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  • Article on Leningrad at history.com

    I've noticed this post on Leningrad at history.com, here are some some comments and nitpicking.

    On this day in 1941, as part of their offensive campaign in the Soviet Union, German bombers blast through Leningrad's antiaircraft defenses, and kill more than 1,000 Russians
    Although there's no exact statistics on the number of victims of this bombing, judging by different reports the number should be around 700 people. Most of them were hospital patients as the Nazis deliberately targeted hospitals and many other sites protected by international conventions.

    Hitler's armies had been in Soviet territory since June. An attempt by the Germans to take Leningrad (formerly St. Petersburg) in August by a massive panzer invasion had failed.
    There was no "massive panzer invasion", unless the 4th Pz Gr which reinforce AGN in July is counted as something really massive. The Red Army defended in July-September at 2 fortified belts near Luga and in the suburbs of Leningrad, and each of them delayed the Germans for about 3 weeks. The heaviest fighting was in the period from September 9 to 18, and on September 16 von Leeb had to hand over most of the 4th Pz Gr armoured assets to AGC to support its Moscow offensive.

    Hitler had wanted to decimate the city and hand it over to an ally, Finland, who was attacking Russia from the north.
    To be more precise, he wanted to level the city to the ground and starve its population entirely. The Finns would only take the smoking ruins and occupy all lands to the north of the Neva.

    But Leningrad had created an antitank defense sufficient to keep the Germans at bay—and so a siege was mounted.
    There was no special anti-tank defense like the one built around Kursk. In mid-September Zhukov ordered to switch AA guns to AT fire, and this is the only special big anti-tank measure I can think of. What really kept the Germans at bay, were 3 main factors:

    1. Hitler's decision to declare Leningrad a secondary theatre in early September 1941 and the subsequent withdrawal of 4 Pz Gr.

    2. Heavy artillery fire from the battleships of the Red-Bannered Baltic Fleet as the German forces came within their range.

    3. A number of drastic measures Zhukov took to remedy the situation.

    German forces surrounded the city in an attempt to cut it off from the rest of Russia. (Finland eventually stopped short of an invasion of Leningrad, happy just to recapture territory it had lost to the Soviet invasion in 1939.)
    Beside advancing a 5-10 kilometers into the territory which never belonged to them on the Karelian Isthmus, the Finnish troops fulfilled their nationalist dream of "Greater Finland" and captured a huge chunk of Soviet territory up to river Svir in Eastern Karelia, where they immediately started an ethnic cleansing campaign.

    The halt of the German land attack and the withdrawal of the panzer divisions to be used elsewhere did not stop the Luftwaffe from continuing to raid the city. ("The Fuhrer has decided to have St. Petersburg wiped off the face of the Earth," declared Hitler to his generals.) The air attack of the 19th was particularly brutal; many of those killed were already recuperating from battle wounds in hospitals, which were hit by German bombs.
    Well, this declaration was made 3 days after the air attack. This particular bombing was rather meant to terrorise the population and lower the morale as even with the loss of his armoured fist, von Leeb did not give up his hopes to capture the city by the end of September.

    The siege of Leningrad would last a total of 872 days and would prove devastating to the population. More than 650,000 Leningrad citizens died in 1942 alone, from starvation, exposure, diseases, and artillery shelling from German positions outside the city. The only route by which supplies could enter the city was via Lake Ladoga, which entailed sleds negotiating ice during the winter. But the resources that got through were only enough to prolong the suffering of the Leningraders. Even tales of cannibalism began leaking out of the city. Soviet forces were finally successful in breaking the siege in January 1944, pushing the Germans 50 miles from the city.
    Well, there were not just sleds, there were trucks. And the Siege was effectively broken in January 1943, when a land corridor was liberated and the city's food supply became the same as elsewhere in the country.

    Among those trapped in the city was an air-raid warden born in St. Petersburg named Dimitri Shostakovich, who wrote his Seventh Symphony during the siege. He was eventually evacuated and able to perform his masterwork in Moscow. The U.S. premiere of the piece raised relief funds for the desperate Russians.
    Actually, he only completed the first part before he was flown to Samara where he finished the symphony by the end of December 1941. The challenge was to perform his music not in Moscow but in the besieged Leningrad, and the premiere took place on August 9, 1942, which was a big morale lifting event for the Leningraders.
    www.histours.ru

    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

  • #2
    As regard to the Finnish participation... The document discusses its relation to the Siege of Leningrad. Finnish advance to Svir did not really concern that since Germans failed to link up with the Finns.

    As for the 'ethnic cleansing'... What Finns planned to do was in no way different than the 'ethnic cleansing' the Soviets and Allies carried out after the WWII.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
      As regard to the Finnish participation... The document discusses its relation to the Siege of Leningrad. Finnish advance to Svir did not really concern that since Germans failed to link up with the Finns.
      How come an advance far beyond the original border deep into the Soviet territory could be of no concern?

      As for the 'ethnic cleansing'... What Finns planned to do was in no way different than the 'ethnic cleansing' the Soviets and Allies carried out after the WWII.
      Oh really?

      1. Driving non-Finnish civilian population in concentration camps with a starvation diet - check

      2. Ethnic segregation in terms of education, food supply, employment - check

      3. Extremely high mortality rate of Soviet POWs (29%) - check
      www.histours.ru

      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

      Comment


      • #4
        How come an advance far beyond the original border deep into the Soviet territory could be of no concern?
        No concern as regarding to the Siege of Leningrad.

        Oh really?

        1. Driving non-Finnish civilian population in concentration camps with a starvation diet - check

        2. Ethnic segregation in terms of education, food supply, employment - check

        3. Extremely high mortality rate of Soviet POWs (29%) - check
        Couple of errors you have got there... First only a portion of non-Finnic population was placed in camps. Second it was not starvation but malnutrition. Such a diet was widespread in Finland in (first half of the) 1942, all confined people suffered from it both in Finland as well as in East Karelia. Only reason why general populace did not suffer badly from it was that Finland was at the time rural society and could live on the land (ie supplement diet with hunting and gathering). Lack of actually nutritious food was due to both Soviets capturing Finnish farmlands in 1940 and due lack of trade (fertilizers) due WWII in general. Didn't help much either that Soviets surrendered in droves on 1941.

        Ethnic segregation happened, that far is true.

        Mortality among Soviet POWs was from the same cause as with the civilians (and remained lower than what the mortality amongst the Finnish POWs was - 2000 returned of 3400). Malnutrition. However what Soviet POWs have to do with the issue is beyond me.

        Only real plan which could be counted as ethnic cleansing was to plan ship the non-Finnic population to the Russian lands once the war was over - however that did not happen, it was just a plan. On the other hand that (relocation) exactly that was what the Soviets (and Allies) did to German civilians - evicted them from their homes all around Eastern Europe. And forced them to relocate to new German proper.
        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
          No concern as regarding to the Siege of Leningrad.
          Had the Germans managed to fulfill their part of the plan, this would be a concern.

          Couple of errors you have got there... First only a portion of non-Finnic population was placed in camps.
          Yes, these were the Russians who made up a quite sizeable portion. The collaborationists weren't, so what?

          Second it was not starvation but malnutrition. Such a diet was widespread in Finland in (first half of the) 1942, all confined people suffered from it both in Finland as well as in East Karelia. Only reason why general populace did not suffer badly from it was that Finland was at the time rural society and could live on the land (ie supplement diet with hunting and gathering). Lack of actually nutritious food was due to both Soviets capturing Finnish farmlands in 1940 and due lack of trade (fertilizers) due WWII in general. Didn't help much either that Soviets surrendered in droves on 1941.
          And yet there was no mass starvation in Finland, just like there was no starvation of non-Russian ethnicities. Beside that, the conditions civilians and soldiers were kept in were deliberately aggravated by systematic abuse and torture by Finnish concentration camp commendants and guards.

          Ethnic segregation happened, that far is true.

          Mortality among Soviet POWs was from the same cause as with the civilians (and remained lower than what the mortality amongst the Finnish POWs was - 2000 returned of 3400). Malnutrition.
          Wow, looks like the Finnish POWs not only lived a nice life, but also multiplied in captivity. The Soviet reports say there were 2476 POWs, of them 403 died (Finskie voennoplennye 2 Mirovoi Voiny)

          However what Soviet POWs have to do with the issue is beyond
          me.
          The fact that Russian POWs were given far lesser rations in most cases.

          Only real plan which could be counted as ethnic cleansing was to plan ship the non-Finnic population to the Russian lands once the war was over - however that did not happen, it was just a plan. On the other hand that (relocation) exactly that was what the Soviets (and Allies) did to German civilians - evicted them from their homes all around Eastern Europe. And forced them to relocate to new German proper.
          The plan of starving civilians was already being implemented, and those who would've been resettled to the German-controlled territories, would've been starved according to their Generalplan "Ost".

          Here's a Google-translated quote from Vaino Voyonmaa : "... from the 20000th Eenislinna Russian population, the civilian population 19 000 located in the camps, and a thousand free. Feeding those who are in camp, not much praise. In the food are the two-day-old dead horse. Russian children search through garbage in search of food waste thrown out by Finnish soldiers. What would the Red Cross in Geneva do, if it knew about this ... "

          Holocaust was also "just a plan".
          www.histours.ru

          Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, these were the Russians who made up a quite sizeable portion. The collaborationists weren't, so what?
            It was much less about collaborationist than where they lived. If the areas where they lived had partisan presence the population was confined to starve the partisans. Same worked with military facilites or with front lines. Living too close to either could mean ticket to the camps - some of which originally were just marked buildings without even any fences.

            And yet there was no mass starvation in Finland, just like there was no starvation of non-Russian ethnicities. Beside that, the conditions civilians and soldiers were kept in were deliberately aggravated by systematic abuse and torture by Finnish concentration camp commendants and guards.
            Confined people in Finland died off at the same rate as confined people in East Karelia. So for confined people the situation was the same. Systematic abuse is something which no one has been able to prove as is the torture claim. Happy hunting for the evidence of either.

            Wow, looks like the Finnish POWs not only lived a nice life, but also multiplied in captivity. The Soviet reports say there were 2476 POWs, of them 403 died (Finskie voennoplennye 2 Mirovoi Voiny)
            NKVD counted only those POWs who made it alive to the camps. Which has been noted in several sources. 3400 is the number of Finnish who surrendered. The difference was killed by Soviet troops as they surrendered (known cases of gunning down surrendered unarmed Finns at Bay of Viborg or bayoneting surrendered but wounded Finnish soldiers to death at Vuosalmi both exists) or then they perished on the way to the camps.

            The fact that Russian POWs were given far lesser rations in most cases.
            As surprising as it might be even they were equal portions to Finnish civilians. As said it was not the quantity but the bad quality that was the cause. Not starvation but malnutrition and related diseases.

            The plan of starving civilians was already being implemented, and those who would've been resettled to the German-controlled territories, would've been starved according to their Generalplan "Ost".
            What the Germans would have done to them that i can not tell. Finnish intent was to release them to Russia. Also plan nor intent was to starve any one. Amount of foods was sufficient all the time. Quality was not but there was nothing Finns could do since Finns did not have enough food to begin with. Instead they relied on German shipments which due to Soviet presence (and mines) at Hanko could be delivered only to Western Finland.
            It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
              It was much less about collaborationist than where they lived. If the areas where they lived had partisan presence the population was confined to starve the partisans. Same worked with military facilites or with front lines. Living too close to either could mean ticket to the camps - some of which originally were just marked buildings without even any fences.
              Well, as the quote I've brought up showed, civilians were successfully starved along with all potential "partisans".


              Confined people in Finland died off at the same rate as confined people in East Karelia. So for confined people the situation was the same.
              Define "confined" people in Finland. Did Finnish criminals die off at the same rate in prisons?

              Systematic abuse is something which no one has been able to prove as is the torture claim. Happy hunting for the evidence of either.
              From the book by Helge Seppala, "Finland as an occupier in 1941-1944".

              On abuse, Google-translated:

              Disobedience and attempts to escape thwarted the most stringent manner, including the use of weapons. This item gave employees the unrestricted right to use the camps to punish gun. The rules also state that treatment of prisoners in the camp must be treated humanely and with the relevant laws and that the working hours are set by the camp commander. This last point meant that the working day within the camp could be longer than the outside, where adhered to regulations in force in Finland.

              The requirement to comply with the mystery of the camps in the next paragraph reads: "The affairs of the camp is strictly forbidden to speak to outsiders." It was mandatory for prisoners and for protection. Clearly, they did not want disclosure of information about the state of the camps and applied sanctions. Perhaps that is why the names of many employees and their camps have been ignorant of the case.

              In order to manage the camps were designed punishment of prisoners. The most insignificant of punishment considered out of turn. Then a simple and strict arrest. The most violent - corporal punishment of up to 25 strokes Merikoski argues that the usual punishment could appoint the camp officials, but only bodily camp commandant. Corporal punishment of women have been banned.

              in April of 1944, concentration camps, by that time renamed the camps for displaced persons were given new facilities to strengthen the discipline. And, surprisingly, that the penalties have been toughened. Although Finland at that time and rejected Soviet proposals for a peace treaty, but the warrior was already lost.

              Under the new rules determined by the following penalties:
              - Removal with trusted work;
              - Implementation of the extraordinary work of up to eight times;
              - Works without pay for 30 days;
              - Finally, in solitary confinement and in lit up to 30 days in the dark - up to eight days. When combining sentences - in the lit lock-up to 45 days, and in the dark up to 12. These penalties can be enhanced by a firm bed;
              - Corporal punishment of 25 strokes;
              - The conclusion of a disciplinary camp.

              Commandants camps and camps for displaced persons to give any punishment other camp commanders to determine first, second and fourth paragraphs of punishment, as well as overtime work, works without pay for up to 15 days, and corporal punishment to ten strokes.

              Morozov writes about the punishments used by the Finns a little differently. According to him, the Finns used the hard corporal punishment. Soviet people were beaten up for various reasons, truncheons, sticks and whips.
              Next Morozov says that the Finns was the rule to punish violations of confinement in a punishment cell for two or three days without drinking, and that the Soviet people in the camps had been tortured and were tortured, shot for the most minor infractions, not sparing even children.
              Because the information contained Morozov, seemed to be exaggerated, while the Finns had no desire for memories, the author of four traveled to Petrozavodsk for meetings with people who could give reliable information. Writers of Karelia, and all my interlocutors react with and desire to help and arranged meetings with the right people for this study. An important source of knowledge was a photo placed in the book Isaac Batsera this photograph, taken by Galina Sanko correspondent in Petrozavodsk in 1944 after the liberation. The photo was published in the Soviet and foreign press only in 1966. Published been hoping to find those who were then surrounded by barbed wire.

              The author had the opportunity to talk with being in the right side of the picture, then 9-year-old girl Claudia Soboleva, now has a higher education Nyuppievoy Claudia.

              On the penalties applied by the Finns, Claudia Nyuppieva told straight, without embellishment. The Finns were shot at the children of prisoners, was administered corporal punishment to women, children and the elderly, regardless of age. She also said that the Finns before departure from Petrozavodsk shot young boys and her sister survived a miracle. According to available documents, Finnish, only seven men were shot for trying to escape or other crimes. During the conversation it became clear that the family Sobolevs one of those that have been removed from Zaonezhye. Mother Soboleva and her six children had difficult. Claudia told us that they have taken away the cow, they were denied the right to receive monthly food, then, in the summer of 1942, they were moved by barge to Petrozavodsk and determined the concentration camp number 6, 125 barracks. The mother immediately went to the hospital. Claudia recalled with horror done by Finns disinfection. People ugorali in the so-called bath, and then they poured cold water. The food was bad, spoiled food, clothing worthless.

              Only at the end of June 1944 they were able to get out from behind the barbed wire camp. There were six sisters Sobolevs 16-year-old Maria, a 14-year-old Antonina, 12-year-old Rice, nine of Claudius, a six-year Eugene and just a little Zoe, she was not yet three years old.

              The worker Ivan Morekhodov told about the attidtudes of Finns towards the detainees: "Food was scarce, and that was bad. Baths were horrible. The Finns did not show no mercy. "

              NKVD counted only those POWs who made it alive to the camps. Which has been noted in several sources. 3400 is the number of Finnish who surrendered.
              How could they be properly calculated? Who did the calculations and when? Gotta love how the Finns make an excuse for their war crimes record by counting their MIA as "Soviet war crimes victims".

              The difference was killed by Soviet troops as they surrendered (known cases of gunning down surrendered unarmed Finns at Bay of Viborg or bayoneting surrendered but wounded Finnish soldiers to death at Vuosalmi both exists) or then they perished on the way to the camps.
              Firstly, I was speaking of the conditions in prison camps, and secondly, don't get me started on countless Finnish atrocities committed upon the surrendered and captured Soviet soldiers. Petrovsky Yam massacre alone tops anything the Soviet troops had ever done.

              As surprising as it might be even they were equal portions to Finnish civilians.
              Source?

              From the same book:

              The first rules were as follows: Finnish and Karelian issued on day 300 grams of flour and 400 grams of sugar per month. On the basis of racial separation in Russian, or "non-national", was given only a day to 200 grams of flour and 250 grams of sugar per month. Regardless of nationality, working in a given day supplement of 150 grams of bread. In October 1941, Karels were given 500 grams of sugar, and Russian and 300 grams.

              In the first year of war, people unrelated Finnish people, mostly Russian, have been much worse. This question, many Finnish researchers avoided, even though inequality was due to a lot against the occupiers. This separation of the inhabitants of Soviet Karelia in the different groups increased hostility and hatred for the Finns.
              What the Germans would have done to them that i can not tell.
              No, you can. See Generalplan "Ost". Basically, a Holocaust "light". On the other hand, there was no difference as the Finns, or their establishment, were as infected with ideas of racial superiority as the Germans.
              www.histours.ru

              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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              • #8
                what r u peeple arguing about?

                semantics?
                opinion?
                personal prejudices?

                Soviet Union won
                after a fashion
                not that they were humanitarians
                Human beings are the only creatures who are able to behave irrationally in the name of reason.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, as the quote I've brought up showed, civilians were successfully starved along with all potential "partisans".
                  Most of the Finnic or non-Finnic people actually helped Finnish forces against the partisans.

                  Define "confined" people in Finland. Did Finnish criminals die off at the same rate in prisons?
                  Those prisoners who were not mobilized into fighting forces (of course some of the mobilized prisoners defected). And people confined to (for example) mental asylums. All those had similar death rates as the camps.

                  The requirement to comply with the mystery of the camps in the next paragraph reads: "The affairs of the camp is strictly forbidden to speak to outsiders." It was mandatory for prisoners and for protection. Clearly, they did not want disclosure of information about the state of the camps and applied sanctions. Perhaps that is why the names of many employees and their camps have been ignorant of the case.
                  Given that Red Cross had access to camps already in 1942 that seems hardly to have been the reason.

                  in April of 1944, concentration camps, by that time renamed the camps for displaced persons were given new facilities to strengthen the discipline. And, surprisingly, that the penalties have been toughened.
                  Camps were actually renamed in 1943 once Finns finally understood what German concentration camps were. Term concentration camp did not have as negative connotation as it currently has before the Nazi camps.

                  On the penalties applied by the Finns, Claudia Nyuppieva told straight, without embellishment. The Finns were shot at the children of prisoners, was administered corporal punishment to women, children and the elderly, regardless of age.
                  Last i read those stories the gist was that they were shot when being caught at the fence and tried to run away. Another case was when a confined people grabbed guards weapon. In either case it is hardly surprising that guards opened fire.

                  Claudia recalled with horror done by Finns disinfection. People ugorali in the so-called bath, and then they poured cold water. The food was bad, spoiled food, clothing worthless.
                  For lack of clothing you can thank your dear ally the Great Britain who in his infinite wisdom blackmailed Sweden not to sell some 30 000 sets of clothing for Finns to be given to confined civlians and POWs. And yes the cleaning process was harsh due to the sicknesses involved. Procedures at the time included bathin in hot and dry sauna and then being washed with sulphuric soap. It wasn't pleasant but it was that or do nothing and watch the confined people to die.

                  The worker Ivan Morekhodov told about the attidtudes of Finns towards the detainees: "Food was scarce, and that was bad. Baths were horrible. The Finns did not show no mercy. "
                  Of the food part that was the truth on both sides. Inside and outside of the camps. Baths were not meant to be nice. There was a typhoid epidemic raging in the camps. I suppose Soviets would have found it more humane for the guard to let confined civilians die from typhoid than forcibly try to improve their hygiene and health.

                  How could they be properly calculated? Who did the calculations and when? Gotta love how the Finns make an excuse for their war crimes record by counting their MIA as "Soviet war crimes victims".
                  By eyewitnesses for most parts. In both cases mentioned few of the Finns were not killed and eventually returned from POW camps.

                  Firstly, I was speaking of the conditions in prison camps, and secondly, don't get me started on countless Finnish atrocities committed upon the surrendered and captured Soviet soldiers. Petrovsky Yam massacre alone tops anything the Soviet troops had ever done.
                  Petrovski Yam issue is controversial since there is also fair bit of evidence that the Soviet hospital in question was placed inside Soviet supply base - which was the target for the Finns. Of course Soviet sources list is as if the hospital alone had been the target but that makes it interesting to wonder why were there tons of ammo, fuel, other supplies, and reserve battalion in the area... And yes a hospital, amongst all the supplies. Finns also attacked in the middle of the night in the middle of the winter so unless Soviets had lit their red cross marking it would have been wonder for the Finns to have seen that.

                  Source?
                  Lars Westerlund, Sotavankien ja siviili-internoitujen sodanaikainen kuolleisuus Suomessa... also chart of the caloric intake of food

                  As said it was not the quantity it was the quality but Finns had nothing else.

                  No, you can. See Generalplan "Ost". Basically, a Holocaust "light". On the other hand, there was no difference as the Finns, or their establishment, were as infected with ideas of racial superiority as the Germans.
                  There you are mistaken. Finns never intended to kill the confined people. There only existed plans to relocate them to Russian proper. As what Soviets and allies did to German civilians post WWII.
                  It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                    Most of the Finnic or non-Finnic people actually helped Finnish forces against the partisans.
                    You're confusing the terms here - they were in most cases sabotage groups sent behind the enemy lines, not local guerillas as much of the male population had been evacuated.

                    Those prisoners who were not mobilized into fighting forces (of course some of the mobilized prisoners defected). And people confined to (for example) mental asylums. All those had similar death rates as the camps.
                    Any data for that?

                    Given that Red Cross had access to camps already in 1942 that seems hardly to have been the reason.
                    The highst mortality occurred in Autumn 1941-Spring 1942. Surely, after the deal was done the Finns could let anybody in.

                    Last i read those stories the gist was that they were shot when being caught at the fence and tried to run away. Another case was when a confined people grabbed guards weapon. In either case it is hardly surprising that guards opened fire.
                    A very selective memory you've got. Last time I've read these stories it was about the Finnish guards beating people sadistically for no reason and sending them to punishment cells. In general, according to most memoirs, although the Finnish camps were not totally like the German death camps, the Finns stood out for their brutality towards the prisoners even compared to the Germans.

                    Here's translated part of the Russian wiki with references to Karelian Archive of the Newest History, which is now part of the National Archive of the Karelian Republic.

                    Because of poor nutrition in the Finnish concentration camps, the mortality rate was very high, and in 1942 it was even higher than in the German concentration camps (13.7% vs. 10.5%) [16]. On Finnish data, in all the "resettlement" camps from February 1942 to June 1944 died from 4000 (of which approximately 90% in 1942) [17] to 4600 [2], or 3409 people on a personal list , while, according to a former prisoner AP Kolomna, whose responsibility it was to remove and dispose of dead bodies from the "resettlement" camps number 3, only 8 months from May to December 1942 and only in this camp were killed 1 014 people [18].

                    Finnish prisoners of concentration camps, as well as German, worked through "compulsory labor." Sent to forced labor in the age of 15, and "labor" camp in Kutizhme - even 14-year-olds [19], with the state of health is not considered [20]. Usually working day began at 7:00 and lasted up to 18-19 hours, logging - up to 16 hours with an hour or two hours during the summer break for lunch in winter [21]. As the men were drafted into the army in the early days of the war, most of the "labor" camps were women and children. In 1941-1942, work camps, prisoners are not paid, after the German defeat at Stalingrad, began to pay from 3 to 7 FIM per day, and just before the conclusion of a truce even more - up to 20 marks (according to the testimony of A.P. Kolomensky) [22 ].

                    Cruelty towards prisoners differed protection "resettlement" camps № 2, who was considered the unofficial "death camp" (in this camp is directed "not loyal" prisoners), and its commandant, a Finnish officer Solovaara, whose conviction as a war criminal after the war, unsuccessfully sought the Soviet authorities. In May 1942 he arranged for the construction of a demonstration camp beating of prisoners, whose only fault was that they asked for alms. For attempts to evade or refuse timber works Finnish soldiers were subjected to corporal punishment of prisoners in front of all those working to ensure that, as expressed by the Finns, the "other learning" [24].

                    Total, according to K. Morozov, in the years 1941-1944 in Karelia about 14,000 civilians died. In this figure does not include prisoners of war, but consider the following fact - until 1942 the Red Army in fact no single identity document enlisted men (Red Army book). Therefore, both the Germans and Finns ranked as a prisoner of war is absolutely all people, at least about falling under the age of conscription. If, in considering that the vast majority of the rural population in the Soviet Union also did not have passports, it becomes clear quite fantastic figures "who have surrendered a prisoner" and, accordingly, one of the "prisoners" who died in the camps include a considerable number of civilians.

                    For lack of clothing you can thank your dear ally the Great Britain who in his infinite wisdom blackmailed Sweden not to sell some 30 000 sets of clothing for Finns to be given to confined civlians and POWs. And yes the cleaning process was harsh due to the sicknesses involved. Procedures at the time included bathin in hot and dry sauna and then being washed with sulphuric soap. It wasn't pleasant but it was that or do nothing and watch the confined people to die.

                    Of the food part that was the truth on both sides. Inside and outside of the camps. Baths were not meant to be nice. There was a typhoid epidemic raging in the camps. I suppose Soviets would have found it more humane for the guard to let confined civilians die from typhoid than forcibly try to improve their hygiene and health.
                    Bringing the children and the elderly into 100 degree hot saunas for an hour would lead to serious health damage or death. On the other hand, this fits well into the general policy of criminal neglect by the Finnish authorities who wanted to get rid of the "untermenschen" in a "nice way" so as not to provoke much international outrage.

                    Petrovski Yam issue is controversial since there is also fair bit of evidence that the Soviet hospital in question was placed inside Soviet supply base - which was the target for the Finns. Of course Soviet sources list is as if the hospital alone had been the target but that makes it interesting to wonder why were there tons of ammo, fuel, other supplies, and reserve battalion in the area... And yes a hospital, amongst all the supplies. Finns also attacked in the middle of the night in the middle of the winter so unless Soviets had lit their red cross marking it would have been wonder for the Finns to have seen that.
                    This is what the laws of war are for - to avoid murders of hospital patients, otherwise everyone could attack them at will, referring later to "being unable to recognise them". The "unability to see in the night" is rubbish - before one secretly attacks a base, one doesn't attack it at random, but gets at least an approximate idea of its layout and facilities. Given that the Finns didn't have any artillery or anything, while breaking into a building and seeing bandaged people in beds they could have a clue these were hospital patients, right?


                    As said it was not the quantity it was the quality but Finns had nothing else.


                    There you are mistaken. Finns never intended to kill the confined people. There only existed plans to relocate them to Russian proper. As what Soviets and allies did to German civilians post WWII.
                    And I told you that sending them to German-occupied Russia (there could be no "Russia proper" after the Nazi-Finnish victory), would be almost equal to sending Jews to Germany. Those who would not be executed, would become slaves. Well, this also fits into the eternal Finnish policy of doing dirty things with others' hands and pretending to be nice guys afterwards.
                    www.histours.ru

                    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      Most of the Finnic or non-Finnic people actually helped Finnish forces against the partisans.


                      Those prisoners who were not mobilized into fighting forces (of course some of the mobilized prisoners defected). And people confined to (for example) mental asylums. All those had similar death rates as the camps.


                      Given that Red Cross had access to camps already in 1942 that seems hardly to have been the reason.


                      Camps were actually renamed in 1943 once Finns finally understood what German concentration camps were. Term concentration camp did not have as negative connotation as it currently has before the Nazi camps.


                      Last i read those stories the gist was that they were shot when being caught at the fence and tried to run away. Another case was when a confined people grabbed guards weapon. In either case it is hardly surprising that guards opened fire.


                      For lack of clothing you can thank your dear ally the Great Britain who in his infinite wisdom blackmailed Sweden not to sell some 30 000 sets of clothing for Finns to be given to confined civlians and POWs. And yes the cleaning process was harsh due to the sicknesses involved. Procedures at the time included bathin in hot and dry sauna and then being washed with sulphuric soap. It wasn't pleasant but it was that or do nothing and watch the confined people to die.


                      Of the food part that was the truth on both sides. Inside and outside of the camps. Baths were not meant to be nice. There was a typhoid epidemic raging in the camps. I suppose Soviets would have found it more humane for the guard to let confined civilians die from typhoid than forcibly try to improve their hygiene and health.


                      By eyewitnesses for most parts. In both cases mentioned few of the Finns were not killed and eventually returned from POW camps.


                      Petrovski Yam issue is controversial since there is also fair bit of evidence that the Soviet hospital in question was placed inside Soviet supply base - which was the target for the Finns. Of course Soviet sources list is as if the hospital alone had been the target but that makes it interesting to wonder why were there tons of ammo, fuel, other supplies, and reserve battalion in the area... And yes a hospital, amongst all the supplies. Finns also attacked in the middle of the night in the middle of the winter so unless Soviets had lit their red cross marking it would have been wonder for the Finns to have seen that.


                      Lars Westerlund, Sotavankien ja siviili-internoitujen sodanaikainen kuolleisuus Suomessa... also chart of the caloric intake of food

                      As said it was not the quantity it was the quality but Finns had nothing else.


                      There you are mistaken. Finns never intended to kill the confined people. There only existed plans to relocate them to Russian proper. As what Soviets and allies did to German civilians post WWII.
                      A most interesting discussion and, as an outsider, I find myself in sympathy with aspects of both the Finnish and the USSR side of the argument.
                      (schizophrenic- me ?)

                      The comment about the "Dear Ally the Great Britain" applying pressure to Sweden to refrain from selling 30,000 sets of clothing to Finland is of interest. I cannot imagine the U.K.being able to exert much leverage upon neutral Sweden regarding such a matter, and besides, what would be the point ?

                      More info, please ?

                      Also, I understand that Mannerheim himself, prior to the outbreak of the Winter War, advocated yielding territory on the Karelian Isthmus to allay Soviet fears as to the security of Leningrad- but not as far north as Vyborg (Viipuri) of course.

                      Again, please enlighten me .
                      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                      Samuel Johnson.

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                      • #12
                        You're confusing the terms here - they were in most cases sabotage groups sent behind the enemy lines, not local guerillas as much of the male population had been evacuated.
                        They are mentioned as partisans in Soviet/Russian literature. But yes that is known difference.

                        Any data for that?
                        Starvation:Jussi Nuorteva - Suomen Vankeinhoidon Historiaa Osa 4.Vangit-Vankilat-Sota.Suomen Vankeinhoitolaitos Toisen Maailmansodan Aikana. Vehviläinen, Olli (2002). Finland in the Second World War: Between Germany and Russia.

                        The highst mortality occurred in Autumn 1941-Spring 1942. Surely, after the deal was done the Finns could let anybody in.
                        As they did not die of starvation it took some time before the officials could figure out why outwards healthy looking prisoners were dying.

                        Here's translated part of the Russian wiki with references to Karelian Archive of the Newest History, which is now part of the National Archive of the Karelian Republic.
                        It seems to be fairly accurate - main cause was malnutrition, camp deaths at 3500 to 4000. Brutalities were issues at individual camps and regardless of the claims very few cases ever yielded any result in post war examinations. Morozov is on the other hand quite bit off the ballpark

                        Bringing the children and the elderly into 100 degree hot saunas for an hour would lead to serious health damage or death. On the other hand, this fits well into the general policy of criminal neglect by the Finnish authorities who wanted to get rid of the "untermenschen" in a "nice way" so as not to provoke much international outrage.
                        Same methods were used by Finnish as well as by Soviet health officials on their respective civilians at the time so there was nothing strange in it. I guess for you it would have been more humane to leave the civilians die from diseases instead.

                        This is what the laws of war are for - to avoid murders of hospital patients, otherwise everyone could attack them at will, referring later to "being unable to recognise them". The "unability to see in the night" is rubbish - before one secretly attacks a base, one doesn't attack it at random, but gets at least an approximate idea of its layout and facilities. Given that the Finns didn't have any artillery or anything, while breaking into a building and seeing bandaged people in beds they could have a clue these were hospital patients, right?
                        To allow hospital to be protected in war the area must be clearly marked regardless of the conditions - as stated in the conventions. Ie. red cross signs need to be lit at night. Finns knew - as was the case in reality - that Petrovsky Jam was used as supply base making it valid target so they attacked and torched the buildings. Finns used thermite charges (incendiary devices based on thermite reaction). They did not need to break into any building.

                        And I told you that sending them to German-occupied Russia (there could be no "Russia proper" after the Nazi-Finnish victory), would be almost equal to sending Jews to Germany. Those who would not be executed, would become slaves. Well, this also fits into the eternal Finnish policy of doing dirty things with others' hands and pretending to be nice guys afterwards
                        Finns actually believed there to be some sort of Soviet or Russian state there regardless of what Germans achieved.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                        • #13
                          The comment about the "Dear Ally the Great Britain" applying pressure to Sweden to refrain from selling 30,000 sets of clothing to Finland is of interest. I cannot imagine the U.K.being able to exert much leverage upon neutral Sweden regarding such a matter, and besides, what would be the point ?

                          More info, please ?
                          Trade embargo. Sweden was still able in limited amounts to have connections outside of German dominated Europe. At least that was the reason what Swedes reported as the cause as why not to sale clothing for Finns (strategic resource or something). Also anything Swedes got from British trade was off limits - ie. couldn't be sold further.

                          Vehviläinen, Olli (2002). Finland in the Second World War: Between Germany and Russia.

                          Gunnar Rosen: Suomalaisina Itä-Karjalassa, p 63.

                          Also, I understand that Mannerheim himself, prior to the outbreak of the Winter War, advocated yielding territory on the Karelian Isthmus to allay Soviet fears as to the security of Leningrad- but not as far north as Vyborg (Viipuri) of course.
                          He advocated giving the islands since those were indefensible. As well as making limited border corrections at Isthmus (Terijoki and its surroundings). Which would have been in line with the reasons Soviet claimed to be behind their demands but far short from what Soviets actually demanded.
                          It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                            A most interesting discussion and, as an outsider, I find myself in sympathy with aspects of both the Finnish and the USSR side of the argument. (schizophrenic- me?)[/I]
                            Nyet tavarich, not schizo, it's perfectly normal. My own "point" all along has been that these things were complicated and we'll inevitably have a hard time arriving at any truth here. Which will involve many complexities. While we try to be truthful. But we'll get to a closer approximation and, moreso, a better understanding.
                            The comment about the "Dear Ally the Great Britain" applying pressure to Sweden to refrain from selling 30,000 sets of clothing to Finland is of interest. I cannot imagine the U.K.being able to exert much leverage upon neutral Sweden regarding such a matter, and besides, what would be the point ? More info, please ?

                            In 1944 Sweden agreed to send (badly needed) foodstuff and armaments to Finland, if it helps Finland to get out of Germany's grip. They did. (ShAA, after Denmark and Norway fell, Finland was totally isolated, and SU wasn't exactly willing to sell goods even in mid 1940.)

                            An interesting alternate timeline would be, what if France & Britain persuaded Sweden to sell all the ore (and ball bearings) to themselves? Sweden had enough oomph to reject any hostile German reaction. In the timeline this would/could take a half million German troops (icluding Mountain divisions) elsewhere, assuming no Norway campaign. And possibly no SU attack on Finland in 1941 after all. (Remebering Finland *never* attacked Soviet Union.)

                            Also, I understand that Mannerheim himself, prior to the outbreak of the Winter War, advocated yielding territory on the Karelian Isthmus to allay Soviet fears as to the security of Leningrad- but not as far north as Vyborg (Viipuri) of course.

                            True. It's on the parliamentary records. Not that Mannerheim was any political decision maker. Actually he was aware of his personal influence and avoided making political influence like the plague. This is all well recorded, I'd put H. Lunde's "Finland's War Of Choice" (2011) as a somewhat good source.
                            Again, please enlighten me.
                            Not so sure about enlightenment but hopefully useful pointers!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                              1. Driving non-Finnish civilian population in concentration camps with a starvation diet - check
                              There was a shortage of foods in Finland as well. "Starvation diet" is untrue. (I avoid saying "propaganda". Already in 1941 Finland was dependent on Germany for food.)
                              2. Ethnic segregation in terms of education, food supply, employment - check
                              Ethnic segregation, yes. Many innocent Carelians suffered because of this. Food supply? What do you mean? Employment?
                              3. Extremely high mortality rate of Soviet POWs (29%) - check
                              Sources please. It's not "extremely high" if you compare to POWs taken by Axis. And the real figures might be "normal" by WW2 standards. There are records of RKKA POWs getting their first warm meal in the Finnish POW camp. Some of these accounts are PR as well. Let's try to treat this detail on a factual basis? -- That said, I'm willing to accept your figure, if well sourced.

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