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Unarmed Martial Arts in the Korean War

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  • #16
    Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
    the problem is not having to remember the system you're taught, because if you're trying to remember what you learned to do in each situation you've already been killed, drilling the same things over and over and over again to gain muscle memory so you don't have to think about what you're doing, and with TMA (traditional martial arts) it takes so long now for people to pick them up because they aren't 50% of the practitioner's life like they would have been for the soldiers of the era when they were developed.

    i've been training goju karate for almost a decade now, there are plenty of techniques that i am unable to use full speed (see sensei rod didn't say can't) because there is more to them and i haven't had the movements drilled into muscle memory yet, however there are still plenty of techniques that are obviously from training that a brawler wouldn't do that i use full speed.

    when sparring i don't know what i'm doing however, i don't black out, my body reacts appropriately, and then i am able to remember what i did when afterwards.

    any way point is yes militaries could teach TMAs and have effective soldiers if they decided that say all training one day a week would be dedicated to training that art, and that regimen was kept up from basic to drills on base when deployed, but since the government doesn't want to do that there's where the problem arises.
    Probably, during the time when the TMA systems were first drawn up, that's exactly what armies do. Drill in hand-to-hand combat, formation fighting with polearms, etc. all day. That's really all they have to do.

    The modern armies are very different. There's a lot more stuff to learn, not the least of which is shooting - actually, a pretty important martial skill as well, if you ask me!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
      Probably, during the time when the TMA systems were first drawn up, that's exactly what armies do. Drill in hand-to-hand combat, formation fighting with polearms, etc. all day. That's really all they have to do.

      The modern armies are very different. There's a lot more stuff to learn, not the least of which is shooting - actually, a pretty important martial skill as well, if you ask me!

      Shooting technically is a martial art. The amount of theory and practice it takes to be proficient with each gun is so much that mastering each kind of gun is like mastering a martial art by itself!

      As for modern armies, the Spetsnaz is the exception to the rule. Seriously the amount of martial arts training they do in the Spetsnaz is insane!Not only that but hundreds of Spetsnaz recruits die every year from training in Sambo!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
        Have you heard those idiots in the Federal Government already took out Bayonet Training in the US Army basic?Hell they even stopped giving infantry bayonets anymore!
        ya i heard that. i think it's sad, one of these days our boys are going to be clearing a house, a bad guy is going to jump on them, and they won't know what to do/be able to effectively do anything about it.
        the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

        A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
        A man dies and leaves his name,
        A teacher dies and teaches death.
        Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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        • #19
          Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
          Have you heard those idiots in the Federal Government already took out Bayonet Training in the US Army basic?Hell they even stopped giving infantry bayonets anymore!

          Radio Paris Ment...
          Radio Paris Ment...
          Radio Paris est Allemand...

          - Radio London opening intro

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          • #20
            Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
            Have you heard those idiots in the Federal Government already took out Bayonet Training in the US Army basic?Hell they even stopped giving infantry bayonets anymore!
            Are you even in the military? A better question is, are you old enough to join, and if you are, are you qualified to join? You seem to be a LARPer whose grasp of military history and current reality are quite tenuous, bordering on the tabloid and fanboi. Our days are already packed enough, and our record in battle has proven, that hand to hand combat and bayonet training can be minimalized.

            It's not the Federal Government that takes out bayonet training, it's TRADOC, based on our current and recent battlfield lessons learned. MAC is taught not to turn us in to cage fighters, but to help instill warrior ethos and a willingness to close with and engage the enemy in close combat. By the way, my unit trains it one day a week already, and it's still not adequate, but again, it's not our focus, nor should it be. the If you think that bayonet training, which was minimal in the first place is that important, along with hand to hand combat, become TRADOC commander and reinstitute them.

            And last, back up your claim that hundreds of SPETZNAZ die each year from Sambo.

            General Jacke, guess what, our guys already practice room clearing, and if you can point out ONE instance where a bayonet might have helped, link it. You don't have room for bayonets in the stack, and the length of the bayonet only gets in the way. Of the few instances recorded where hand to hand combat has been used, it was used as intended, to buy time until others could arrive with heavy firepower.

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            • #21
              OK, you may not need a bayonet, but perhaps a good knife on the vest may be a good idea?

              Also something I learnt recently - use your body armour. Head butt the guy with your kevlar helmet. Chest bump him with your front ceramic plate. Use your bulk to push a lighter opponent around. Definitely not as aesthetically pleasing as martial art moves of course, but certainly simple to learn and takes advantage of what you have.

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              • #22
                When I was in college I took Tae Kwon Do for a year because they did not offer Karate, which I had been taking as a kid. The head instructor, Master Choi, was probably in his 70's at the time. I can't really vouch for the veracity of the story, but the senior students told me that he was a soldier in the Korean War and he and two other men were captured by the North Koreans. Their hands were tied and one of the men was executed. Master Choi and the other man decided to fight, kicked their way out, jumped into a river and swam to safety with their hands tied.

                It certainly made for a heckuva story and Master Choi could still kick butt in his 70's.

                As an aside, my karate style (block or dodge, then reverse punch) made for some interesting sparring matches against the big axe and roundhouse kicks of TKD. There was a Korean girl who was both my nemesis and friend. Every week, she, then I was in the infirmary with some injury, but then we'd have pizza after. Once, we were both out, me on crutches from a knee kick and she with a big wrap around her jaw from my reverse punch, both at the same time.
                TTFN

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                  the problem is not having to remember the system you're taught, because if you're trying to remember what you learned to do in each situation you've already been killed, drilling the same things over and over and over again to gain muscle memory so you don't have to think about what you're doing, and with TMA (traditional martial arts) it takes so long now for people to pick them up because they aren't 50% of the practitioner's life like they would have been for the soldiers of the era when they were developed.

                  i've been training goju karate for almost a decade now, there are plenty of techniques that i am unable to use full speed (see sensei rod didn't say can't) because there is more to them and i haven't had the movements drilled into muscle memory yet, however there are still plenty of techniques that are obviously from training that a brawler wouldn't do that i use full speed.

                  when sparring i don't know what i'm doing however, i don't black out, my body reacts appropriately, and then i am able to remember what i did when afterwards.

                  any way point is yes militaries could teach TMAs and have effective soldiers if they decided that say all training one day a week would be dedicated to training that art, and that regimen was kept up from basic to drills on base when deployed, but since the government doesn't want to do that there's where the problem arises.
                  You do make a good point in that some of the TMA's have long learning curves. I took Aikido for many years and, at first, you're really more of a danger to yourself. However, I would recommend that no one ever mess with an old Japanese man with a stick though.

                  I think what you're describing is the Budo concept of Mushin, or no mind. No so much not knowing what you are doing, but not having to think about it and having an unfettered mind. I am getting to the point in my kendo practice to where I can stand five to six attacks and parries with my sensei without a hit landing and not having any conscious thought about it. Part of this is known as enzan no metsuke or unfocusing my eyes/looking through the opponent so as not to be distracted by feints or flashy movements. You also start to see the bigger picture too and tactics like distance, timing, angle, tempo all begin to flow more naturally.

                  My organization hosts a twice a month Krav Maga training of which I try to go at least once a month. It's good basic stuff with "personal weapons" training, punch, elbow, knee, mounting the guard, avoiding a takedown, weapon retention and takeaway. Nothing fancy.
                  Last edited by Kendoka Girl; 01 Dec 10, 16:42.
                  TTFN

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
                    Shooting technically is a martial art. The amount of theory and practice it takes to be proficient with each gun is so much that mastering each kind of gun is like mastering a martial art by itself!

                    As for modern armies, the Spetsnaz is the exception to the rule. Seriously the amount of martial arts training they do in the Spetsnaz is insane!Not only that but hundreds of Spetsnaz recruits die every year from training in Sambo!
                    I would say that one would have to have specific training in firearm categories moreso, i.e pistol, revolver, shotgun, assault rifle, etc. The "down to the bone" basics are pretty much the same - sight alignment, trigger control with stance, breathing, grip being also important.

                    In pistol shooting, if you have those things down, all it takes to transition to another pistol is some knowledge of the weapon function - how to lock that slide back, trigger action, safety, does it have a decocker, where is the magazine release, etc. I think that applies to pretty much all categories of modern firearms - safe handling (muzzle discipline, locking the slide/bolt back, etc), how do I load and unload (how do I eject a spent magazine, where is my bolt catch), how do I manipulate the safety/selector, etc.

                    Of course, there are specialists who train to a much higher degree than the average shooter on a specific weapon. Having down the basics, I can figure out nearly any hand gun with a good fam training.
                    TTFN

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kendoka Girl View Post
                      You do make a good point in that some of the TMA's have long learning curves. I took Aikido for many years and, at first, you're really more of a danger to yourself. However, I would recommend that no one ever mess with an old Japanese man with a stick though.

                      I think what you're describing is the Budo concept of Mushin, or no mind. No so much not knowing what you are doing, but not having to think about it and having an unfettered mind. I am getting to the point in my kendo practice to where I can stand five to six attacks and parries with my sensei without a hit landing and not having any conscious thought about it. Part of this is known as enzan no metsuke or unfocusing my eyes/looking through the opponent so as not to be distracted by feints or flashy movements. You also start to see the bigger picture too and tactics like distance, timing, angle, tempo all begin to flow more naturally.

                      My organization hosts a twice a month Krav Maga training of which I try to go at least once a month. It's good basic stuff with "personal weapons" training, punch, elbow, knee, mounting the guard, avoiding a takedown, weapon retention and takeaway. Nothing fancy.
                      I like Aikido. I definitely feel more confident that I can handle myself, after picking up Aikido, then when learning TKD.

                      I just got too old for all the break-falls in Aikido training, at least the way it's done here, especially after I hurt my back a while back. It does provide good foundation for my Krav Maga training, though. And, yes, Krav Maga is very basic. Nothing fancy or elaborate. You certainly won't see opponents being spun around or throw heels over heads!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                        OK, you may not need a bayonet, but perhaps a good knife on the vest may be a good idea?

                        Also something I learnt recently - use your body armour. Head butt the guy with your kevlar helmet. Chest bump him with your front ceramic plate. Use your bulk to push a lighter opponent around. Definitely not as aesthetically pleasing as martial art moves of course, but certainly simple to learn and takes advantage of what you have.
                        Gerbers and Leathermans are always welcome, but as part of a loadout, I don't know. My weapon still remains a potent weapon even empty. As for using our armor, yes, we've been taught to use our strengths and equipment. Rolling around in IBA and Kevlar SUCKS. There's nothing pretty about what we've been taught and trained. Regardless, if you're within arms reach of me, you're going to get hurt at the least, and dead most likely if that's the intention.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Good point. The carbine, even when empty, is still an effective weapon. Swing the butt around, and it'll do damage. The muzzle to the solar plexus should hurt. And, of course, it can be used to block and catch a machete being swung at you.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kendoka Girl View Post
                            When I was in college I took Tae Kwon Do for a year because they did not offer Karate, which I had been taking as a kid. The head instructor, Master Choi, was probably in his 70's at the time. I can't really vouch for the veracity of the story, but the senior students told me that he was a soldier in the Korean War and he and two other men were captured by the North Koreans. Their hands were tied and one of the men was executed. Master Choi and the other man decided to fight, kicked their way out, jumped into a river and swam to safety with their hands tied.

                            Very cool story!Know any more from examples of melee combat in Korea?All we ever hear about in popular media and general history books is Americans bayonetting their way through hordes of Chinese human waves but nothing more!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
                              Very cool story!Know any more from examples of melee combat in Korea?All we ever hear about in popular media and general history books is Americans bayonetting their way through hordes of Chinese human waves but nothing more!
                              what history books are you talking about?
                              honestly in school i don't think i've seen more than 10 pages about the korean war total, let alone anything about americans bayoneting their ways through chinese people.
                              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                              A man dies and leaves his name,
                              A teacher dies and teaches death.
                              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                SSG, bayonet charges in Korea were the exception, and generally occurred in the CCF Intervention phase (when the Chinese intervened to drive the UN forces South). If you want to see what was done n Korea without hand to hand combat in those days, look up the role of the PPCLI and 3RAR at the battle of Kapyong, which was where Chinese troops abandoned the use of 'human wave' attacks against Western troops.

                                Also, unsure why you are looking for hand to hand combat in the Korean War if you are seeking evidence of sophisticated martial arts training, given that the armies of all sides were relatively untrained. The North Korean Army was the most modern, in that it had been organized and equipped by the Soviets beginning in 1948. yet the single largest contingent of its troops, some 35,000 ethnic Koreans who had been fighting in the PLA since 1945-7, joined after October 1949. Their oldest members at least had had some combat experience as guerrillas in Manchuria (1946-47) and then more conventional experience from the Chinese Civil War of 1947-49. Likewise, many of the PLA troops sent into Korea were former Chinese Nationalist troops. Any appreciable martial arts training among either would have been accidental. The Americans were probably among the least trained, since the Army of the period was still undergoing post-WWII drawdown shock. Troops normally underwent 16 weeks of training before being shipped off to Japan, where they were engaged in Occupation duties which hardly prepared them for combat. The first Australian unit likewise came out of the Japanese Occupation forces, but was replaced within a year by "K Force" troops specifically recruited among WWII veterans, whose age and previous experience gave them a definite qualitative edge. I am unsure of what the British and Canadian training levels of the period were, but I suspect that they were better than that of the Americans.

                                After the summer of 1951, the battle lines stagnated as Armistice negotiations got underway. Korea became a positional war, with Division to Corps level offensives fought to seize or regain narrow strips of territory designed to give each side an advantage once the battle lines became frozen by the Armistice. That period was the heyday of small unit patrol actions which should have seen some unarmed combat a squad, section, and patrol levels. But it was also the period when the morale of the combatants was at its lowest level.
                                Last edited by lirelou; 02 Dec 10, 10:42.
                                dit: Lirelou

                                Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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