so but started after all on the 9th of august. It had to be started before the surrender of Japan.

                        It may not be known to the mainstream people like me and you, but I'm sure military specialists have studied every single details of the operation. The reason why it does not cross to civilians books is because much of todays (soviets', but also probably other countries') offensive doctrine is based on the analysis of soviet operations during this battle(from what I heard anyway).
                        Last edited by Trigger Happy; 30 Nov 04, 10:49.
                        “Die in peace my brothers, but die quietly, so that we hear nothing but the faintest echo of your suffering…”

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 17poundr
                          Amvas or Andrey, if you know more of this please let us know, it was the most succesfull bliz of ww2 after all...
                          17poundr,

                          Not sure if you've seen this yet, but it's a paper/book by Glantz available at the Combat Studies Institute:

                          http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/car...ontent.asp#aug

                          Take care,
                          Brian

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by amvas
                            It's may be strange, but Japan war of 1945 is not well documented
                            Of course, I managed to find some maps, but indeed not large amount of information available. It was brilliant operation. Soviet Armies cut Japan Manchzhurian Army like a knife. I have to note that strength of that Japan Army was ~1 mlns soldiers...
                            I SAW A DOCUMENTARY AND IT WAS THE GEATEST BLIZ IN WW2, AND MOST PEOPLE DONT EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT!!!

                            THE RUSSIANS SENT SOME OF THEIR BEST TROOPS, AND COMMANDERS, AND TOOK THE PLACE THE SIZE OF EUROPE IN UNDER TWO WEEKS!!!!
                            "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

                            If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Scully
                              17poundr,

                              Not sure if you've seen this yet, but it's a paper/book by Glantz available at the Combat Studies Institute:

                              http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/car...ontent.asp#aug

                              Take care,
                              Brian
                              THANKS! AN OUTSTANDING SITE! TRULY OUTSTANDING!
                              RARELY DOES ONE SEE INFO SO FREELY DEPARTED, EVERYBODY HAVE A LOOK AT THE SITE, I DOWNLOADED SOME MAPS FOR YOU AMVAS, I'LL SEND THEM TO YAHOO, BECAUSE IT HAS A CHAPTER OF A BOOK AND IF OVER FIVE MEGS!

                              OH AND TRIGGERHAPPY, GOOD INFO, THANKS.
                              ALEX, ANDREY, I THINK THIS WILL INTEREST YOU, THE SITE IS AMAZING.
                              "SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM" - " If you want peace, prepare for war".

                              If acted upon in time, ww2 could have been stopped without a single bullet being fired. - Sir Winston Churchill

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