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  • pakfront

    I read the description on wikipedia and would like to get more information on its implementation and evolution as a tactic.

    Any help would be appreciated.

  • #2
    Originally posted by DidJuno View Post
    I read the description on wikipedia and would like to get more information on its implementation and evolution as a tactic.

    Any help would be appreciated.
    Wikipedia is not correct in this case.
    there were no "pakfront" term in the soviet tactics.
    But as soviets definitely studied German experience in tactics of course they could use something similar artillery positioning.
    However it's better to study artillery placement schemes in the Kursk battle and later to compare.

    Regards
    Alex
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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    • #3
      Wait... I thought it was a Red Army tactic that the Germans took and gave it a name if their own.
      NOT kidding here, I never read about the Germans using it until after Kursk.
      And the Russians had to have had a name for it. What, was that another freaking state secret?

      This is a good illustration of the source of my frustration when it comes to the Soviet side of the biggest and most interesting war ever. What harm would it do to reveal the full story here?
      "Why is the Rum gone?"

      -Captain Jack

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      • #4
        the 'story' is known, but not told in the manner that appeals to armor fanatics. The information is in the accounts of the Red Army artillery & its adaptation to mechanized war from the 1930s. Most of the English language descriptions I've run across were rather dry and technical items in magazines like the US 'Field Artillery Journal'. There may be some descriptions in the glossy pages popular books, but I am not familar with any.

        The short version is as 1941 ran out the artillerymen learned how to best execute the doctrine of inegrating all the division artillery for effective antitank fires. That is the heavier 76mm & 122mm cannon were used with both direct fires and indirect fires to reinforce in close coordination the AT fires of the regimental AT guns. This was usually where small numbers of cannon covered a kilometer of Front, but where the defense was thickened the density of guns increased & in some cases reaching the proportions of the Kursk region in 1943. Reinforcing the division artillery with groups from the army artillery brigades also incresed the artillery density per kilometer.

        A important point here is the heavier cannon were not exclusively deployed as AT weapons. Batterys or sections of the 76 & 122mm cannon deployed forward were sited for use against enemy infantry or heavy weapons as much as for AT use. Also they were still used for indirect fire attacks & that constituted the bulk of their ammunition use from 1942.

        The multiple roles and flexibility makes the application of the German terminology a bit inaccurate
        Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 15 Dec 11, 16:02.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DidJuno View Post
          I read the description on wikipedia and would like to get more information on its implementation and evolution as a tactic.

          Any help would be appreciated.
          Here is a link to the archives of the old 'Field Artillery Journal'

          http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbullet...ves/index.html

          Search round the 1991 or 1992 edtions for a article by Captain Stephen L Curtis titled 'Nikolai Voronov and the Defense of Moscow: An Artillery Epoch:

          This article is brief and can be criticized for overstating some items and leaving many things aside. But, it should serve as a usefull primer in understanding how the Red Army artillerymen adapted from their unready condition of June 1941 to effective methods in December

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DidJuno View Post
            I read the description on wikipedia and would like to get more information on its implementation and evolution as a tactic.

            Any help would be appreciated.
            My understanding of it is that Rokossovsky created the first antitank defense system at Yartsevo in July 1941 while commanding "Group Rokossovsky". It consisted of a system of mutually supporting antitank strong points focused on the main routes that tanks could take. It became a standard pattern for deployment of antitank defenses for the RKKA for the remainder of the war. A good description of this antitank defense plan can be found (including maps) in "The Battle for Kursk, 1943 : the Soviet General Staff study" London ; Portland, OR : F. Cass, 1999.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Michel View Post
              My understanding of it is that Rokossovsky created the first antitank defense system at Yartsevo in July 1941 ...
              One of the items left out of Curtis's brief were any detail of actions in the south. The focus on Voronov leaves about very other leader unmentioned.

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              • #8
                The information is out there and freely available. I googled it in 10 seconds. The blame is upon the lazy and uninquisitive Western researchers who don't look out for new modern publications in Russian.

                http://translate.google.com/translat...ay4%2Fpre.html
                www.histours.ru

                Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                  The information is out there and freely available. I googled it in 10 seconds. The blame is upon the lazy and uninquisitive Western researchers who don't look out for new modern publications in Russian.

                  http://translate.google.com/translat...ay4%2Fpre.html
                  I find the same is true for information on the VVS operations, there is plenty of historical studies and other data on the subject -in Russian- But most are too lazy to learn Russian or look hard to find sources online, which can be translated by Google (or several other translation engines like Microsoft, Babylon or Paralink)

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                  • #10
                    Yes, tried that once, and had to immediately spend 100 dollars to get a killer virus flushed from my computer.
                    Okay, so nobody that does not speak Russian is entitled to know anything about Russia, I hear you loud and clear.
                    Goodbye.
                    "Why is the Rum gone?"

                    -Captain Jack

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                      Yes, tried that once, and had to immediately spend 100 dollars to get a killer virus flushed from my computer.
                      Get over your paranoia at last. This is freaking Google Translate! And militera.lib.ru is a well-respected web library.

                      Okay, so nobody that does not speak Russian is entitled to know anything about Russia, I hear you loud and clear.
                      Goodbye.
                      So what do you actually want? Nobody here is going to translate the whole article for you. Petition your local publishing house to translate this book. Or ask a military historian next door to write a book about Soviet anti-tank artillery using the abundant and freely available Russian language sources.

                      At least in case he starts whining about the Russians being oh so secretive, you can shove this article up his rear
                      www.histours.ru

                      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                      • #12
                        Yeah, like it was soooo difficult for the Germans to produce and translate their books.

                        Availability makes a huge difference.

                        BTW- I was using Google when I got hit by that virus.
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Back about 1968, I started teaching my self Russian because the university library where I was going to school had shelves of Soviet military history books that I could not read. Having read the (translated) German books by Guderian, Manstein, Senger und Etterlin, and von Mellinthin, I was absolutely certain there had to be an 'other side of the story' in those Soviet histories. In the next few years I discovered that there was indeed an entirely different narrative, but also that damn few people were interested in hearing about it in the West. It was the time of the Cold War, Soviets were (if you believed the Germans) incompetent enemies, and that was much, much more comforting than finding out that their military actually knew what they were doing and could do it very well...
                          Strangely, we are still dealing with some of that attitude. The 'German' view is so deeply entrenched that even academics in the west have trouble understanding just how much material is available to counter that viewpoint. People like David Glantz who regularly bring the Soviet/Russian sources to light in English are very lonely voices.
                          As to obtaining English versions of the Soviet/Russian material, despite the virus problem, there are numerous ways to make things available. Besides the online translation programs, there are a lot of individuals in the US that can help. A friend of mine regularly advertises on the bulletin board at his local college (which has Russian language courses) for translation services, and gets grad students and others to translate material for him. Of course, first you have to know enough Russian (or Ukrainian, or whatever) to recognize what is valuable and useful and available, but that is (partially) what Forums like this are for...

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sharposhnikov View Post
                            Back about 1968, I started teaching my self Russian because the university library where I was going to school had shelves of Soviet military history books that I could not read. Having read the (translated) German books by Guderian, Manstein, Senger und Etterlin, and von Mellinthin, I was absolutely certain there had to be an 'other side of the story' in those Soviet histories. In the next few years I discovered that there was indeed an entirely different narrative, but also that damn few people were interested in hearing about it in the West. It was the time of the Cold War, Soviets were (if you believed the Germans) incompetent enemies, and that was much, much more comforting than finding out that their military actually knew what they were doing and could do it very well...
                            Strangely, we are still dealing with some of that attitude. The 'German' view is so deeply entrenched that even academics in the west have trouble understanding just how much material is available to counter that viewpoint. People like David Glantz who regularly bring the Soviet/Russian sources to light in English are very lonely voices.
                            As to obtaining English versions of the Soviet/Russian material, despite the virus problem, there are numerous ways to make things available. Besides the online translation programs, there are a lot of individuals in the US that can help. A friend of mine regularly advertises on the bulletin board at his local college (which has Russian language courses) for translation services, and gets grad students and others to translate material for him. Of course, first you have to know enough Russian (or Ukrainian, or whatever) to recognize what is valuable and useful and available, but that is (partially) what Forums like this are for...
                            Hello,
                            Although the context of this discussion is a focus on Russian sources, I find the remarks about the tendency to rely on German sources accurate, even when discussing the 1939 Poland campaign. To read solely German sources, the Polish Army collapsed. Not true.

                            As has been pointed out, the defense of Poland lasted almost as long, if not longer, than the defense of the Western Front starting in May 1940.

                            Many Polish units fought like tigers and even overran the "Supermen" of the SS - especially SS Germania, a motorized infantry regiment. All this was just west of Lvov in the southern area of operations.

                            I endorse the searching out of grad students at local colleges and universities for the appropriate language skills. I used a Polish native who helped with translations from Polish books about the 1939 campaign available in the NY Public Library.
                            RedDagger18

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                              Yes, tried that once, and had to immediately spend 100 dollars to get a killer virus flushed from my computer.
                              Okay, so nobody that does not speak Russian is entitled to know anything about Russia, I hear you loud and clear.
                              Goodbye.
                              Download Kasperski Rescue Disc for free and nurn the ISO to a CD. If you have any malware that is killling the usability of your PC, that is your first weapon to turn before shelling out your hard earned cash and declaring defeat!

                              Comment

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