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Soviet Soldiers VS German Soldiers in martial arts?

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  • grosnain
    replied
    I remember that in Caucasus it has been a lot of close combat. Hills and very dense wild forest.
    But grenade and mp 40 or ppsh 41 were much usefull.

    I don't think that at that time close combat was such known ( and easy to practice and training) to be efficient as it is today with all kinds of martial art for every level of training and purpose given the time you have to learn.
    Last edited by grosnain; 30 Sep 10, 15:07.

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  • Pilsudski
    replied
    Originally posted by joea View Post
    As someone mentioend on the same thread Sega posted elsewhere, how often would Russian and German soldiers get clsoe enough to fight hand to hand???
    Probably in close-quarters urban combat like Stalingrad and/or Berlin.

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  • joea
    replied
    As someone mentioend on the same thread Sega posted elsewhere, how often would Russian and German soldiers get clsoe enough to fight hand to hand???

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  • Egorka
    replied
    "Self defence against multiple armed targets"
    Somo zashita protiv bolshe chem odnogo voruzhonih protivnikiov"
    "Self defence against multiple armed targets"
    Somo zashita protiv bolshe chem odnogo voruzhonih protivnikiov" = "Self defence against multiple armed OPPONENTS"

    I have not read anything in the Soviet soldiers memoirs which whould indicate wide spread of any notable martial art techniques.
    There were in many cases focus on general fitness of the youth and bayonet training (often excessive in time consumption), but not martial arts.

    I think if RKKA had any advantage in that domain, it would be linked to some other, more general, factors.

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  • Pilsudski
    replied
    Hey ShAA, from the same site they offer this source on Cossack fist-fighting:
    http://cossackweb.narod.ru/kazaki/r_kulboi.htm

    Although it's only по русский.

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  • Pilsudski
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    Well, of course it should mention something like this, but it doesn't mean it is true. I've read a more detailed study of Russian martial arts, and it concluded their development in Russia was mediocre at best. What the authors meant as "ancient history" was probably "stenka" - traditional fistfights between villages where dozens of men would beat the crap out of each other. This hardly ever involved any finesse or special style.
    The only thing close I can think of was a form of fist-fighting used by Cossacks; at least that's what post-Soviet Cossack academies claim.
    Last edited by Pilsudski; 29 Sep 10, 20:21.

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  • llkinak
    replied
    All this martial arts stuff is fascinating to me. I've studied various forms over the years and most are of little to no use in the kind of brawls being discussed. It's not like the boys are squaring off against each other in a ring or anything like that, it's more like who can cave the other guy's skull in with somehting heavy before his buddy, who I can't see coming up behind me, does it to me. This ain't the movies after all.

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  • Erkki
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post

    Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.
    If that was true, how come the Germans even managed to cross the border?




    Shut up Erkki, there is nothing average about you

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  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
    Actually watch the Human Weapon series Sambo episode. They mentioned that martial arts has always been a part of Russian culture and Wrestling was popular among Russian teens and men for much of Russia's existence.
    Well, of course it should mention something like this, but it doesn't mean it is true. I've read a more detailed study of Russian martial arts, and it concluded their development in Russia was mediocre at best. What the authors meant as "ancient history" was probably "stenka" - traditional fistfights between villages where dozens of men would beat the crap out of each other. This hardly ever involved any finesse or special style.

    And trust me, there's never been any "old traditional popularity" of wrestling. When Western kung-fu and karate films appeared in the SU in late 1980s all kids under 10 like myself were crazy about these cool ninjas and Shaolin monks - for the reason they had never seen or experienced anything similar.

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  • SegaSaturnGamer
    replied
    Originally posted by Wolery View Post
    Germans trained on pistols and the fighting side of their entrenching spade. Hand to hand I can't say, but Germans were far from helpless in close quarters combat, a fact lamented by Anglo-American troops
    I remember that often whenever American troops fought Germans in melee, Germans displayed no knowledge of wrestling or boxing at all. OFten American soldiers could easily perform arm twists or other bone breaking techniques on German soldiers.

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  • SegaSaturnGamer
    replied
    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
    This info seemed dubious for me and I checked wiki, which said that sambo was approved by the government for teaching to the public only in 1938. A bit too late to become widely spread. Anyway, I've never heard any mentions of a special martial art system taught to Red Army soldiers or it being part of a school or university curriculum. There might've been little clubs in community centers (Houses of Culture), but not more than that.


    Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.



    I wonder where you've got such info? Teenagers fought with each other like everywhere else and there were little to no martial technques involved.

    What the Russians really practiced often since the times of Suvorov and what was done with (arguably) much greater efficiency compared to the other armies was bayonet attack. Sometimes entrenchment spades were used to great effect.

    Actually watch the Human Weapon series Sambo episode. They mentioned that martial arts has always been a part of Russian culture and Wrestling was popular among Russian teens and men for much of Russia's existence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pilsudski
    replied
    I know a version of Sambo was practiced by Stalin's bodyguards before 1938, but it was restricted to elite military units.

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  • ShAA
    replied
    Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
    Sombo was first created after the Russian Revolution when the red army started the fighting without rules competition, it was chosen as the red army's main fighting style after millions of matches, deaths broken necks bones etc. It would become the Red Army's official martial arts by the end of WW2 and is in fact still the Russian army's traditional martial arts.
    This info seemed dubious for me and I checked wiki, which said that sambo was approved by the government for teaching to the public only in 1938. A bit too late to become widely spread. Anyway, I've never heard any mentions of a special martial art system taught to Red Army soldiers or it being part of a school or university curriculum. There might've been little clubs in community centers (Houses of Culture), but not more than that.
    I bet my money that a Soviet soldier would kill a German soldier in hand to hand any day. I would even bet that an untrained Russian conscript will kill a battle hardened German paratrooper in hand to hand because martial arts were already a part of Russian culture before Sambo was created.
    Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.

    It was tradtional for young Russian teenagers and men to learn traditional Russian wrestling and western boxing as both a sport for fun and a way to settle conflicts in a duel of honor. in other words hand to hand combat is a part of Russian culture that young men were expected to learn prior to the Soviet Union's creation.
    I wonder where you've got such info? Teenagers fought with each other like everywhere else and there were little to no martial technques involved.

    What the Russians really practiced often since the times of Suvorov and what was done with (arguably) much greater efficiency compared to the other armies was bayonet attack. Sometimes entrenchment spades were used to great effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wolery
    replied
    Germans trained on pistols and the fighting side of their entrenching spade. Hand to hand I can't say, but Germans were far from helpless in close quarters combat, a fact lamented by Anglo-American troops

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  • SegaSaturnGamer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
    I know boxing was emphasized in military training for the Hitler Youth. So if the Wehrmacht "neglected" unarmed combat, it could be because recruits already learned it.
    Still who do you believe is generally better unarmed? A trained Soviet soldier or a trained Wehrmacht soldier?

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