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The Shroud of Turin

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  • The Shroud of Turin

    As far as I'm concerned The Shroud of Turin is a real mystery. The deniers say its a fraud, but can't come up with a method to make it...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
    As far as I'm concerned The Shroud of Turin is a real mystery. The deniers say its a fraud, but can't come up with a method to make it...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin
    Archaeological forensic analysis would dictate it is genuine. Reason? The nail wounds are in the wrists. People who claim it's a medieval fake forget that fakers make relics the way they THINK the relics look. Thanks to some translation confusion medieval people thought Jesus was nailed through the hands. A faker would therefore put the wounds there. The nail marks in the wrists disprove the notion of a medieval forgery.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
      The nail marks in the wrists disprove the notion of a medieval forgery.
      Too categoric, IMHO. The 'forger' may have had access to some unique information about Roman customs not widely available to the general public.

      In teaching my students (agricultural researchers) the techniques of writing research papers, I emphasize the scientific convention of using what I term 'tentative verbs' when a conclusion cannot be 100% verified.

      In the above case, I'd suggest the tentative verb should be 'tend to'. As in:

      "The nail marks in the wrists tend to disprove the notion of a medieval forgery."


      Philip
      Last edited by PhilipLaos; 28 Dec 12, 20:17.
      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

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      • #4
        New topic, new thread. Enjoy.
        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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        • #5
          Not that it matters all that much to me, but didn't carbon dating place it in the 13th or 14th century at about 95% probability?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by llkinak View Post
            Not that it matters all that much to me, but didn't carbon dating place it in the 13th or 14th century at about 95% probability?
            Yes, by three different teams. However, the shroud was repaired several times with patches and there is contention that the swatch taken for those carbon dating tests may not represent the entire shroud. The fabric weave pattern is consistent with what was found in the dead sea and Syria circa first century.
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            BoRG

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PhilipLaos View Post
              Too categoric, IMHO. The 'forger' may have had access to some unique information about Roman customs not widely available to the general public.
              Not unless that unique information was a time machine. Crucifixion was a lost, pardon the term, science until well after the middle ages. Forget general public, even the well read monasterial elite didn't know.

              And even if the church knew and commissioned a fake with that knowledge they would still have put the nail marks in the hands because that's what the PUBLIC would expect to see. Whoever posessed that knowledge would still put the nails in the palms because you're selling what the other guy wants/expects to see and not what is.

              From a forensic art detective standpoint it just doesn't pan. I suppose you could say it MIGHT be possible. But on those odds you're also giving weight to my hunch that dinosaurs and human beings briefly coexisted. If you can make a case for medieval shroud I can make a case for dinoburgers.

              For the record, you can speculate it's a forgery if you really really want to. You just can't with any intellectual grounding call it a MEDIEVAL one. That's the kicker. Whatever this was, it was ancient.
              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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              • #8
                One hurdle is that Jesus wasn't the only person that the Romans ever crucified. If it is genuine, it could as easily be Barabbas or anyone else. So we end up back at belief rather than reason.

                Like the shroud of Turin, there are those who insist the the portrait of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a mystery that no one can explain. Even my otherwise wise professor in Uni insisted that it was so. Yet, to my simple eyes, it is a 16th Century portrait. If it was truly unique, it would look more like a photograph. And as for the mystery of the blooming roses, drive on the road running from Cuernavaca to Acapulco anytime in the winter and you see field after field or roses, and people selling them by the highway.

                It's a matter of personal belief, and not science. You can't prove it's not is not a worthy argument.
                dit: Lirelou

                Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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                • #9
                  Fake, period. Believe what you will.

                  According to Dr. Walter McCrone and his colleagues, the 3+ by 14+ foot cloth depicting Christ’s crucified body is an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist just before its first appearance in recorded history in 1356.

                  The faint sepia image is made up of billions of submicron pigment particles (red ochre and vermilion) in a collagen tempera medium. The pigments red ochre and vermilion with the collagen tempera medium was a common paint composition during the 14th century; before which, no one had ever heard of the Shroud.
                  http://mcri.org/home/section/63-64/the-shroud-of-turin
                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  youre entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    Fake, period. Believe what you will.

                    According to Dr. Walter McCrone and his colleagues, the 3+ by 14+ foot cloth depicting Christs crucified body is an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist just before its first appearance in recorded history in 1356.



                    http://mcri.org/home/section/63-64/the-shroud-of-turin
                    And according to Mark Anderson who was McCrone's microscopy expert, McCrone was selective with his data in order to prove that exact point.
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                      One hurdle is that Jesus wasn't the only person that the Romans ever crucified. If it is genuine, it could as easily be Barabbas or anyone else. So we end up back at belief rather than reason.
                      I'd guess the 'crown of thorns' and side wound seen in the shroud are cited as evidence that the image is that of the crucified Jesus.



                      Tyler's arguments are interesting but hardly amount to conclusive proof. I'm not convinced either way, but if the shroud were to be proven to have the image of the crucified Christ, what would that prove? It would be an important historical relic, but would only prove that Jesus lived and was crucified.

                      I don't think anyone disputes that, do they?


                      Philip
                      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

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                      • #12
                        What gets my attention was that the last time we got our hands on it we shrugged...

                        We couldn't figure it out.

                        Nasa that is.

                        We don't know how it was made, they didn't have reverse photography, ect...
                        Credo quia absurdum.


                        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                          And according to Mark Anderson who was McCrone's microscopy expert, McCrone was selective with his data in order to prove that exact point.
                          What, to prove it is paint and not blood stains?
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          youre entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                          • #14
                            http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm

                            Another side.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            youre entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                            • #15
                              I found this a great show, enjoy...

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyiZ...851EE2&index=1

                              Sorry about being not able to do the whole show, but check it out...

                              Hp thanks for the open mind...
                              Credo quia absurdum.


                              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                              Comment

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