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  • Counting my TOEs

    I'm developing a combined arms tactical game (How to Make War) and I need to represent TOEs from Division down to platoon. I've followed various sources but most lack details and so in many places I've had to guess.

    If anyone has any reliable knowledge to improve on these TOEs, I'd be most grateful:

    Nazi Germany (1943)

    21A Panzer Division

    15I Panzergrenadier Division

    5I Infantry Division

    Soviet Union (1943)

    6A Tank Corps

    3M Mechanized Corps

    4I Infantry Division

    Syria (1973)

    1A Tank Division

    3A Tank Division

    5I Infantry Division

    7I Infantry Division

    9I Infantry Division

    2H Heavy Artillery Brigade

    Egypt (1973)

    2I Infantry Division

    16I Infantry Division

    18I Infantry Division

    21A Tank Division

    23M Mechanized Infantry Division

    Israel, North (1973)

    36A Armor Division

    240A Armor Division

    146A Armor Division

    8P-0 Parachute Infantry Brigade

    9H-0 Artillery Brigade

    Israel, South (1973)

    162A Armor Division

    143A Armor Division

    252A Armor Division

    United States (1973)

    1A Armor Division

    3I Mechanized Infantry Division

    1C Cavalry Division

    82P Airborne Division

    101P Airmobile Division

    5M Marine Division

    Soviet Union (1973)

    1A Tank Division

    2I Motor Rifle Division

    3P Parachute Division

  • #2
    Are you looking to follow correct unit numbers and names or are you looking to keep it on the Division level?

    In first glance I noticed some problems, for example IIRC an Armored division usually had 2 armored bde. 1 infantry bde. 1 engineer battalion and 1 artillery battery, but I'll try to go into details when you tell me what exactly you're looking for...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Golani View Post
      Are you looking to follow correct unit numbers and names or are you looking to keep it on the Division level?

      In first glance I noticed some problems, for example IIRC an Armored division usually had 2 armored bde. 1 infantry bde. 1 engineer battalion and 1 artillery battery, but I'll try to go into details when you tell me what exactly you're looking for...
      For the 73 Yom Kippur War I do want to get the top level division OB right but, in general, and especially with respect to the Israelis (because I have more confidence in the Egytian and Syrian orgs) I'm concerned with the lower level organizations.

      Just FYI, each of the units in the above list is a hyperlink to the full organization where you can see it in it's entire depth.

      Where I have done the most guessing is on the HQ companies. Even where I had sources, the sources I had were mostly other wargames.

      Comment


      • #4
        That's a pretty big list. Depending on how much detail you want, I can offer some thoughts on the 1943 German Divs.

        For the opposing Soviet forces, I'd recommend the Red Army Handbook, or Companion as I think the reprint is titled.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Gary Kennedy View Post
          That's a pretty big list. Depending on how much detail you want, I can offer some thoughts on the 1943 German Divs.

          For the opposing Soviet forces, I'd recommend the Red Army Handbook, or Companion as I think the reprint is titled.
          For the WW2 Germans and Soviets I'm not so interested in a complete list of divisions, those there are only representative, but in their actual composition.

          Follow the link and you'll see what I have now. What's there is based mostly on the campaign booklets that came with Panzer Blitz and Panzer Leader.

          Is this the book:

          http://www.amazon.com/Army-Handbook-.../dp/0750917407

          Comment


          • #6
            Yep, that should give you the basics for the Red Army.

            Problem with the German Divs is they were to subject to variations at the best of times, and 1943 saw an attempt to transition to 'new type' formations to muddy the picture even further.

            I had a quick look through the schematics you've got for units currently. I've spent a long time trying to study the 'real' organisations and to be honest I can never properly follow the 'war game' versions.

            If you're content to know a Staff Company for a Panzer Grenadier Regiment for eg would have;

            Regimental Staff
            Signals Platoon
            Anti-tank Platoon (3 Pak40)
            Scout Platoon (two or three Squads)

            Then I can put some stuff together for you fairly easily that you can take as you find it. Detailed theoretical personnel, weapons and vehicle strengths though are too...detailed!

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            • #7
              Just a quick question that would ease up my time.

              Did you ever play TOAW?

              I once did this all for 2 scenarios at TOAW (one for the Golan Heights and one for the Suez Canal but didn't save the documents, I still have the scenarios themselves to drain info form...)

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              • #8
                Is that "The Operational Art of War"? I've never played it but looked it up. Please post or send whatever you have.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gary Kennedy View Post
                  Yep, that should give you the basics for the Red Army.
                  Thanks. Is there an equivalent for the German Army? Americans and Brits?

                  Problem with the German Divs is they were to subject to variations at the best of times, and 1943 saw an attempt to transition to 'new type' formations to muddy the picture even further.
                  Well, this is always a problem, the organizations were changing rapidly with experience. I'm more interested in paper organization than actual reflecting losses though obviously scenarios should be designed with the later in mind.

                  Eventually I'd like to represent all the major organizations but just decided to start with 1943.

                  I had a quick look through the schematics you've got for units currently. I've spent a long time trying to study the 'real' organisations and to be honest I can never properly follow the 'war game' versions.
                  What could I do to render it in a more familiar format? (There will be some discrepencies at the lowest level due to the atomic nature of platoons and other simplifications. For example, I'm have only two non-combat units, really: staff and support, which obviously covers a lot of different real world roles. Also I'm limiting companies to ten platoons so where they are bigger than that I'm either consolidating them or moving some out as pseudo companies, e.g. a scout "company" or a mortar "company".)

                  If you're content to know a Staff Company for a Panzer Grenadier Regiment for eg would have;

                  Regimental Staff
                  Signals Platoon
                  Anti-tank Platoon (3 Pak40)
                  Scout Platoon (two or three Squads)
                  This is where I need the most help. You might even convince me to explicitly represent signals differently from staff and support. Is the above an actual org description or just some units off the top of you head? (For whatever reason, I have two Pak platoons, each with four guns, and no scout platoon.) About how many people in the regimental staff? (I'll model these in "squad" steps of staff "platoons" to approximate numbers.)

                  Then I can put some stuff together for you fairly easily that you can take as you find it. Detailed theoretical personnel, weapons and vehicle strengths though are too...detailed![/QUOTE]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The quick description I gave is based on the November 1943 KStN 1104 for a PzGren Regt Staff Coy. The armoured version added a Platoon with six SdKfz 251/16 flamethrower equipped halftracks. Both types included lots of service personnel in the Trains, Maintenance, Armourers, Rations and Baggage detachments. Searching through to find the relevant data on personnel numbers, and specific vehicle allocations, is surprisingly time consuming.

                    A good many of the late 1943 era KStN (German WW2 T/O&E equivalents) are available online these days (used to be like looking for polar bear tails!).

                    http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

                    http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.a...1&item=3&sec=1

                    I'll look at pulling something together on the November 1943 Panzer Division organisation for you, and then you can see if it's any help. You can abstract it as you see fit for your project, but hopefully you'll be able to base off the authorised strengths.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ipser View Post
                      Is that "The Operational Art of War"? I've never played it but looked it up. Please post or send whatever you have.
                      Yes it is, PM me your mail and I'll send you the scenarios.

                      I'll attach the only documents I did save, briefing and events, credit is entirely to Steven S. Stevens on these ones, I just helped a little from the side.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here's an example of the kind of info I have, let me know if it's any help to you.

                        It's an OOB more then it's a TO&E but I think that's the right way to start.

                        143th Division (Sharon), 2 Armored bde. (600&421) 1 Mech. bde. (875) 1 divisional artillery group (I'm not sure what the English military term is, but this means the equivalent of a bde. or several batteries) (214) 1 engineer battalion. 1 Reconnaissance battalion.

                        If this kind of info is any good to you, I probably have the whole (or most of) the IDF's 1973 OOB.
                        Last edited by Golani; 02 Jul 10, 14:25.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Golani View Post
                          Here's an example of the kind of info I have, let me know if it's any help to you. It's an OOB more then it's a TO&E but I think that's the right way to start.
                          At this point the distinction is negligable between the two; my orgs could benefit from either actual OBs or theoretical TO&Es.

                          143th Division (Sharon), 2 Armored bde. (600&421) 1 Mech. bde. (875) 1 divisional artillery group (I'm not sure what the English military term is, but this means the equivalent of a bde. or several batteries) (214) 1 engineer battalion. 1 Reconnaissance battalion.
                          While this is useful to confirm, it's roughly the level of info I've found in published sources (e.g. books on the war). It's the details below this where I'm really floundering. For example, what was the composition of the division, brigade, and battalion HQ companies? How many trucks were in the support brigade? (See the parallel discussion of WWII orgs for comparison.) I need to create a complete org model from the division all the way down to the platoon level including everything that takes up space.

                          If this kind of info is any good to you, I probably have the whole (or most of) the IDF's 1973 OOB.
                          That would be fantastic!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gary Kennedy View Post
                            The quick description I gave is based on the November 1943 KStN 1104 for a PzGren Regt Staff Coy. The armoured version added a Platoon with six SdKfz 251/16 flamethrower equipped halftracks. Both types included lots of service personnel in the Trains, Maintenance, Armourers, Rations and Baggage detachments. Searching through to find the relevant data on personnel numbers, and specific vehicle allocations, is surprisingly time consuming.
                            I"ve lumped all the "Trains, Maintenance, Armourers, Rations and Baggage detachments" together into "support" simply to represent the space that they take up on the road. Gross numbers of vehicles and personnel there would suffice. The flame throwers sounds like something I need to represent separately.

                            A good many of the late 1943 era KStN (German WW2 T/O&E equivalents) are available online these days (used to be like looking for polar bear tails!).

                            http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

                            http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.a...1&item=3&sec=1
                            Thanks for the links! I'll dive into those.

                            I'll look at pulling something together on the November 1943 Panzer Division organisation for you, and then you can see if it's any help. You can abstract it as you see fit for your project, but hopefully you'll be able to base off the authorised strengths.[/QUOTE]
                            That would be fantastic. I don't want to put you to any trouble but would be most grateful for anything you can throw my way. Feel free to add it to this thread or send it to me as you prefer.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ipser View Post
                              While this is useful to confirm, it's roughly the level of info I've found in published sources (e.g. books on the war). It's the details below this where I'm really floundering. For example, what was the composition of the division, brigade, and battalion HQ companies? How many trucks were in the support brigade? (See the parallel discussion of WWII orgs for comparison.) I need to create a complete org model from the division all the way down to the platoon level including everything that takes up space.


                              That would be fantastic!
                              I understand, I'm using open source material so there's no reason why this shouldn't happen, I thought I may have some better source, with the Hebrew and all

                              I'm still counting on you being able to operate the scenarios I sent you, it may hold most of the answers, if you're unable to I'll try to work on it, but it'll take time since I'm only able to attend to it during some of the weekends and I probably won't find all the answers.

                              Have you taken into consideration the different AFV's used?
                              Tanks will vary from M-51 "Super Shermans" right up to "Shot-Kal".
                              Some Mech. units started the war with M3 Halftracks and finished it with M-113 APCs.

                              Comment

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