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The Medival European Knight vs a Japanese Samurai

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  • From what I've read, shields began to fall by the wayside around the late 1300's to early 1400's in Europe for fully armored knights. Where they were quite common at Crecy and Poitiers, they are less common at Agincourt and pretty much history by the Wars of the Roses with the exception of jousting.
    TTFN

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    • Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
      That's a great picture, where did you find it. Although very inaccurate haha. I don't think the samurai were that mobile, but I can see the point its getting at, if it has a point at all.
      steal street team
      www.stealstreet.com

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      • The shield became obsolete with the introduction of articulated plate armour, the so-called "White Armour". At Agincourt there aren't any reports of the use of shields. The men-at-arms in the French camp had cut their lances to a length that allowed them to fight on foot.
        The armour weighed between 40 and 60 pounds, but the helmet or bascinet, restricted both vision and the flow of air to the participant. Consequently, by the time they,the French, came to grips with the English, they were not only a bit fatigued, but had lost a great number of their fellows to bodkin tipped arrows. Many of these men-at=arms were killed by arrow wounds through the slits in the bascinet and penetration wounds of the armour.

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        • I think an interesting aspect to explore is, who were better marksmen? I know the japanese heavily utilized the Umi? but their bows rather than swords. Marksmanship we all know played a huge role in medieval warfare in Europe. So in a far ranged battle, who would win?
          Last edited by banditman; 30 Jun 09, 13:53.
          steal street team
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          • Medieval Europe (except Italian crossbows and British longbows) was actually rather primitive when it comes to archery, no?

            If you want to see who wins - European or Samurai - come watch the tournament! There's a Samurai who has come to participate.

            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...t=77982&page=1

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            • Originally posted by AThousandYoung View Post
              Medieval Europe (except Italian crossbows and British longbows) was actually rather primitive when it comes to archery, no?

              If you want to see who wins - European or Samurai - come watch the tournament! There's a Samurai who has come to participate.

              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...t=77982&page=1
              And coincidentally he has utterly horrible archery skills

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              • Originally posted by AThousandYoung View Post
                Medieval Europe (except Italian crossbows and British longbows) was actually rather primitive when it comes to archery, no?

                If you want to see who wins - European or Samurai - come watch the tournament! There's a Samurai who has come to participate.

                http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...t=77982&page=1
                Really? I thought they were about even. But I don't really know too much! Ive been learning a lot here
                steal street team
                www.stealstreet.com

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                • Originally posted by banditman View Post
                  I think an interesting aspect to explore is, who were better marksmen? I know the japanese heavily utilized the Umi? but their bows rather than swords. Marksmanship we all know played a huge role in medieval warfare in Europe. So in a far ranged battle, who would win?
                  There was a transition in the use of the bow in Japan between 800 - 1500 AD. Mounted archery was supreme until after the Mongol invasions. Foot archers begin to gain momentum after until mounted archery is rare by the Sengoku Jidai. During the time of the mounted archer, marksmanship was the defining skill. During the time of the ashigaru foot archer, massed archery is the norm on the battlefield. The aristocracy still practiced kyudo as a lone archer.

                  The Mongols emphasized massed archery for their cavalry and infantry and gave the samurai a rude surprise in the first invasion. Overall, I think the Mongol and Korean bow was superior to the Yumi.

                  Regarding European archers, I think you're right in that, other than the elite units such as Welsh/English Longbowmen and Italian Crossbowmen, the average archer was poorly trained, equipped, and fed. I saw a documentary once that mentioned that their bows did not have the power to penetrate heavy armor.
                  TTFN

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                  • There were very few "average archers" who trekked with Henry to the field at Azincourt.
                    At the time, Henry's army, consisting mainly of archers was suffering from acute diarrhea due to the water ingested at Harfleur.
                    The archers were paid 6d per day as opposed to a man-at-arm who received 12d per day, but was required to maintain his horse.
                    An archer in England grew into his bow. He began with small bows and when he had become a man, his bow, made of yew grown in Holland/Belgium had a draw weight of 150 to 180 pounds. The arrows were tipped with "bodkins", a point which was quite capaable of penetrating the plate armour of the 15th century. Many of the French died from wounds suffered via their eye slits of the bacinet.
                    If you visit the museun at Agincourt, you can interact with their various weapons. When you arrive at the Longbow exhibit, you are testing a silly 60lb draw weight bow.
                    The exploration of the "Mary Rose" has dispelled many hitherto theories of the "archers"
                    Remember that the Archers carried lead mallets to enable them to drive their 6' stakes into the ground. These same lead mallets were very effective against armour laden, exhausted French men-at arms.
                    When Henry asked the Heralds, both French and English(in essence,the umpires of the day), who was the the victor, they proclaimed, Henry.
                    As to the crossbowmen, who were mostly Genoese, they had become obsolesent at Crecy in 1346.
                    There are a number of stories concerning the crossbowmen at Agincourt. I think that both Barker and Curry would agree on this single point; their contribution was minimal at best.
                    Best regards
                    Last edited by royalwelch; 02 Jul 09, 22:27.

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                    • Originally posted by royalwelch View Post
                      There were very few "average archers" who trekked with Henry to the field at Azincourt.
                      At the time, Henry's army, consisting mainly of archers was suffering from acute diarrhea due to the water ingested at Harfleur.
                      The archers were paid 6d per day as opposed to a man-at-arm who received 12d per day, but was required to maintain his horse.
                      An archer in England grew into his bow. He began with small bows and when he had become a man, his bow, made of yew grown in Holland/Belgium had a draw weight of 150 to 180 pounds. The arrows were tipped with "bodkins", a point which was quite capaable of penetrating the plate armour of the 15th century. Many of the French died from wounds suffered via their eye slits of the bacinet.
                      If you visit the museun at Agincourt, you can interact with their various weapons. When you arrive at the Longbow exhibit, you are testing a silly 60lb draw weight bow.
                      The exploration of the "Mary Rose" has dispelled many hitherto theories of the "archers"
                      Remember that the Archers carried lead mallets to enable them to drive their 6' stakes into the ground. These same lead mallets were very effective against armour laden, exhausted French men-at arms.
                      When Henry asked the Heralds, both French and English(in essence,the umpires of the day), who was the the victor, they proclaimed, Henry.
                      As to the crossbowmen, who were mostly Genoese, they had become obsolesent at Crecy in 1346.
                      There are a number of stories concerning the crossbowmen at Agincourt. I think that both Barker and Curry would agree on this single point; their contribution was minimal at best.
                      Best regards
                      Indeed, I think the English longbowman is the premier foot archer of the medieval period, European or Asian in terms of training, range, and lethality. They usually had incredible discipline and command and control. I recall only one particular battle in which they were defeated by the French late in the Hundred Years War. Also, I think that during the Wars of the Roses, they tended to cancel each other out like at Towton as longbowmen were on both sides.
                      TTFN

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                      • I would love to see what the kanabo (japanese equivalent of a mace or warhammer) would do against European chainmail or plate armor. There's a reason that weapon is linked with images of oni and demons...

                        In regards to the knight, are we talking about the later knights in full plate armor, the earlier knights just in chianmail that didn't couch their lances, or the crusader knights?
                        Let us to't pell-mell, if not to heaven, then hand in hand to hell!-Richard III

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                        • Now are we considering late mideval orders like the knights of St. John and The teutonic order

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                          • I think it all depends on numbers and who's in charge of the different armies. Most medieval battles, European or Japanese, broke down to brawls more than contests of dueling skills. Swords had very little use in these, either European varities or Japanese. If a skilled commander could obtain an advantage his side might very well come out on top.

                            European knights defnintely had huge cavalry and armor advantages. Weapons were, IMO, of similar values between the two. Samurai probably trained a bit harder as individuals, however probably not decisively so. European medieval knights trained or fought almost continuously in some periods as well.

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                            • Originally posted by Ace_ General View Post
                              Now are we considering late mideval orders like the knights of St. John and The teutonic order
                              If that's you AG, then may I just say 'good bye' before your banned.... again!
                              "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                              Ernest Hemingway.

                              In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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                              • Originally posted by Knight-Errant View Post
                                I would love to see what the kanabo (japanese equivalent of a mace or warhammer) would do against European chainmail or plate armor. There's a reason that weapon is linked with images of oni and demons...

                                In regards to the knight, are we talking about the later knights in full plate armor, the earlier knights just in chianmail that didn't couch their lances, or the crusader knights?
                                From what I've read, the kanabo along with the no-dachi became very popular during the Nambokucho of the 1300's and the Onin no Ran or the 1400's. An interesting development in armor came in the kabuto or helmet, which developed a very wide brimmed shikoro or overlapped metal skirts to facilitate the sweeping, circular styles associated with these weapons.
                                TTFN

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