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The Right to Bear Arms? What History Tells Us.

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  • Originally posted by Miss You View Post
    A well regulated militia is one that is uniformly armed. Every member of a "well regulated militia" should be equipped with the same type of arms and receive the same training in how to use them.
    Yes, all well and good, but what happens when you go to war and you need combined arms. That's when one boy with a penchant for shooting straight gets a rifle, another who doesn't gets an MG, and the worst shot ends up with a bazooka or flamethrower.
    Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
    (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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    • Originally posted by legaleagle_45 View Post
      The concept of detterance raises its head.
      I'd suggest Deterrence keep its head down, since in this debate and with his nuts obviously- as you say- lost already, it might take a bullet through the forehead.
      Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
      (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

      Comment


      • ...the people being armed does not hurt the well regulated militia.
        The meaning of "people" doesn't coincide with that of "well regulated militia." There was a rule for such a case, when the Constitution was made. The rule said nothing about the means hurting the end.

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        • The way I chose to read the 2nd amendment is that a well regulated militia has the right to keep and bear arms -- and the people < me > have a right to keep and bear arms -- that's my story and I'm sticking to it
          I like Dogs far better than most People

          As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

          BoRG

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          • Originally posted by Miss You View Post
            The meaning of "people" doesn't coincide with that of "well regulated militia." There was a rule for such a case, when the Constitution was made. The rule said nothing about the means hurting the end.
            Again you demonstrate you inability to read and understand. From Madison, Federalist #40:

            There are two rules of construction, dictated by plain reason, as well as founded on legal axioms. The one is, that every part of the expression ought, if possible, to be allowed some meaning, and be made to conspire to some common end. The other is, that where the several parts cannot be made to coincide, the less important should give way to the more important part; the means should be sacrificed to the end, rather than the end to the means.

            Suppose, then, that the expressions defining the authority of the convention were irreconcilably at variance with each other; that a NATIONAL and ADEQUATE GOVERNMENT could not possibly, in the judgment of the convention, be affected by ALTERATIONS and PROVISIONS in the ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION; which part of the definition ought to have been embraced, and which rejected? Which was the more important, which the less important part? Which the end; which the means?
            http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed40.asp

            When Madison says "cannot be made to coincide", what he means is "irreconcilably at variance". The latter interpretation is confirmed by Blackstone, Bacon, Coke, etc, etc, etc, etc... The former interpretation is only asserted by... well you. Thats it. Nobody else has that screwy interpretation.... and speaking of your screwy interpretations, you still did not answer Torien's question. I will rephrase it:

            Please explain how you arrived at your remarkable conclusion that Tucker was praising the English for disarming the population of England.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Miss You View Post
              The meaning of the word "people" and that of "well regulated militia" cannot be reconciled except by including only that which they have in common. The only thing the two have in common are the people who are members of a well organized, well armed and well trained militia. Thus, we construe the word "people" to mean only the people who are members of the organized, armed and trained militia, over which Congress was granted sole and exclusive authority under Article One Section Eight.
              So those People are the only citizens effected by the other 9 Amendments in the Bill of Rights? Only Militia members have Freedom of speech? Freedom of Religion? Etc.
              History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
              _________
              BoRG
              __________
              "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                Gun owership plays a very small roll in being free. Have you ever counted the countries that every second male is running around with an AK47?

                There are few if any freedoms that Americans have that the other members of the G8 don't share, including gun owership.
                Those "few freedoms" include Freedom of Speech. A right that the UK & France don't extend to their Citizens. Not sure about the rest of the G8 though.
                History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
                _________
                BoRG
                __________
                "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Miss You View Post
                  If that were the case, the lawmakers would have included a clause in the Second Amendment which said that "a weapon under the bed being necessary in case someone comes to take the women, children, weapons for any other possessions..."


                  ********************


                  "The English language was carefully culled", by the butt monkeys who wrote the Second Amendment, "to find words feeble in their Nature or doubtful in their meaning!"
                  So now the Founding Father's are "butt monkeys"?!?

                  Excellent repartee.
                  History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
                  _________
                  BoRG
                  __________
                  "I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
                    The way I chose to read the 2nd amendment is that a well regulated militia has the right to keep and bear arms -- and the people < me > have a right to keep and bear arms -- that's my story and I'm sticking to it
                    So where is the "regulated"?
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Torien View Post
                      Those "few freedoms" include Freedom of Speech. A right that the UK & France don't extend to their Citizens. Not sure about the rest of the G8 though.
                      “The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious human rights: hence every citizen may speak, write, print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be determined by Law.” Freedom of speech, thus defined by Article 11 of the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen has achieved universal scope worldwide. The article inspired the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the United Nations on 10 December 1948 (Art. 19) and the European Convention on Human Rights adopted on 4 November 1950 (Art. 10).
                      http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Freedom...he-French.html



                      You have never been to London. If you get the chance go to Hyde Park and stop at speakers corner.

                      Freedom of Speech , American Style, still has it's limits. Inciting to riot is forbidden IIRC.

                      I doubt that any country has totally free speech. If you don't believe me threaten the President of the US. See ya when ya get back:

                      HP
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • When Madison says "cannot be made to coincide", what he means is "irreconcilably at variance".
                        The meanings of "well regulated militia" and "people" are "irreconcilably at variance".

                        Comment


                        • Please explain how you arrived at your remarkable conclusion that Tucker was praising the English for disarming the population of England.
                          It doesn't matter, because the lawmakers didn't make the Constitution to be construed according to whether or not Tucker praised the English.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Torien View Post
                            So those People are the only citizens effected by the other 9 Amendments in the Bill of Rights? Only Militia members have Freedom of speech? Freedom of Religion? Etc.
                            Don't be silly...

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                            • Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                              You have never been to London. If you get the chance go to Hyde Park and stop at speakers corner.
                              A remarkable place. Quintessentially English. Anyone with a box to stand on and a voice loud enough to be heard can talk. A lot of drivel mind you, but at least some people listen.

                              All within a mile of both Buckingham Palace and the site of the former Tyburn Gallows (Marble Arch).
                              Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                              (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Torien View Post
                                So now the Founding Father's are "butt monkeys"?!?

                                Excellent repartee.
                                The First U. S. Congress, most of them anyway, were butt monkeys, at least when it came to drafting the Amendments to the Constitution, because the Amendments were "calculated merely to amuse, or rather to deceive." James Madison's doctor said so.
                                Last edited by Miss You; 18 Nov 08, 08:32.

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