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Wing Chun vs Krav Maga

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  • #16
    You may want to learn some more considered opinions on which martial art style to chose
    from discussions on the same subject we had earlier at ACG here
    BoRG

    You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
      Speaking of Escrima and Arnis, not to mention Penchak Silat ...

      Erich, I suggest you take a look at a guy called Michael Janich. He has some videos on unarmed combatives, the use of knives for self-defence, etc. His system was developed base on his experiences with Escrima, Arnis, Penchak Silat, etc.

      Personally, I find his methods quite simple to pick up and quite devastatingly effective. I've learned Aikido, Krav Maga, and Tae Kwan Do, but Janich's methods are what I'm teaching my wife. The reason is simple - my wife just wants to learn some basic moves that will work, and she's not interested in putting in hours after hours of practice to learn the complex motor skills involved in Aikido or TKD.

      Krav Maga is the most easy to teach of the three, and even this system is a bit more complicated to teach than Janich's.

      You can find his videos at Stay Safe Media.

      http://www.staysafemedia.com/
      Agreed.

      I've studied some Escrima as well as a form derived from Silat. Kuma is correc that they tend to start with sticks or knives, but after some time they tend to open up derivations into unarmed techniques, too.

      No style is perfect.

      At the risk of repeating myself, while all those bruises look good, I would not recommend joining the school where you're most likely to suffer beatdowns every night.

      Unless that's what you want.

      No school is going to make you truly competent at unarmed defense the day you walk in the school. Go someplace where you're comfortable. If taking (and giving) beatdowns is what you really want, then go for it. OTOH, if you're looking for a bunch of practical techniques which, over time, will develop into something useful, then go that route.

      Sure, if the MMA guys (or the family of mixed karate and ju-jitsu schools) get their hands on you, you're finished. However, most of those guys are disciplined enough to save it for the ring, so if you're not planning on getting drunk and mouthing off at one until he decides to shut you down then the risk of having a hostile encounter with an MMA guy is pretty small.

      More likely nothing bad will ever happen to you at all. But if you're looking to learn some techniques to better the odds in case something bad does happen, start with someplace you're comfortable. If you can get recommendations from friends more the better. This is going to take a while, and if you're really dedicated, you'll visit more than one school and style in your lifetime. So you're not going to make a "bad" decision. Pick one, start learning. If you're lucky you'll still be learning 20 years from now.
      RPG Wisdom: There is nothing more exhilarating than having an opponent roll to hit without result.

      Warhammer 40K Wisdom: Heresy grows from buggy servers.

      Try to learn the difference between prudence and paranoia.

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      • #18
        Good points.

        I think for most of us, if we are unfortunate enough to meet up with the true masters, we're probably screwed. But chances of doing that are quite low.

        A point I made to my wife is that we're not going to go around picking fights. Which means that when we have to fight, it's because we're in trouble. Also, it means that the bad guys have identified us as potential victims - which actually gives us a momentary but important edge. It means that they do not expect much resistance, or that we are likely to be combat trained. This in turn means we can surprise them with quick strikes.

        But this advantage is fleeting. Once we make our move, they will no longer be under the same illusion: which means that we have to strike at the most vulnerable and deadly targets to put an end to the fight.

        In fact, the less skilled or well trained a person is, the more he or she would have to strike with deadly intent at the most vulnerable targets. On the other hand, the more you practice, the more highly skilled you are, the complex the martial arts you learn, eventually, the less you will have to strike with deadly intent.

        So, I think the general public got it the wrong way around. The real martial art masters are those who can 'win' while causing the least amount of damage to an opponent!

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        • #19
          Thanks to all for the suggestions/input. I've set up an appointment with a Krav Maga instructor, but I still want to do another MA meanwhile.

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          • #20
            I haven't exercised in months and I'm pretty weak.
            Hi, Erich.
            I would change the above state of affairs as soon as possible. You can't fight if you can't breath, I don't care what you know. Physical conditioning needs to be a part of your training cycle if you plan on using what you learn.

            Personally, I'd forget about the softer styles at first. Aikido and it's like are great to get into once you've got a base, but it takes a very long time to gain proficiency in them and they are very hard to spar at. This brings me to point #2. You must engage in sparring where you are actually hit and fight as you would in real world situations. Most schools out there rely heavily on kata and "if this then this" training which is of limited value in the real world. Like another wise poster said, if you want to protect yourself in a fight, you must train by fighting, there is no other alternative to it. Finally, lear to ground fight and grapple. A majority of fights end up on the ground, and you need to know how to survive down there. Good training will be painful and hard, or else you're cheating yourself and setting yourself up for failure in the real world.

            Have fun. Stay safe.

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            • #21
              A few thoughts from a martial-arts enthusiast (historical and modern), a cop, and a Marine:

              1) In a real fight, there is no such thing as 'martial arts' or 'mixxed martial arts'. There is only one martial art. That is the 'art of whoop-arse', otherwise known as 'stomping him and his friends before they stomp you'. Fighting is a dirty, close, and absolutely vicious thing. And yes, I did tell all of this to a kid that I arrested for drunk and disorderly, while I was at the hospital with him because the guy he tried to use ju-jitsu on had broken his nose. My ideal bar fight is to tell the drunk that I don't want any trouble. Then since I raised my hands palm up saying "hey man it's cool, lemme buy you a...." palmheel strike to the face, punch to the gut, grab his head and kneestrike his facial bones into next week, push him off and look for his friends.......

              2) Conditioning, Conditioning, and more conditioning. This cannot be emphasized enough. This is in two parts as well. The first is cardio and strength training. If you can't fight for more than 2 minutes before you pass out, you're no good. And running alone won't do it because fighting is a different kind of workout. I've never been so exhausted as I was after rolling for 7 minutes with one of our detectives who's my size and speed. We kicked, grappled, muscled, clawed, and rolled all over the place for the whole time. I felt like I had run 8 miles. You also have to be strong. You can fight all day, but if you hit like a fly, someone my size (5'11" and 220lbs) is going to absorb your blows and relish pounding you into oblivion.

              The second part is conditioning muscle and bone to shock. Known as 'body-hardening'. This includes things like punching, kneeing, kicking, and elbowstriking a heavy bag (or a 4x4 post) until you can do it at full speed and strength without hurting yourself. It also includes having a partner punch you, strike you, and work with you on hardening key nerve-motor points. For example, Chuck Liddell had a fight that he lost. It was virtually all stand-up, and all of his opponents strikes were hitting the outside of his left thigh. Now, the human body has a major nerve-motor cluster there called the common peroneal. Hitting this with a powerful roundhouse kick is supposed to cause severe pain, and even cause the leg to fold up or spasm uncontrollably for a few seconds. The solution is body-hardening, and Chuck Liddell had hardened that area so much that even after over 15 strong kicks to the same point, even though his whole thigh was black and blue, he was still standing at the end of the fight.

              So to recap conditioning, work on cardio, strength, and anaerobic endurance (extremely high intensity for 3-5-10m periods). For Body-hardening, strike something that gives superhuman resistance with all of your body's striking surfaces (shins, feet, hands, fists, elbows, knees), and strike or have struck every point that is vulnerable to strikes (radius, ulna, peroneal, femoral (watch the important bits ), tibial, stomach, chest, back (watch the kidneys), and even take a couple of well-moderated headshots so you know what it feels like and that you can fight through it.

              3) MMA is not a martial art. MMA is ALL martial arts. Karate and Ju-jitsu were both developped in the same region. Tae-Kwon-Do and Hopkido were developped in the same region. Wrestling and Boxing....same general regions. Kung-Fu....many different forms....same general region. Coincidence? The logic is that some people master striking better, and some master grappling. But for a true practicioner, you need both types. Grappling disables single opponents, or opponents in confined spaces. It also gets you out of grapples. Striking works better for multiple opponents or open spaces. Once you find an art that you like, find its 'sister' art and learn it as well.

              4) Situational Awareness is the difference between the artist and the master. I don't care how good you are in a fight. I don't care what art you know. Nothing's going to save you if I cold-cock you with a (wine bottle, pitcher, cue-ball, brick, bat, etc.) to the temple without any warning at all.

              5) Learn the human body. This is concurrent with learning your chosen art. Go to the library, grab some medical texts. Learn about the human body. Learn what makes it move, and tick, and then match your fighting with how to stop it from moving and ticking. Learning where to punch is just as important as learning how to punch. Focus on nerves, tendons, and bones. Those are the things that you want to take apart quickly, to immobilize your assailant.

              6) Use your Environment. Note, these thoughts are not in order. For example, take the average pub. You have: Bar, Stools, tables, chairs, pool table, pool balls, cue sticks, rack, bottles, glasses, trays, plates, and silverware. Everything I named is a weapon or a shield. The bar gives you a refuge if the fight gets out of control. The pool table canalizes an opponent. The balls weight your blows or can be thrown. Same for bottles and glasses. The silverware is obvious. Tables can be flipped to protect or kicked into assailants. Trays can be used to block, or swung edge on to cause serious damage. And the barstool is a real room-cleaner in the right hands, as is a chair, or it can be used in short thrusts to drive back a group while you escape.

              7) If it works, use it, if it doesn't throw it away. There's a fancy thing called 'hicks law', in which it is said that every time you add a potential response you double the response time. So one stimulus=one response is the fastest thing your brain can do. Most people call it muscle memory. When you learn your art, especially if it is an old and ancient art, there will have been a lot of things added to the core moves over the years. This is how you get umpteen thousand techniques into a martial art. Hundreds of masters have added something they picked up until it's swollen to be huge. So, as you're learning, expose yourself to all of it. But don't try to master every technique, you'll drive yourself batty. Master the techniques that work for you, and put the rest towards 'growing pains'. I've trained in a half-dozen different arts. I can't say I know a wealth of techniques, but I've drawn from everything I've learned and the ones I know are effective.

              8) Never stop training. You see those movies where the guy used to be a great fighter, but he quit and got lazy. Then his best friend is killed and he trains for a solid month or more to get his skills back. That's one of the few things hollywood gets close to right. Reflexes aren't permanent. Neither is muscle-memory. If you stop training, your neurons will lose that alignment that allowed them to fire in such a blindingly fast sequence, and you will slow down. You'll also forget stuff as your hands are now requiring on your brain to tell them what to do, instead of your subconcious doing it for you.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                So, I think the general public got it the wrong way around. The real martial art masters are those who can 'win' while causing the least amount of damage to an opponent!
                The real master is the one that has already won before the fight even starts. For the master the fight is but the end. The actual winning and losing happened before the first blow landed.
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                • #23
                  wing chun training will have a lot form training, where as krav maga's whole focus is on real life scenario training.

                  krav maga will get you a basis to defend yourself on quickly, while wing chun will take a long time and much harder work for you to get the same level of real world proficiency.

                  i train/teach okinawan goju-ryu, and it's very hard to get a good mix of traditional and to-the-point training in a TMA (traditional martial art) school, but i find kata training mixed with contact non-stop sparring to be a great way to do it.

                  now that being said i'd recommend goju.
                  the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                  A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                  A man dies and leaves his name,
                  A teacher dies and teaches death.
                  Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Erich Franz View Post
                    I've decided to start taking martial arts, but I still haven't decided which I want to take. I've narrowed it down to Wing Chun and Krav Maga. Though I will still consider other options.

                    I want to train in a martial art that is effective in real fight scenarios.....

                    Tl;dr - I need help deciding which MA to take. I want to do the one that is most effective in real life fight scenarios.
                    hahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh my. _ing _un mentioned in a thread about effective fighting techniques. That's rich. If Krav Maga or _ing _un are yor only choices, go with Krav Maga. Otherwise, go with Boxing or judo if there isn't a MMA gym around. Stay away from the krotty gyms.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                      hahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh my. _ing _un mentioned in a thread about effective fighting techniques. That's rich. If Krav Maga or _ing _un are yor only choices, go with Krav Maga. Otherwise, go with Boxing or judo if there isn't a MMA gym around. Stay away from the krotty gyms.
                      i assume by krotty you mean karate, but wing chun isn't karate, it's kung fu.

                      any one can get online and bad mouth a style of martial art and talk up another, so maybe you could edit your post to put something useful in it.
                      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                      A man dies and leaves his name,
                      A teacher dies and teaches death.
                      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                        hahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh my. _ing _un mentioned in a thread about effective fighting techniques. That's rich. If Krav Maga or _ing _un are yor only choices, go with Krav Maga. Otherwise, go with Boxing or judo if there isn't a MMA gym around. Stay away from the krotty gyms.
                        All of the martial arts are fighting styles. Even Tai Chi are fighting moves. If one is in a hurry to get in a fight, then your advice is sound. Otherwise, I would encourage the beginner to find a style that piques their interest and suits whatever physical limitations they may have.
                        "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                        Groucho Marx

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                          hahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh my. _ing _un mentioned in a thread about effective fighting techniques. That's rich. If Krav Maga or _ing _un are yor only choices, go with Krav Maga. Otherwise, go with Boxing or judo if there isn't a MMA gym around. Stay away from the krotty gyms.
                          That's not productive. We're not here to tear each other down. We're here to share advice with someone new to self-defense.

                          Think back to your first day. Would ridicule be what you wanted to hear?
                          RPG Wisdom: There is nothing more exhilarating than having an opponent roll to hit without result.

                          Warhammer 40K Wisdom: Heresy grows from buggy servers.

                          Try to learn the difference between prudence and paranoia.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Wing Chun in street fight demonstration. The "sticky hands" is very similar to the style I studied, Southern Praying Mantis.



                            It looks pretty good to me.
                            "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                            Groucho Marx

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                            • #29
                              has anyone watched MMA with a wing chun practitioner? I've watched one, and he was kicking pretty well, but it didn't turn out too well for him against a boxer (who pretty much absorbed his kicks and punches). I'm thinking it might've been the inexperience of the wing chun practitioner, but I can't really say. Don't get me wrong, I like jeet kune do (which is a derivative of wing chun), and I don't mean to cast any other martial arts in a bad light.

                              Does anyone have a link where wing chun is used in combat? as in actual MMA, and not exhibition matches? BTW, Ip Man is a good movie which features Wing Chun
                              Last edited by GMan88; 09 Mar 11, 01:01.
                              "We have no white flag."

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                              • #30
                                Not to knock MMA, but it's not representative of a self-defense scenario.

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