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Soviet Soldiers VS German Soldiers in martial arts?

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  • Soviet Soldiers VS German Soldiers in martial arts?

    I read somewhere that the Germans stopped having a formal training program in hand-to-hand between the two world wars. They thought it was obsolete. In fact I read it was common for Soviet soldiers to easily slaughter German soldiers in hand to hand during house to house battles. From what I read the Germans didn't even teach wrestling and boxing to any of their army divisions in WW2 except for the Waffen SS( who trained heavily in boxing and grappling techniques)!

    Here is info about Russian martial arts

    Russian Sambo
    Originally a hybrid of Judo and traditional wrestling martial arts in Russia and Central Europe and Central Asia, SAMBO is the product of a Russian experiment to find the most usable skills that can be used in any situation, on any terrain, and the best/fastest way of teaching those skills to its students (originally the military)...so its not so simple as to say its a mix of judo and wrestling. there are many differences. its westernized in teaching method. more scientific in a sense. Steve Keopfer says its "movement based" rather than position or technique based. beginners simply learn to 'move' with someone (opponent) rather than worrying about this technique or that technique.

    Others have said sambo also takes into consideration "making it work for you"...rather than many asian styles that are often described as 'cooky cutter' arts..in that they teach everyone exactly the same and you cannot change or personalize anything.

    its all about producing personalized results as quickly as possible, in any situation, and in any scenario. that's sambo.

    of course there are various 'versions'
    sport sambo (similar to a blend of bjj and judo rules)
    combat (sport) sambo (basically mma with a kurtka (kimono/gi) ..and headgear.
    combat sambo..military hand to hand combat.

    Sombo was first created after the Russian Revolution when the red army started the fighting without rules competition, it was chosen as the red army's main fighting style after millions of matches, deaths broken necks bones etc. It would become the Red Army's official martial arts by the end of WW2 and is in fact still the Russian army's traditional martial arts.

    I know for a fact that it was created to train Soviet Troops of Special Purposes AKA Spetsnaz to survive in any street fighting situation.
    It was developed from multiple fighting styles and it translates like this

    "Self defence against multiple armed targets"
    Somo zashita protiv bolshe chem odnogo voruzhonih protivnikiov"

    In short its the art of Disabling multiple armed attackers in the shortest time possible.

    Sambo's striking techniques mix of Muay Thai and a drop of boxing with kicks and blocks taken from the French martial art of savate, karate, and other martial arts in Asia. Samboists typical start by leading to first attack coming from boxing techniquesthen the 2nd attack coming from the Sambo fighter breaking a bunch of your bones or skull using Judo and wrestling techniques then the fail-safe get you on the ground if if the Samboist has to have to.

    Sambo is used today by many top MMA champions in the world including the legendary Fedor Emilianko.

    I bet my money that a Soviet soldier would kill a German soldier in hand to hand any day. I would even bet that an untrained Russian conscript will kill a battle hardened German paratrooper in hand to hand because martial arts were already a part of Russian culture before Sambo was created. It was tradtional for young Russian teenagers and men to learn traditional Russian wrestling and western boxing as both a sport for fun and a way to settle conflicts in a duel of honor. in other words hand to hand combat is a part of Russian culture that young men were expected to learn prior to the Soviet Union's creation. Hand to Hand combat was never deemed important in the German military and German culture as a whole. Most Germans back in WW2 never boxed in their lives or wrestled in their lives let alone are conditioned physically for fighting sports.
    Last edited by SegaSaturnGamer; 29 Sep 10, 12:50.

  • #2
    I know boxing was emphasized in military training for the Hitler Youth. So if the Wehrmacht "neglected" unarmed combat, it could be because recruits already learned it.
    "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
    --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
      I know boxing was emphasized in military training for the Hitler Youth. So if the Wehrmacht "neglected" unarmed combat, it could be because recruits already learned it.
      Still who do you believe is generally better unarmed? A trained Soviet soldier or a trained Wehrmacht soldier?

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      • #4
        Germans trained on pistols and the fighting side of their entrenching spade. Hand to hand I can't say, but Germans were far from helpless in close quarters combat, a fact lamented by Anglo-American troops
        How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
        275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
          Sombo was first created after the Russian Revolution when the red army started the fighting without rules competition, it was chosen as the red army's main fighting style after millions of matches, deaths broken necks bones etc. It would become the Red Army's official martial arts by the end of WW2 and is in fact still the Russian army's traditional martial arts.
          This info seemed dubious for me and I checked wiki, which said that sambo was approved by the government for teaching to the public only in 1938. A bit too late to become widely spread. Anyway, I've never heard any mentions of a special martial art system taught to Red Army soldiers or it being part of a school or university curriculum. There might've been little clubs in community centers (Houses of Culture), but not more than that.
          I bet my money that a Soviet soldier would kill a German soldier in hand to hand any day. I would even bet that an untrained Russian conscript will kill a battle hardened German paratrooper in hand to hand because martial arts were already a part of Russian culture before Sambo was created.
          Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.

          It was tradtional for young Russian teenagers and men to learn traditional Russian wrestling and western boxing as both a sport for fun and a way to settle conflicts in a duel of honor. in other words hand to hand combat is a part of Russian culture that young men were expected to learn prior to the Soviet Union's creation.
          I wonder where you've got such info? Teenagers fought with each other like everywhere else and there were little to no martial technques involved.

          What the Russians really practiced often since the times of Suvorov and what was done with (arguably) much greater efficiency compared to the other armies was bayonet attack. Sometimes entrenchment spades were used to great effect.
          www.histours.ru

          Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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          • #6
            I know a version of Sambo was practiced by Stalin's bodyguards before 1938, but it was restricted to elite military units.
            "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
            --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ShAA View Post
              This info seemed dubious for me and I checked wiki, which said that sambo was approved by the government for teaching to the public only in 1938. A bit too late to become widely spread. Anyway, I've never heard any mentions of a special martial art system taught to Red Army soldiers or it being part of a school or university curriculum. There might've been little clubs in community centers (Houses of Culture), but not more than that.


              Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.



              I wonder where you've got such info? Teenagers fought with each other like everywhere else and there were little to no martial technques involved.

              What the Russians really practiced often since the times of Suvorov and what was done with (arguably) much greater efficiency compared to the other armies was bayonet attack. Sometimes entrenchment spades were used to great effect.

              Actually watch the Human Weapon series Sambo episode. They mentioned that martial arts has always been a part of Russian culture and Wrestling was popular among Russian teens and men for much of Russia's existence.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Wolery View Post
                Germans trained on pistols and the fighting side of their entrenching spade. Hand to hand I can't say, but Germans were far from helpless in close quarters combat, a fact lamented by Anglo-American troops
                I remember that often whenever American troops fought Germans in melee, Germans displayed no knowledge of wrestling or boxing at all. OFten American soldiers could easily perform arm twists or other bone breaking techniques on German soldiers.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SegaSaturnGamer View Post
                  Actually watch the Human Weapon series Sambo episode. They mentioned that martial arts has always been a part of Russian culture and Wrestling was popular among Russian teens and men for much of Russia's existence.
                  Well, of course it should mention something like this, but it doesn't mean it is true. I've read a more detailed study of Russian martial arts, and it concluded their development in Russia was mediocre at best. What the authors meant as "ancient history" was probably "stenka" - traditional fistfights between villages where dozens of men would beat the crap out of each other. This hardly ever involved any finesse or special style.

                  And trust me, there's never been any "old traditional popularity" of wrestling. When Western kung-fu and karate films appeared in the SU in late 1980s all kids under 10 like myself were crazy about these cool ninjas and Shaolin monks - for the reason they had never seen or experienced anything similar.
                  www.histours.ru

                  Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post

                    Uh, I'm starting to look for a big letter "S" in a red pentagon on my chest The answer is no, of course. Untrained conscripts had no greater knowledge of martial arts than an average teenager today.
                    If that was true, how come the Germans even managed to cross the border?




                    Shut up Erkki, there is nothing average about you

                    “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                    Max Sterner

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                    • #11
                      All this martial arts stuff is fascinating to me. I've studied various forms over the years and most are of little to no use in the kind of brawls being discussed. It's not like the boys are squaring off against each other in a ring or anything like that, it's more like who can cave the other guy's skull in with somehting heavy before his buddy, who I can't see coming up behind me, does it to me. This ain't the movies after all.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                        Well, of course it should mention something like this, but it doesn't mean it is true. I've read a more detailed study of Russian martial arts, and it concluded their development in Russia was mediocre at best. What the authors meant as "ancient history" was probably "stenka" - traditional fistfights between villages where dozens of men would beat the crap out of each other. This hardly ever involved any finesse or special style.
                        The only thing close I can think of was a form of fist-fighting used by Cossacks; at least that's what post-Soviet Cossack academies claim.
                        Last edited by Pilsudski; 29 Sep 10, 20:21.
                        "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                        --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey ShAA, from the same site they offer this source on Cossack fist-fighting:
                          http://cossackweb.narod.ru/kazaki/r_kulboi.htm

                          Although it's only по русский.
                          "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                          --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            "Self defence against multiple armed targets"
                            Somo zashita protiv bolshe chem odnogo voruzhonih protivnikiov"
                            "Self defence against multiple armed targets"
                            Somo zashita protiv bolshe chem odnogo voruzhonih protivnikiov" = "Self defence against multiple armed OPPONENTS"

                            I have not read anything in the Soviet soldiers memoirs which whould indicate wide spread of any notable martial art techniques.
                            There were in many cases focus on general fitness of the youth and bayonet training (often excessive in time consumption), but not martial arts.

                            I think if RKKA had any advantage in that domain, it would be linked to some other, more general, factors.
                            Kind regards
                            Igor

                            * My grandfathers WW2 memoirs - Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Hungary, 1944-1945.
                            * On the question of "2 mil. rapes" by RKKA
                            * Verdicts of RKKA Military Tribunals for crimes against civilians in 1945

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                            • #15
                              As someone mentioend on the same thread Sega posted elsewhere, how often would Russian and German soldiers get clsoe enough to fight hand to hand???

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