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Attack on the U.S.S. Liberty

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  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    My point exactly. You blindly jump to Israel's defense when you're not that inofrmed on the story.
    So far, it seems as if I'm hardly misinformed on the subject in comparison to other posters.

    But hey, I can say the same about you- badmouthing Israel without knowing the details yourself, how much research did you put into this?

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by Golani View Post
    I hadn't had the time to research anything outside my formalities in about 5.5 years and with all due respect, when I do have the time- this ain't on the top of my list.

    What I bring is what I know and what's on the surface.

    Personally I find the notion that Israel knowingly, deliberately and unprovokedly assaulted anything that is U.S dubious at the very best.
    My point exactly. You blindly jump to Israel's defense when you're not that inofrmed on the story.
    As far as why Israel assaulted it--I wouldn't put anything past them if they felt that it was in their best interests.

    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
    Dean Rusk, Johnson's Secretary of State (in the only known instance where he disagreed with the President) wrote:
    "We also lost 34 American lives when, on June 8, the fourth day of the war, the U.S. communications ship Liberty came under air and naval attack. ...Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

    Rusk's memoirs: "As I Saw It" (W.W.Norton, 1990) p388
    Works for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Dean Rusk, Johnson's Secretary of State (in the only known instance where he disagreed with the President) wrote:
    "We also lost 34 American lives when, on June 8, the fourth day of the war, the U.S. communications ship Liberty came under air and naval attack. We were meeting with President Johnson in the White House situation room, considering the implications had the Soviets or Egyptians attacked the ship, when we received word from Tel Aviv that Israeli forces were responsible. That didn't please us, although an Israeli attack on Liberty was far easier to deal with. But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

    Rusk's memoirs: "As I Saw It" (W.W.Norton, 1990) p388

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    PS Every time this topic comes up, Golani tries to defend it but says that he hasn't really had time to research it "yet". It seems like "yet" never comes in his world.
    If you want to tell me something you can talk straight at me.

    I hadn't had the time to research anything outside my formalities in about 5.5 years and with all due respect, when I do have the time- this ain't on the top of my list.

    What I bring is what I know and what's on the surface.

    Personally I find the notion that Israel knowingly, deliberately and unprovokedly assaulted anything that is U.S dubious at the very best.

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    I read the book awhile ago and from what I remember, the Israelis were unresponsive to the author's requests for information.
    As far as what the Israelis hoped to gain, who knows? You have to remember that US/Israel relations weren't as close as they are now. It was only 11 years after the Suez Crisis where we made them (and the UK/FR) back off.
    That being said, I don't know how the ship could have been misidentified so badly. Just the hull numbers ID it as a US ship. I knew that from building plastic models as a pre-teen.
    PS Every time this topic comes up, Golani tries to defend it but says that he hasn't really had time to research it "yet". It seems like "yet" never comes in his world.

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by Jarhead0331 View Post
    Respectfully, these are non-responsive to my question. I am interested in the communication between the jet aircraft involved in the actual attack...not in the communications between the helos sent in by Israel after the one hour onslaught. The fact that the jet aircraft comms have not been made public, if that is the case, is troubling.
    Again, I do not know if they were made public or not, so don't assume that just because I don't post it they are still 'secret'.

    OTOH, only 43 years have past, IIRC unless there's a special reason archive items such as this will only be uncovered at the 50 years mark, again, unless there's good enough reason not to release them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jarhead0331
    replied
    Originally posted by Golani View Post
    Check out post #31 in the "Fresh" link, it has links to the NSA site which carries 3 recordings of the communication between IAF planes and their tower.

    No. 1 is between Tower and 2 rescue helicopters, citizenship of the stranded still unknown.

    No. 2 Tower informs- if the survivors are Egyptian take them to El-Arish, if they are American bring them back to Lod (BG international airport and a former, then active, IAF base)

    No. 3 Chopper pilot's communication with Navy vessels, he identifies no American flag.
    Respectfully, these are non-responsive to my question. I am interested in the communication between the jet aircraft involved in the actual attack...not in the communications between the helos sent in by Israel after the one hour onslaught. The fact that the jet aircraft comms have not been made public, if that is the case, is troubling.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Golani View Post
    I have a copy of that on my "to read" shelf waiting in line...

    I know that Oren also released an article on the matter (don't know if it's independent or just a part from the book) that should be available online.
    The book is very well researched and well written... I think you'll find it well worth the time to read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    Michael B. Oren's Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East has a very good account of the inadvertant attack on USS Liberty, much of it from the IDF perspective.
    I have a copy of that on my "to read" shelf waiting in line...

    I know that Oren also released an article on the matter (don't know if it's independent or just a part from the book) that should be available online.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Michael B. Oren's Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East has a very good account of the inadvertant attack on USS Liberty, much of it from the IDF perspective.

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by Jarhead0331 View Post
    Have the transcripts of the communications by and between the Israeli pilots involved in the identification and subsequent attack ever been released and made public?
    Check out post #31 in the "Fresh" link, it has links to the NSA site which carries 3 recordings of the communication between IAF planes and their tower.

    No. 1 is between Tower and 2 rescue helicopters, citizenship of the stranded still unknown.

    No. 2 Tower informs- if the survivors are Egyptian take them to El-Arish, if they are American bring them back to Lod (BG international airport and a former, then active, IAF base)

    No. 3 Chopper pilot's communication with Navy vessels, he identifies no American flag.
    Once again, the majority of "substantive" documents in the links you posted appear to be US generated. There appears to be no question that parts of the US government attempted to white wash the incident in order to not only exonerate the Navy and the NSA, but to protect the Israelis from both domestic and foreign political fallout. As such, I believe the US materials are questionable and am much more interested in Israeli documentation. However, I do not have the time to sift through and translate documents in Hebrew. This is something that should have already been done...
    Honestly- I never burrowed in this incident, I assume there are Israeli books on the subject, but I never had interest in them, just trying to be of assistance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jarhead0331
    replied
    Have the Israeli recon and attack pilots ever been interviewed? Have the transcripts of the communications by and between the Israeli pilots involved in the identification and subsequent attack ever been released and made public? Once again, the majority of "substantive" documents in the links you posted appear to be US generated. There appears to be no question that parts of the US government attempted to white wash the incident in order to not only exonerate the Navy and the NSA, but to protect the Israelis from both domestic and foreign political fallout. As such, I believe the US materials are questionable and am much more interested in Israeli documentation. However, I do not have the time to sift through and translate documents in Hebrew. This is something that should have already been done...

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
    According to IDF it was a matter of mistaken id.

    Now if you can believe that I got some ocean front property in Kansas that I can make you a good deal on.
    You obviously haven't bothered with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    According to IDF it was a matter of mistaken id.

    Now if you can believe that I got some ocean front property in Kansas that I can make you a good deal on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Golani
    replied
    I'm including 3 links that are by no means "scholar" level but might lead to some, they are intentionally Hebrew, but you can google translate them:

    http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/page...ubContrassID=2

    http://www.kr8.co.il/BRPortal/br/P102.jsp?arc=16751

    http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=2500

    This link (English) was cited by a senior researcher as 'the most reliable' and that the data was produced in cooperation with the Israeli Air Force and Navy:
    http://www.thelibertyincident.com/

    Beside I highly recommend reading the full thread in the 3rd link (fresh.co.il) it raises a few good points.

    Leave a comment:

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