Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Unarmed Martial Arts in the Korean War

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Unarmed Martial Arts in the Korean War

    I'm not familiar with TKD but I thought it be interesting to discuss unarmed combat in the Korean War.

    From my limited knowledge I reead of engagments between Chinese and American troops in hand to hand fighting where American troops desperately tried to bayonet the Chinese away.

  • #2
    SSG, here's an article of interest. Beware of generalizations.

    http://www.historynet.com/born-to-fi...is-millett.htm

    Note that using a bayonet is not 'unarmed' combat. The Korean military make use of Tae Kwon Do as a confidence builder and physical exercise means. The Korean Special Forces have their own martial art, which includes techniques from Tae Kwon Do.
    dit: Lirelou

    Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lirelou View Post
      SSG, here's an article of interest. Beware of generalizations.

      http://www.historynet.com/born-to-fi...is-millett.htm

      Note that using a bayonet is not 'unarmed' combat. The Korean military make use of Tae Kwon Do as a confidence builder and physical exercise means. The Korean Special Forces have their own martial art, which includes techniques from Tae Kwon Do.
      I know use of Bayonet is unarmed but the reason why I mentioned it is because that's really all I ever heard from General History books and old news articles from Times magazine.So forgive my ignorance.

      From what you know, has there been any unarmed encounters between troops in Korea?You know like how in the pacific sometimes Japanese soldiers an American marines would suddenly surprisingly find themselves very close to each other while patroling in jungles and then a melee between Japanese and American marines would occur with punching and breaking bones.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lirelou View Post
        SSG, here's an article of interest. Beware of generalizations.

        http://www.historynet.com/born-to-fi...is-millett.htm

        Note that using a bayonet is not 'unarmed' combat. The Korean military make use of Tae Kwon Do as a confidence builder and physical exercise means. The Korean Special Forces have their own martial art, which includes techniques from Tae Kwon Do.
        Here are excerpts from the 2nd Infantry Division site depicting bayonet fighting:

        Hill 247, a low lying enemy-infested hill mass, was taken by the French only after they fixed bayonets and cut their way to the top where, they held in spite of savage counterattacks and sub-zero winds which cut through winter clothing



        At 0700. the enemy launched powerful attacks on all positions occupied by the French including Hill 453 where biter hand-to-hand fighting took place and in the Muchon valley where the enemy broke through the French Heavy Weapons Company and came within 200 yards of the road before it was repelled by a counterattack of the French Pioneer Platoon supported by two tanks. "L" Company was forced to give up slight ground about 1030 hours when severe pressure caused the lines to sag but by 1200 hours the ground was regained and the fighting continued to rage. In the French sector, the defenders were inflicting terrific casualties on the attackers in bayonet fighting


        http://www.2id.org/wonju1-tt.htm

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kelt06 View Post
          Here are excerpts from the 2nd Infantry Division site depicting bayonet fighting:

          Hill 247, a low lying enemy-infested hill mass, was taken by the French only after they fixed bayonets and cut their way to the top where, they held in spite of savage counterattacks and sub-zero winds which cut through winter clothing



          At 0700. the enemy launched powerful attacks on all positions occupied by the French including Hill 453 where biter hand-to-hand fighting took place and in the Muchon valley where the enemy broke through the French Heavy Weapons Company and came within 200 yards of the road before it was repelled by a counterattack of the French Pioneer Platoon supported by two tanks. "L" Company was forced to give up slight ground about 1030 hours when severe pressure caused the lines to sag but by 1200 hours the ground was regained and the fighting continued to rage. In the French sector, the defenders were inflicting terrific casualties on the attackers in bayonet fighting


          http://www.2id.org/wonju1-tt.htm
          Any unarmed combat?

          Comment


          • #6
            Who knows. If I'm having to resort to combatives, you're screwed, cause my battle buddies are coming around the corner to shoot your butt.

            Comment


            • #7
              Contrary to popular imagination, unarmed combat or combatives or whatever you choose to call it isn't all that new to Western armed forces. Some of us are probably familiar with the likes of William Fairbarn, Eric Sykes, and Rex Applegate, the forefathers of modern Western unarmed combat systems. Fairbarn's and Sykes' familiarity with unarmed combat went back to, in fact, the 1920s when they served in the Shanghai Municipal Police.

              If we want to go even earlier than that, I saw a youtube video clip of unarmed combat training in the US Army .... during WW1. That's right, the First World War.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                Contrary to popular imagination, unarmed combat or combatives or whatever you choose to call it isn't all that new to Western armed forces. Some of us are probably familiar with the likes of William Fairbarn, Eric Sykes, and Rex Applegate, the forefathers of modern Western unarmed combat systems. Fairbarn's and Sykes' familiarity with unarmed combat went back to, in fact, the 1920s when they served in the Shanghai Municipal Police.

                If we want to go even earlier than that, I saw a youtube video clip of unarmed combat training in the US Army .... during WW1. That's right, the First World War.
                Ever heard of Savate?Used as standard French army during the 1800s up until WW1.Was and still is official martial art of France and the French army.

                BTW did you know the US Army taught Savate back then up until the end of WW2?!In fact old US Army hand to hand combat manual showed how to execute Savate kicks and Savate punch-kick combos!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have a copy of their hand-to-hand combat manual from that period. Nothing resembling Savate kicks seemed to be in them, at least not those of the competition variety. Just practical, savage, and straightward moves.

                  In truth, teaching Savate to a mass army would not have been practical. Even with special forces, the amount of time that can be devoted to teaching unarmed combat is very limited. The unarmed combat system must be brutally simple and straightforward, both so that they are easy to learn, and easy to remember. Savate requires too much practice to be effective.

                  Of course, once a Savate practitioner gains that effectiveness, it is a very devastating system.

                  The same can be said of TKD - I actually have been trained in it in the Army. I don't think it's a very good system to teach citizen soldiers. It's effectiveness from relatively unskilled soldiers would have been minimal. I have a brown belt, and even then, I'm not confident that I would be able to handle myself in unarmed combat.

                  I've picked up Krav Maga. I think it is by far a more simple and effective system to be teaching conscripts and civilians. I've seen students, even female students, pick up useful self-defence skills within a few months.
                  Last edited by Ogukuo72; 29 Nov 10, 22:39.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                    I have a copy of their hand-to-hand combat manual from that period. Nothing resembling Savate kicks seemed to be in them, at least not those of the competition variety. Just practical, savage, and straightward moves.

                    In truth, teaching Savate to a mass army would not have been practical. Even with special forces, the amount of time that can be devoted to teaching unarmed combat is very limited. The unarmed combat system must be brutally simple and straightforward, both so that they are easy to learn, and easy to remember. Savate requires too much practice to be effective.

                    Of course, once a Savate practitioner gains that effectiveness, it is a very devastating system.

                    The same can be said of TKD - I actually have been trained in it in the Army. I don't think it's a very good system to teach citizen soldiers. It's effectiveness from relatively unskilled soldiers would have been minimal. I have a brown belt, and even then, I'm not confident that I would be able to handle myself in unarmed combat.

                    I've picked up Krav Maga. I think it is by far a more simple and effective system to be teaching conscripts and civilians. I've seen students, even female students, pick up useful self-defence skills within a few months.
                    Much of the manuals teaching Savate kicks back in the period didn't teach every techniques just the most basic and practical techniques such as the Chasse Lateral. PLus much of the Savate techniques were blended in with wrestling and boxing techniques so instead of seeing typical Savate kicks you see an intermixed hand to hand combat style.

                    Here is an old photo of American Soldiers practicing Savate.
                    Last edited by SegaSaturnGamer; 29 Nov 10, 22:51.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In Ranger training, you get some close quarters fight training in the first weeks, but the emphasis is upon patrolling. In Special Forces, in 1965, we only had eight hours of what I would call close quarter combat, with knives, improvised weapons, etc. The majority of training emphasized basic and advanced skills in weapons, communications, demolitions and engineering, and field medicine. It was more important that we knew how to set up and transmit, receive on the radio, or plan a raid or ambush, or set up and fire mortars, or when and where to rig a diamond charge, or call in supporting fire and airstrikes, or treat a sucking chest wound, than it was in knowing how to take out an enemy with a sock full of pebbles. You found your martial artists in the regionally based Special Forces groups, usually in the 1st Special Forces Group (based in Okinawa then), the SF Detachment in Korea, or the 46th Company in Thailand. And usually the people most practiced in such arts were the headquarters and support troops, who had the time. The deployed teams were usually too busy, and their schedules did not lend themselves to hours of martial arts training per week. One of the very best Okinawan Karate Black Belts was a parachute rigger from the 1st SFG. Of course, occasionally a commander arrived who was seriously into martial arts, like Bo Gritz.

                      Ah, SSG, weren't you corrected by Kelt on some of your Savate claims?
                      Last edited by lirelou; 29 Nov 10, 23:07.
                      dit: Lirelou

                      Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                        In Ranger training, you get some close quarters fight training in the first weeks, but the emphasis is upon patrolling. In Special Forces, in 1965, we only had eight hours of what I would call close quarter combat, with knives, improvised weapons, etc. The majority of training emphasized basic and advanced skills in weapons, communications, demolitions and engineering, and field medicine. It was more important that we knew how to set up and transmit, receive on the radio, or plan a raid or ambush, or set up and fire mortars, or when and where to rig a diamond charge, or call in supporting fire and airstrikes, or treat a sucking chest wound, than it was in knowing how to take out an enemy with a sock full of pebbles. You found your martial artists in the regionally based Special Forces groups, usually in the 1st Special Forces Group (based in Okinawa then), the SF Detachment in Korea, or the 46th Company in Thailand. And usually the people most practiced in such arts were the headquarters and support troops, who had the time. The deployed teams were usually too busy, and their schedules did not lend themselves to hours of martial arts training per week. One of the very best Okinawan Karate Black Belts was a parachute rigger from the 1st SFG. Of course, occasionally a commander arrived who was seriously into martial arts, like Bo Gritz.

                        Ah, SSG, weren't you corrected by Kelt on some of your Savate claims?
                        That's probably still true today. There's really so much special forces operators have to learn, and then to do, everyday that unarmed combat simply won't get that much time in their schedules. So, the more practical and simple the system, the better. After all, we're not training Hollywood ninjas here!

                        You didn't mention the Philippines, Subic or Clark. I'm pretty sure some of the people stationed there would have some exposure to the Philippine martial arts. Maybe Michael Janich for one?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                          I have a copy of their hand-to-hand combat manual from that period. Nothing resembling Savate kicks seemed to be in them, at least not those of the competition variety. Just practical, savage, and straightward moves.

                          In truth, teaching Savate to a mass army would not have been practical. Even with special forces, the amount of time that can be devoted to teaching unarmed combat is very limited. The unarmed combat system must be brutally simple and straightforward, both so that they are easy to learn, and easy to remember. Savate requires too much practice to be effective.

                          Of course, once a Savate practitioner gains that effectiveness, it is a very devastating system.

                          The same can be said of TKD - I actually have been trained in it in the Army. I don't think it's a very good system to teach citizen soldiers. It's effectiveness from relatively unskilled soldiers would have been minimal. I have a brown belt, and even then, I'm not confident that I would be able to handle myself in unarmed combat.

                          I've picked up Krav Maga. I think it is by far a more simple and effective system to be teaching conscripts and civilians. I've seen students, even female students, pick up useful self-defence skills within a few months.
                          the problem is not having to remember the system you're taught, because if you're trying to remember what you learned to do in each situation you've already been killed, drilling the same things over and over and over again to gain muscle memory so you don't have to think about what you're doing, and with TMA (traditional martial arts) it takes so long now for people to pick them up because they aren't 50% of the practitioner's life like they would have been for the soldiers of the era when they were developed.

                          i've been training goju karate for almost a decade now, there are plenty of techniques that i am unable to use full speed (see sensei rod didn't say can't) because there is more to them and i haven't had the movements drilled into muscle memory yet, however there are still plenty of techniques that are obviously from training that a brawler wouldn't do that i use full speed.

                          when sparring i don't know what i'm doing however, i don't black out, my body reacts appropriately, and then i am able to remember what i did when afterwards.

                          any way point is yes militaries could teach TMAs and have effective soldiers if they decided that say all training one day a week would be dedicated to training that art, and that regimen was kept up from basic to drills on base when deployed, but since the government doesn't want to do that there's where the problem arises.
                          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                          A man dies and leaves his name,
                          A teacher dies and teaches death.
                          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                            Ah, SSG, weren't you corrected by Kelt on some of your Savate claims?
                            I believe it was a misunderstanding. Kelt thought I was saying they Taught TRADITIONAL BOXE FRANCAISE in the French army but what I was actually saying is that the French army uses some Savate kicks like the Coup De Pied but I never said they use basic Boxe Francaise principles like moving around the terrain using footwork.

                            As for the US Army using Savate:
                            An Aritcle
                            http://www.urbancombatives.com/Ap2007ws.htm
                            Chasse Lateral to Lower Leg

                            Kicking down oppenent

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                              the problem is not having to remember the system you're taught, because if you're trying to remember what you learned to do in each situation you've already been killed, drilling the same things over and over and over again to gain muscle memory so you don't have to think about what you're doing, and with TMA (traditional martial arts) it takes so long now for people to pick them up because they aren't 50% of the practitioner's life like they would have been for the soldiers of the era when they were developed.

                              i've been training goju karate for almost a decade now, there are plenty of techniques that i am unable to use full speed (see sensei rod didn't say can't) because there is more to them and i haven't had the movements drilled into muscle memory yet, however there are still plenty of techniques that are obviously from training that a brawler wouldn't do that i use full speed.

                              when sparring i don't know what i'm doing however, i don't black out, my body reacts appropriately, and then i am able to remember what i did when afterwards.

                              any way point is yes militaries could teach TMAs and have effective soldiers if they decided that say all training one day a week would be dedicated to training that art, and that regimen was kept up from basic to drills on base when deployed, but since the government doesn't want to do that there's where the problem arises.
                              Have you heard those idiots in the Federal Government already took out Bayonet Training in the US Army basic?Hell they even stopped giving infantry bayonets anymore!

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X