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Scientists: Underground Stone Rings Made by Neanderthals

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  • Scientists: Underground Stone Rings Made by Neanderthals

    Our opinion of Neanderthals has been based on limited data, that opinion is now being expanded..

    BERLIN — Two mysterious stone rings found deep inside a French cave were probably built by Neanderthals about 176,500 years ago, proving that the ancient cousins of humans were capable of more complex behavior than previously thought, scientists say.

    The structures were made from hundreds of pillar-shaped mineral deposits, called stalagmites, which were chopped to a similar length and laid out in two oval patterns up to 40 centimeters (16 inches) inches high. They were discovered by chance in 1990, after remaining untouched for tens of thousands of years because a rockslide had closed the mouth of the cave at Bruniquel in southwest France.

    While previous research had suggested the structures pre-dated the arrival of modern humans in Europe around 45,000 years ago, the notion that Neanderthals could have made them didn't fit long-held assumptions that these early humans were incapable of the kind of complex behavior necessary to work underground.

    Using sophisticated dating techniques, a team led by archaeologist Jacques Jaubert of the University of Bordeaux, France, found that the stalagmites must have been broken off the ground around 176,500 years ago "making these edifices among the oldest known well-dated constructions made by humans."

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016...hal-ruins.html
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

  • #2
    Apparently they would have had to be constructed entirely by firelight which in itself cannot have been easy. It is not known if they were of ceremonial/religious significance or had some practical purpose for people living deep in a cave away from the extra cold period the climate was going through at the time The ground inside the circles is glazed over with limestone from stalactite drippings and until a way has been found to break through this without disturbing too much it isn't possible to tell what, if anything, the rings contained.
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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    • #3
      So Trump supporters built them. The start of his great wall perhaps?
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
        Our opinion of Neanderthals has been based on limited data, that opinion is now being expanded..
        Over time, we have come to realize that Neanderthals were far more advanced than we previously believed.

        Good post.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
          So Trump supporters built them.
          Gosh does that mean they are capable of "complex behavior" too? Whatever next?
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            We know very little about Neanderthals 178,000 year old behavior, or the behavior or any other living species from that era.
            We seem to have a predjudice toward Neanderthals, example:
            At least one of the researchers would rather believe that teenaged Neanderthals could have been responsible for the Ring, but not their parents...
            Huh?
            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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            • #7
              Many species become less flexible in terms of dealing with new things when they reach full adulthood and this includes the great apes. The pathways in the brain become relatively set. Once they have succeeded in breeding and passing on the genes evolution is no longer 'interested' in them, This was propounded by Thomas Henry Huxley and later supported by Sir Julian Huxley. In common parlance "You can't teach an old dog a brand new trick" The success of Homo Sapiens has by some been put down to us being neotenic, ie an animal that never reaches the adult stage even though becoming sexually mature and this has allowed us to retain the learning and creative ability. Aldous Huxley references this in his 1939 novel After 'Many a Summer' when the discovery of a longevity serum results in those taking it finally maturing into randy great apes with limited intellectual capacity that live for a long time. It has been suggested that Neanderthal man's failure was due to them not being neotenic so that the adult would be less creative and flexible than the younger version. This would account for the reaction you quote.
              Last edited by MarkV; 27 May 16, 11:35.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                Many species become less flexible in terms of dealing with new things when they reach full adulthood and this includes the great apes. The pathways in the brain become relatively set. Once they have succeeded in breeding and passing on the genes evolution is no longer 'interested' in them, This was propounded by Thomas Henry Huxley and later supported by Sir Julian Huxley. In common parlance "You can't teach an old dog a brand new trick" The success of Homo Sapiens has by some been put down to us being neotenic, ie an animal that never reaches the adult stage even though becoming sexually mature and this has allowed us to retain the learning and creative ability. Aldous Huxley references this in his 1939 novel After 'Many a Summer' when the discovery of a longevity serum results in those taking it finally maturing into randy great apes with limited intellectual capacity that live for a long time. It has been suggested that Neanderthal man's failure was due to them not being neotenic so that the adult would be less creative and flexible than the younger version. This would account for the reaction you quote.
                How well did Huxley know the Neanderthals?
                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                  How well did Huxley know the Neanderthals?
                  They summered together in the Hamptons.
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                  • #10
                    You mean they were Democrats!? Clear back then?
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                      How well did Huxley know the Neanderthals?
                      Huxley came up with the theory of various species being less flexible in the last adult stages. Others have since applied the concept of neotenisim as an explanation of why homo sapiens avoided this evolutionary cul-de-sac. There are a number of neotenic species known where developing into an extended juvenile stage has given them advantages
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                        They summered together in the Hamptons.
                        No the Neanderthals were a bit conservative - they still went to Newport where the Vanderbilts used to summer.

                        Have you heard
                        It really stinked
                        One more ice age and we went extinct
                        Well did you ever
                        What a swell party that was.
                        Last edited by MarkV; 28 May 16, 13:31.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Given that the Neanderthals were physically very similar to modern humans I would imagine they were individually very close to us in cognitive ability and overall intelligence. IIRC it was humanity's ability to communicate that gave us a leg up over them.
                          Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                            Huxley came up with the theory of various species being less flexible in the last adult stages. Others have since applied the concept of neotenisim as an explanation of why homo sapiens avoided this evolutionary cul-de-sac. There are a number of neotenic species known where developing into an extended juvenile stage has given them advantages
                            Well it was a good theroy, maybe it is true of those with short life spans, but .... We know that is not true of all species, elephants for example, horses and other animals that have long life spans, it would make sense that those with longer life spans would have to be capable of learning throughout its life, adapt to changes in weather cycles, follow food.
                            Neanderthals must have been capable of padding on basic knowledge, learning new skills etc.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                              Well it was a good theroy, maybe it is true of those with short life spans, but .... We know that is not true of all species, elephants for example, horses and other animals that have long life spans, it would make sense that those with longer life spans would have to be capable of learning throughout its life, adapt to changes in weather cycles, follow food.
                              Neanderthals must have been capable of padding on basic knowledge, learning new skills etc.
                              Don't know about Elephants but it is true of horses.
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                              Comment

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