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  • #16
    Originally posted by Avalon
    It really sounds fascinating. Every bit of considered debate and analysis is vital. There should be more of it.

    Is it a uni paper Richard, or for a publication or for the military ?

    Nope just a paper for my High School Research Writing Class... it was a controversial issue and thats what I picked.
    The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

    Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Avalon
      Paul you're not doing a DipEd are you Heaven help us if you get control of a red texta LOL Your points and Richard's are really interesting.

      I was thinking about that too. Social mores are a big part of it and the other thing that comes to mind, from my own experience, is that often it's not only men who prevent women from moving through glass ceilings, assuming positions of authority, or assuming roles traditionally filled by men, but some of the time it is women. That ties in with the social mores side too, and while sure history has seen women subjugated often by structures put in place by men, women, as a powerful force in society throughout the ages, have tended to reinforce those structures, whether they be women who didn't take on mens established roles and wanted to maintain the status quo and their own power base as distinct from mens, or women who did break through, with or without a battle, but didn't want others to follow. That's not the case for the most part nowdays I don't think, but I have seen it and it has had an effect. When that happens, I see it as being about power and the gender issue as being a bit of a red herring, albeit a very real useful one in the overall sense and to those involved in the issue (ie.to take advantage of it), and it certainly can't be ignored, which is why Richard is tackling it. In fact it's vital to the evolution of modern society to understand what's at play, and indeed, what's at stake. The arguments are multifarious and multifaceted - and fascinating.

      Taboos I see as tied in with the social pressures, not just the sexual side but certainly that too. Sexuality can't be ignored as it is a primal force, but so is eating and sleeping and how badly you want to pull a trigger in any given situation. It's about discipline and self-discipline and respect. The problem arises, not unlike with that border protection issue, when the externally imposed boundaries are solid and uniform (or they too might need improving, ie.when the perception of gender difference causes external boundaries to remain unmodified.), but largely, with the sexual thing, when the internal rules differ from one individual to another. There are always people who are going to break the rules and blame it on somebody else, either because the rules allow it, or if they don't, because the individual maintains a different set of rules and values to those he or she serves under, be they societal or institutional. It is also like the school bullying issue in that it requires continual monitoring, modification, and reinforcement of the rules in order that at the end of the day you have a united and mutually supportive defence force.

      God, it's 5.30am and I need a coffee
      I agree.
      The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

      Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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      • #18
        Good article.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom

          I don't get to implement my beliefs,
          Why not?, were you given a certain argument to follow? As long as your beliefs are in the realm of supportable evidence and stuff like that what stops you?
          Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom
            In the end if a woman is physically and mentally able to perform in combat... and men can change their line of thinking about women what's going to stop her? Its just the line of thinking about how morale and such will drop... but it wouldn't if everyone is considered a soldier.
            Did you read those articles I posted? One addresses the issue of morale.
            Nominated "Wing Nut" by Forum Staff member.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom
              Nope just a paper for my High School Research Writing Class... it was a controversial issue and thats what I picked.
              I'm sure you'll do really well with it. Good on you for taking on a controversial topic. Let us know how you go with it.

              I noticed this site on the subject too, looks very good.
              http://coelacanth.aug.com/captbarb/
              "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Secret Agent
                Did you read those articles I posted? One addresses the issue of morale.
                In my case, I haven't yet SA but I intend to
                "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Avalon
                  I'm sure you'll do really well with it. Good on you for taking on a controversial topic. Let us know how you go with it.

                  I noticed this site on the subject too, looks very good.
                  http://coelacanth.aug.com/captbarb/
                  Yeah, it should be very good for a high school paper, don't mind my comments too much, they are more for a senior level from the one you are at, getting marked for anyway. But they might help in future, at any rate, feel free to ask questions about school work if ya come up with any problems people around you can't help you with.

                  If i was marking, i'd be pretty happy with it, it sets up your position well, and as it is 'research' writting, you have outlined where your diverse resaerch is going to head, and i'm guessing the rest of the paper has as much depth as you have pointed out in the intro. There's many examples like this where histrical as well as contemporary research is going to help, for extra brownie points split your historical research into east(Asia)and west, shows your thinkin outside the hum-drum box. Especially on social issues, different social outlook/practices etc.

                  No, i am not doing a dip ed, i'm just a pedantic perfectionist with work, i have struggled heaps to get where i am at from where i started, the hard work has paid off, and i know through trial and error what aspects get red texta marks on. At least i used lavender, a bit of visual therapy while you read the criticisms

                  Might use a nice sandalwood next time.
                  Last edited by Temujin; 15 Apr 05, 02:10.
                  Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hey Paul. I know exactly where you're coming from and I admire that a great deal. That hard work really does pay off

                    I remember too my first year of uni an older friend of mine got an essay of mine to read over before I handed it in. Well as it turns out she absolutely tore it to shreds with her red pen. I was indignant for about a week, then I sat down and swallowed my pride, taking on board her criticisms, which were very constructive albeit right "out there", and I re-wrote it. I handed it in, and as it turns out, I got a high distinction for it. When she read my second paper, she was amazed and full of praise for it. So it turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to me, particularly as I trusted the person that did it. My whole approach to work and essays changed after that and I ended up doing very well. (so yeah, I know what you mean. I gave up being too pedantic though.. just gave me indigestion )

                    LOL, I like lavender, and sandalwood We sell the best sandalwood incense to Asia now too don't we ?
                    "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                    • #25
                      It's interesting too, and you still see it today, how when the Celts were finally overcome by the force of Christianity, especially in Ireland with St Patrick's arrival, they still retained a lot of Celtic traditions and melded them with Christian ones. Same with the survival of the language. I think too that the Book of Kells is one of the most extraordinary and beautiful examples of the strength of that culture, that beautiful Celtic artwork surrounding the gospels.

                      I think its a bit off the mark to say the Celts were overcome by Christianity.

                      As for Celts that is a modern concept. To the Irish of the time of St Patrick they saw themselves as Gaelsnot Celts.

                      The Book of Kells is indeed a wonderful illustration of Gaelic Art. It was probably started at Iona, a little island off the west coast of Scotland to which St Columba (Columcille) sailed in 563 AD and founded a Monastry there.

                      However the Book was crafted from about the year 800 AD at Iona and then as the threat of Viking Raids increased the monks moved their main centre to Kells in County Meath.

                      If your ever in Dublin you can see the book on display in the Library of Trinity College.
                      http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Avalon
                        In my case, I haven't yet SA but I intend to
                        Be warned! You may not like them! (One is pro- and the other is anti-women in combat).
                        Nominated "Wing Nut" by Forum Staff member.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Good points Wolfe Tone. Yeah I gotta read back over some stuff and get into that again. It's been a while. I'd love to see the Book of Kells. Hopefully we'll get to Dublin one day to do that.

                          Nah really SA, I'd love to read them. I like to see both sides of things and am always open to modifying my thinking if it's a good argument. I can actually see some arguments against it myself. I haven't read those yet, but for example, and this is just a personal view, I don't agree with women who have children going on active duty, particularly while they are young. I think that's unfair on children who should be a priority. If a husband is at home, then maybe, but that's one thing I have a problem with. I also think there is some instinct built in to women that would make it harder to perform certain duties in a confrontational situation, which is why I couldn't do it personally unless it was a dire situation. However, having said that, I think the issue is not really one of gender, but one of proven ability. I think there are women who can do that and do it extremely well and women should always have the same opportunities to prove themselves and perform the tasks they undertake. When it does become a level playing field, which is the direction it's taking, it will ultimately be about who is most capable and fit for the job, about performance, and if you're not up to it, male or female, you're out. The problem with getting to that point is getting past prejudices and all that other stuff.

                          When I have a read of those articles I'll throw in a few more ideas.
                          "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                          • #28
                            My problem is not so much can they (that has been proven) but should they. The article against it pointed out some things I hadn't thought about too much before.
                            Nominated "Wing Nut" by Forum Staff member.

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                            • #29
                              Mmmm, very interesting articles SA. I must say that the "pro" argument covered a lot of the points I was thinking about earlier. The second article, I'm still gritting my teeth and waiting for the valium to set in Not that she doesn't raise some interesting points, she does, but she is an academic who appears to simply have taken an opposing view to be her thesis and was subsequently determined to validate it with little evidence.

                              Whereas the two writers of the "pro' article are military people and they substantiate their points with evidence and workable proposals, the other is an academic who is following the old idealogy, making sex and fear the main issues and offering no real evidence and few solutions to any quantifiable problems that "might" arise. She offers too many "mights" and not enough proof, and she makes claims and then fails to back them up. She does inadvertently get somewhere near the heart of the matter at times, but does nothing to push the argument forward in a useful way. It would be interesting to take all her points and examine them at some stage. It's not just the paucity or the flimsiness of her thesis that bothers me, it's the tabloid approach I think. She didn't convince me I guess is what I mean too. But as I say, some of what she says is quite useful and valid but it needs more fleshing out to my way of thinking.

                              Mim
                              "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                              • #30
                                Thanks Mim, saved me the trouble of reading it, not that i was going to, but now i don't have to consider it either, maybe a speedy scan.
                                Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                                Comment

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