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  • Women Warriors

    6000 Years of Women Warriors
    Stay Alert, Stay Alive!

  • #2
    JIM THANK YOU!!! I needed another source for my paper. This is just beautiful...
    The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

    Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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    • #3
      Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom
      JIM THANK YOU!!! I needed another source for my paper. This is just beautiful...
      BB, I guess Jim's site kinda took care of all of your references.

      BTW, how did your paper turn out?
      Lance W.

      Peace through superior firepower.

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      • #4
        Still in the process of being written... Although I've found many sources. Its supposed to be over a controversial issue. Well this one is Women in Combat. I'm stuck with a pro view (Over many issues I'm split this is one I'm split with) so I'm making a body paragraph a historical once and another the current issues and current performance of women in combat (which for some is quite good, others it isn't just like men you are made for it or you aren't)
        The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

        Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

        Comment


        • #5
          http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/P...mmer/field.htm

          http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/P...mer/simons.htm



          Here are a couple of articles that appeared in Parameters; the first is for women in combat, the second against.
          Nominated "Wing Nut" by Forum Staff member.

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          • #6
            How is your paper going Richard? It sounds so interesting !

            Not sure if you have this link. I studied some Celtic studies and classical lit at Uni and often came across women warriors(nearly wrote worriers then LOL )..

            http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/womenrom.html

            Mim
            "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Avalon
              How is your paper going Richard? It sounds so interesting !

              Not sure if you have this link. I studied some Celtic studies and classical lit at Uni and often came across women warriors(nearly wrote worriers then LOL )..

              http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/womenrom.html

              Mim
              I researched a bit about Celts a while back Avalon, you may be able to verify some of my conceptial understandings for me, i know the Celts are a demanding subject to study more than most others I think, and a university reasearched understanding like yours would be helpfull as I studied it independently before i started uni. It concerns Britain mostly, there may be differences in other European clans.

              Also i am trying to focus on actual knowledge, as best as can be 'actual', without bringing up more modern myths, but i will probably blur the two, hard to distinguish from memory.

              The common perception of Druids, who the were what role they played is not always correct. It is common that people only think of them as some type of holy male priest .
              In fact, they sometimes filled other roles as well as religious ones. Clan leaders, Kings, Queens (or Celtic versions of), Gernerals, Generalesses, or lesser warrior and other administrative roles, as well as cultural curators through story and song.

              Some evidence suggests that Britain was a religious centre, regarding Druid training/education of other European clans, it lasted 21 years consisting of 3 various stages 7 years each. However i have a suspicion this might be a newer perception not altogether true, more modern myth. On the other hand, with most of it being oral learning, it seems valid because that type of learning, which seems to be universal and accurate, would be better served from a centralised area, to avoid diverging patterns caused by distance and many evolving patterns. Also, Britain, as an Island would be less likely to experience cultural 'contamination' from border areas where other goups would mix or have contact with different cultures

              Not sure if all filled all these roles, i think it was in varied combinations, and not exactly rare to see women Druids, but most were men. Also, many think that the Celts didn't have a written language but they did, called ogham or something. It is just that it had very specific uses and histories and mythology was spoken only. I think the ogham had some sort of adminastrative role, if so maybe it was also has numeric elements, as you know it looks numerical. The many roles and importance to a civilised organised society is seen as a reason why they were targeted by the Romans so much and the fact they are reported to be uncouth 'savages' in general was to soften the concept of such genocides, to the Roman poeple.


              Thats about it from memory, a couple of analytical points occurred to me as i was writting so if it is news to you its just me thinking aloud. I have read a bit about them, other aspects and some modern myth, its hard to distinguish sometimes and cross reference to verify my understanding of them. Definately, a unque challenge to study the subject, theres just so much bull and they didn't write much down. One explanation for that, is that they viewed life as an evolving concept, or revolving and they didn't see the need to write things down as it would be a negative effect to its evolution, seems to make sense to me, don't know if its true, ideally its nice to beleive, i don't know why, but anti-conservatism appeals to me

              The artwork, another story with much larger aspects as it survives in artefacts and contempory interpretations, so i'll leave it for another day.

              Edit: OOOPS! Sorry if its a bit off-topic lads, however if the thread develops i will probably participate, i have a few views on the matter, the above is a good example to use in discussion of female roles in general and i would probably use some of it in a discussion like this, so just think of it as background info.
              Last edited by Temujin; 10 Apr 05, 04:23.
              Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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              • #8
                Wow Paul, you've got my neurones firing and it's only 6.30 in the morning . It's a fascinating subject so I'll have to sit down and think about it all before I can do it justice. (Similarly the women in combat discussion - nah it's not too much of a hijack, tis all related..)

                But yeah, the Druids were much more important than popular myth suggests, and they were a huge threat to the Romans who deliberately drove them out of the Celtic areas. Their views and their socio-political methodology severely threatened the Roman orthodoxy, Romans being materialistic and heirarchical as opposed to the the Celts who were much more spiritual and and communal. Romans tended to see women as being mainly child-bearers and objects of pleasure while the Druids involved women in all aspects of social, political and religious life.

                It's certainly hard to escape myth and legend as you say, they didn't write things down. I guess the actions the Romans took and the variety of comment on the part of numerous ancient historians suggests they were a force to be reckoned with and we can derive a lot from that, and those discoveries of art and artifacts. Oh I agree too, all that stuff about "barbarians" in the north.. yes well I dont' want to diss fox news (okay I do just a little bit) or dare I utter the word 'tampa' but, yeah, the more things change, the more things stay the same.. it was superb propaganda to justify their actions and make everyone fearful and happy about the governments actions.

                Boudicca, Queen of the Iceni comes to mind, how she led the revolt after they massacred the Druids on Anglesey, which says something about womens roles among the celts.

                It's interesting too, and you still see it today, how when the Celts were finally overcome by the force of Christianity, especially in Ireland with St Patrick's arrival, they still retained a lot of Celtic traditions and melded them with Christian ones. Same with the survival of the language. I think too that the Book of Kells is one of the most extraordinary and beautiful examples of the strength of that culture, that beautiful Celtic artwork surrounding the gospels.

                Now I'm rambling, but it's just so interesting. I'll get back to you shortly on those points you raise Paul.

                As for women going to war nowdays, I'd have to think that through and put in my 2 cents as well. I see some interesting arguments there both for and against actually.

                Mim
                Attached Files
                "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                • #9
                  Disclaimer - I'm sure I was at the pub watching theatresports for half my time at uni (just in case you ask me anything that requires my memory to actually work)..

                  I have a couple of very good books on the subject that I'll dig out and let you know about too.
                  Last edited by Avalon; 10 Apr 05, 15:53. Reason: adding something
                  "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                  • #10
                    A taste of my paper... the Intro:

                    The chivalrous, or even possibly male, image of women is that they are helpless “creatures” that need protection afforded by strong men. This image has been maintained through history. This seems to have become intrinsic to the modern age woman as well, and as contributed to a large issue that affects both men and women: Can women perform and participate in combat? Women have been and are capable of tactically fighting wars as well as strategically organizing them; this stays true throughout history, and the modern ages, both in the United States and foreign countries. But it seems that the biggest problem for women to make their way into combat units is the breaking of male and female taboos which requires effort from “both sides of the fence.”
                    The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                    Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Richard, your intro is excellent. I'm intrigued. The idea of taboos is a great one to explore, and the nature and structure of those barriers.. where they arise from (definately both sides)how they can be broken down.. indeed if some of them should or shouldn't be broken down. Well I hope you can share more of it at some stage. I would certainly like to read it one day when you are finished !

                      I still have to dig out my Celtic books and add some more thoughts to what you were saying too Paul as you raise so many interesting points. I shall return
                      "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BarcelonaBlom
                        A taste of my paper... the Intro:

                        The chivalrous,i think 'masculine' is a better word for your purposes or even possibly male, image of women is that they are helpless “creatures” that need protection afforded by strong men. This image has been maintained through historyI'd define it to 'western' history, covers europe and new world, covers your but if your marker is a history buff on amazons or something like that.. This seems to have become intrinsic to the modern age woman as well, and as contributed to a large issue that affects both men and women: Can women perform and participate in combat? Women have been this is hypocritical of the 'through history' bit, maybe need to refine and define your statements and argument moreand are capable of tactically fighting wars as well as strategically organizing them; this stays truemore countering of your previous statements throughout history, and the modern ages, both in the United States and foreignthats not very good practice in history or any field, the use of 'foreign' countries. But it seems that the biggest problem for women to make their way into combat units is the breaking of male and female taboos does that mean they should be promiscuous?which requires effort from “both sides of the fence.”

                        I added some comments in the text, hope its helpfull.

                        Also, what is your argument? Are you going to bring in social mores and show how this follows them into the service and is hard to break from? your intro just says, yes they can fight, but both sexes need to adapt. Thats ok, but the social aspect needs to be looked at and discussed, otherwise your argument might look weak, someone might say, 'well its just human nature that they will play up', which is bull of course.
                        Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Paul you're not doing a DipEd are you Heaven help us if you get control of a red texta LOL Your points and Richard's are really interesting.

                          I was thinking about that too. Social mores are a big part of it and the other thing that comes to mind, from my own experience, is that often it's not only men who prevent women from moving through glass ceilings, assuming positions of authority, or assuming roles traditionally filled by men, but some of the time it is women. That ties in with the social mores side too, and while sure history has seen women subjugated often by structures put in place by men, women, as a powerful force in society throughout the ages, have tended to reinforce those structures, whether they be women who didn't take on mens established roles and wanted to maintain the status quo and their own power base as distinct from mens, or women who did break through, with or without a battle, but didn't want others to follow. That's not the case for the most part nowdays I don't think, but I have seen it and it has had an effect. When that happens, I see it as being about power and the gender issue as being a bit of a red herring, albeit a very real useful one in the overall sense and to those involved in the issue (ie.to take advantage of it), and it certainly can't be ignored, which is why Richard is tackling it. In fact it's vital to the evolution of modern society to understand what's at play, and indeed, what's at stake. The arguments are multifarious and multifaceted - and fascinating.

                          Taboos I see as tied in with the social pressures, not just the sexual side but certainly that too. Sexuality can't be ignored as it is a primal force, but so is eating and sleeping and how badly you want to pull a trigger in any given situation. It's about discipline and self-discipline and respect. The problem arises, not unlike with that border protection issue, when the externally imposed boundaries are solid and uniform (or they too might need improving, ie.when the perception of gender difference causes external boundaries to remain unmodified.), but largely, with the sexual thing, when the internal rules differ from one individual to another. There are always people who are going to break the rules and blame it on somebody else, either because the rules allow it, or if they don't, because the individual maintains a different set of rules and values to those he or she serves under, be they societal or institutional. It is also like the school bullying issue in that it requires continual monitoring, modification, and reinforcement of the rules in order that at the end of the day you have a united and mutually supportive defence force.

                          God, it's 5.30am and I need a coffee
                          "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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                          • #14
                            Its written kinda historically. Thanks for the editing... kinda too late for me to implement some things though... Mainly I looked at history as a gauge of whether females can perform in combat.. and you see the ones that do great like Boudica and Lt. Pavlichenko and such and others who fail. Then I took a quick look at foreign countries (mostly their histories but an in-depth look at Canada) and then the US and policies that are being proposed by congress or people.

                            In the end if a woman is physically and mentally able to perform in combat... and men can change their line of thinking about women what's going to stop her? Its just the line of thinking about how morale and such will drop... but it wouldn't if everyone is considered a soldier.

                            Anyways my paper is good for the requiremnts given but I think its very weak just because 1) I don't get to implement my beliefs, 2) I was limited on size and sources.
                            The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                            Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It really sounds fascinating. Every bit of considered debate and analysis is vital. There should be more of it.

                              Is it a uni paper Richard, or for a publication or for the military ?
                              "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

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