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Efficiency of Armor Use in the USSR

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  • #46
    Hitler spent a fortune and occupied invaluable men in farfetched, super expensive weapons that were useless or nearly so (V-1 and 2, super cannon with several stages of explosions, a rocket plane, the elephant tank, a jetplane that entered service when the war was lost, etc,). In contrast, there were two low tech planes that would have been invaluable in barbarossa:

    a) 600 HS-123 all metal biplane dive bombers that used little gas, flew at twice the speed of the British wood and linnen Swordfish, had very reliable and easily serviceable radial engines (much better for the USSR than those of the Stuka) and was much lighter than the Stuka or the Bf-109 bomber version that were very problematic in the USSR (the narrow landing gear of the heavy Bf-109 killed many German pilots in the mud and ice). This plane was extremely accurate, easy to learn to fly and was very useful to Guderian in France (who was surprised by its fast turn around and survivability). A few dozen were used in the USSR very successfuly (a few surviving for two years), but production stopped in 1938 and the tooling was destroyed in 1940. 200 of these inexpesnive planes in each of the three army groups would have made a big difference.

    b) 50 Me-323 Gigant. These giant, slow, 6 engine planes could have transported troops or the desperately needed supplies for advanced armor in Yelnya, etc, and during the mud-road season, etc, They could have also saved thousands of lives by evacuating the wounded who could easily survive in a hospital but stood no chance near the front.

    Both planes are quite vulnerable to enemy fighters (as were the Stuka, He-111, Ju-88, etc,) but can be extremely useful when there is air superiority.
    Last edited by Draco; 26 Aug 12, 12:21.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Draco View Post

      In Barbarossa (where there were fewer planes and 2,900 km of front) the great quality advantage of the LW allowed elimination of 2,000 planes in the first week, but this resulted in very poor ground support, compared to France. Had the LW concentrated on eliminating 4,000 planes before the advance (hopefully Stalin would order a ground assault during the air attack), and then the few planes available could have provided much better ground support, resulting in fewer German plane and tank losses and much better use of the decent weather window.
      Had Greece not intervened, the LW could have struck while the muddy ground hindered the Soviet counter attack in early June.
      But Goering and Hitler were too stupid to allow their Generals to eliminate the planes first. The result was such poor air support and low armor concentration that Barbarossa cannot be called Blitzkrieg.
      The Great quality that you speak of becomes very less so when you take into account that what they destroyed was obselute planes packed into airfields that wasn´t properly preapered. And how can it be of such high quality if they allowed Soviet Female women in Biplanes to harass German troops?
      “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

      Max Sterner

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      • #48
        I don't see your point. When a few modern planes destroy thousands of obsolete planes that are not properly prepared, it is precisely a quality advantage. Besides they were not packed up, but thinly spread over hundreds of aerodromes.
        The destruction did not stop after the initial surprise (as it did in Pearl Harbor), they destroyed 2,000 planes the first week and 1,000 on average each of the following 2 weeks.

        The night witches were not active at all during Brabarossa, but much later.
        Besides try to stop a few biplanes from sneaking along a 2,900 km front at night and drop a small bomb with their engines silent and fly away (is like stopping the wetbacks along the Mexican border when the US economy is good, some will always sneak through).
        They didn't kill many or damage much, they mostly disrupted the sleep of a few hundred soldiers most nghts.
        The fact that a huge nation with a mighty industry and receiving a lot of planes from the US and Britain and which has a population of 170 million (plenty of men) resorted to such tactics illustrates the utter desperation and the inability to exploit their numerical advantage in planes, tanks, cannon and men throughput the war.

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        • #49
          Besides try to stop a few biplanes from sneaking along a 2,900 km front at night and drop a small bomb with their engines silent and fly away (is like stopping the wetbacks along the Mexican border when the US economy is good, some will always sneak through).
          They didn't kill many or damage much, they mostly disrupted the sleep of a few hundred soldiers most nghts.
          They acted vere will according to their possibilities.


          The fact that a huge nation with a mighty industry and receiving a lot of planes from the US and Britain and which has a population of 170 million (plenty of men) resorted to such tactics illustrates the utter desperation and the inability to exploit their numerical advantage in planes, tanks, cannon and men throughput the war.
          As usuallyyou're completely wrong. At the outbreak of the war, USSR had apopulation of around 196 million but around 85 millions found themselves rapidly under occupation. On other side Germany had a population of 90 millions, Romania more than 20 millions, Italy 45 millions, Hungary 14,7 million, Slovakia 2,65 million, Croatia 7 million and Finland 3,7 million. Plus plenty of Waffen SS and Hiwis. So it was clearly the Germany who wasn't unable to exploit his advantages.
          There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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          • #50
            Those under occupation often fought the Germans better than those under Stalin's lousy leadership, despite having much fewer resources.
            Germany and Italy were fighting on two fronts, The Soviets weren't
            The Soviets had 130 million Americans acting like Santa Claus all year around. Stalin needed only to send a letter asking for everything he wanted.

            Like I said too bad that after murdering his own officers, he murdered the many thousand of Polish officers he captured. Had they been alive and allowed to lead, with the formidable resources the red army had in june 1941, the Germans would not have stood a chance.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Draco View Post
              Those under occupation often fought the Germans better than those under Stalin's lousy leadership, despite having much fewer resources.
              Really? What's your source for this please? The partisans really didn't become a major factor until 1943.

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              • #52
                There's only one reply needed to all the yahoos who argue for the incredible efficiency and excellence of the German Wehrmacht:
                As a direct result of the German military officer castes' strategic bungling, logistical amateurishness, and Hitler's grand strategical idiocy, on 12 May 1945, for the first time in almost 1000 years, there was not a square meter of land anywhere on the planet that was governed by German speakers.

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                • #53
                  In contrast, the imbecil who had murdered his officers, started the war together with Hitler invading Poland after supplying him on credit while he invaded France, stumbled in Finland, killed million in his purges and during the war by incompetence, was ruling the largest empire in History and would soon ruin both the Soviet and American economies wasting absurd sums for decades in an arms race. Britain would succumb to socialism and R-R and all the other British car makers would belong to German companies. The discriminated, backward Chinese would own the world. C'est la vie.
                  Last edited by Draco; 29 Aug 12, 01:52.

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                  • #54
                    This is not exactly true. Po-2s were responsible for over 1/2 the bombing missions in WW2 for the Soviets, commencing use on 6/41.
                    The fantastic amounts of "obsolete" bi-planes in service may be quantified by the fact that over 100 regiments of the R-5 were in service during the war. Studies of Luftewaffe archives show that these bi-planes were anything but easy to "shoot down" unless they were caught napping, as they would rapidly disappear into terrain features.

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                    • #55
                      Which illustrates the very defficient bombing done by the Soviets. This plane can carry a ridiculous bomb load and was used only at the front (short range and low speed). The Soviets had thousands of Sturmoviks and thousands of excellent twin engine bombers (including several thousand American A-20s, etc,). It is a complete shame that planes with a 125 hp engine would perform as many bombing missions as the Sturmoviks and modern twin engine planes that can bomb the supply lines, armor, etc, carrying a lot more bombs and during the day.

                      It is also a shame that of the 158,000 planes made by the Soviets during WW II 25,000 (16%) were linnen Po-2s with 125 hp and 37,000 (23%) were Sturmoviks, which leaves 86,000 for fighters, twin engine bombers, transport planes, etc, A ridiculously small amount for a huge country receiving aluminum and everything it asked for from America. Stalin never understood that modern, fast, high quality planes, easy to fly in combat ruled in WW II and produced ridiculously large amounts of cannon (500,000) and tanks (100,000) instead.

                      Most Soviet fighter planes were fast but were a nighmare to fly in combat, the pilot having to control 6 or more levers, knobs and joysticks simultaneously. Which is why several aces preferred the worst American fighter of the war, the Airacobra to Soviet planes.

                      Given the fuel shortage I wouldn't scramble planes to shoot down a biplane harassing more than destroying. Had they really wanted to shoot them down, instead of concentrating on fending off the thousands of Soviet tanks attacking them they could have used planes from WW I with 150 hp engines to save fuel and match the speed of the Po-2 more closely.

                      It was difficult to get Stalin to use his presents. When Roosevelt received pictures of tens of thousands of trucks parked without being used, he had to tell Stalin to use them or stop receiving L-L. Only then were they rushed to the front.
                      The Soviets received 200 fabulous P-47, and instead of using them at the front and asking for more, Stalin kept them to defend Moscow (which of course could not be attacked at this stage). Even after Germany fell, instead of sending some of the thousands of T-34s to fight the Japanese, he sent old tanks. Stalin enjoyed losing as many men in battle as possible, using formidable resources in the worst possible way.
                      Last edited by Draco; 31 Aug 12, 12:56.

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                      • #56
                        Thread re-opened.
                        Off topic posts removed.


                        Last edited by Skoblin; 06 Oct 12, 14:46.

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