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The Medival European Knight vs a Japanese Samurai

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  • Originally posted by R. Evans View Post
    Read the thread.
    Okay, I watched them all and so now what's the point?

    Earlier you said that this had gone stereotype and went ninja. Well, no it didn't. And besides, ninja aren't samurai. Completely different subject.

    So catch up and add something useful.

    I was going to attempt and defend the point, but since the ice has melted and the dining hall reopened and I'm no longer living on almonds and rye-crisps I don't really know wtf I was talking about. It was probably completely off topic so I threw in something about the last samurai.

    I tried to catch up, but by page two I couldn't stand the walls of texts and I do recall reading somewhere about someone saying the Samurai could have gotten the Ninja to kill the knight which is a stereotype since I was under the impression that ninjas were just poor farmers trying to fend of samurais. I could be wrong because I tended to ignore the Japanese club's posters since they had anime all over them.

    So in conclusion; I have nothing to add to this thread because I know too little about Japanese history and feel no great urge to read 10+ pages of block-o-texts. My bad; sorry for derailing the thread. Though I still love those SNL skits and will use the tiniest justifications to bring them up.

    Here's an old Duerer thing I always liked.
    And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
    Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
    Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
    Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

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    • Yah, I didn't read the whole thread. I skimmed it and read the last page or so.

      Japanese history is very much like European history - valor, bravery, treachery, cowardice. In general, a samurai would never get a ninja to do his dirty work. However, the lords were certainly not above that, much like the barons, earls, and dukes of Europe.

      Ninja being poor farmers fending off samurai...yes and no. Nobunaga invaded Iga and that scenario occurred. Other ninja was part of the aristocracy. There was certainly no one ninja stereotype.

      Durer is one of my favorites. His lithographs are so detailed. I was quite a dark, goth chick at one time.
      TTFN

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      • Ok, a video on the katana vs. the broadsword.

        Seems both are excellent weapons -

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENfiU...eature=related
        TTFN

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        • Another on a kabuto

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsW2...eature=related

          Looks like a good hit.
          TTFN

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          • A fun video to watch although I wish the samurai had his armor on.



            And the same two guys in another one:

            Last edited by R. Evans; 17 Jan 08, 13:51.
            Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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            • The knight's armor:




              The samurai's armor:

              Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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              • I always loved the gothic armor with sallet helm. I'm a big fan of the Wars of the Roses and this style was very heavily used at Towton, Barnet, and Bosworth. It was very difficult to penetrate with a bladed weapon and maces and hammers had better results.

                If I had to guess, I'd say the yoroi was an Edo Period piece from between 1600 and 1800. The horns, or Kuwagata, are large like the Kabuto from the 1100's to 1300's, but the Fukigaeshi or 'turn backs' on the helmet are small and more like the Sengoku or later period. The Do and the thigh plates are also more akin to the later period.
                TTFN

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                • Originally posted by Kendoka Girl View Post
                  I always loved the gothic armor with sallet helm. I'm a big fan of the Wars of the Roses and this style was very heavily used at Towton, Barnet, and Bosworth. It was very difficult to penetrate with a bladed weapon and maces and hammers had better results.

                  If I had to guess, I'd say the yoroi was an Edo Period piece from between 1600 and 1800. The horns, or Kuwagata, are large like the Kabuto from the 1100's to 1300's, but the Fukigaeshi or 'turn backs' on the helmet are small and more like the Sengoku or later period. The Do and the thigh plates are also more akin to the later period.

                  So do we need a different suit of samurai armor? This thread has supposed that this encounter takes place before the advent of firearms.
                  Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                  • I could be completely off base on the yoroi, but it does have some of those markers. A lot of Edo Era revivalist pieces incorporated a lot of things from earlier eras.





                    Here is a replica of a 1300's yoroi. The sode or shoulder guards are large as are the fukigaeshi or 'turn back' plates on the helmet. The shinguards or suneate are also big.

                    For the ideal duel, I'd put it between 1300 and the early 1400's before firearms.

                    For the knight, up until the late 1300's mail and shields are still widely used. Solid cuirasses, greaves, and vambraces are more common too. By Agincourt, plate is predominant with mail filling in the gaps and the shield is falling by the wayside. The bacinet is the common helm as well. It was a misnomer that the armor of the period was too heavy or too cumbersome, but heat exhaustion was a big issue.

                    During that period, I'd say it was anyone's game and, all things being equal, luck would determine the winner.
                    TTFN

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                    • Great stuff! I guess we'll never really know how this would turn out unless someone builds a very good computer model and has them fight. But even then, I doubt we would really get a true impression of how a duel would go.
                      Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                      • I was thinking that just based on the weapons and armor, the samurai would have the edge earlier on between 1000 and 1300. Then, they'd be even until the mid 1400's where the knight's armor becomes vastly superior. Then, in the mid 1500's they even out again as Japanese armor takes some quantum leaps ahead in protective ability due to muskets.
                        TTFN

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                        • I was going to add that I was just reading about different kissaki or katana tips that were made more for thrust attacks, much like the more diamond cross section blades in Europe.
                          TTFN

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                          • I still feel that the real game winner here is the respective warriors endurance and survivability.

                            The samurai would be wearing lighter armor and therefore be more manuverable. But a well made suit of armor in 14-15th century Germany/Italy is not going to weight the knight down to were the samurai will be able to just dance around him.

                            However, the superior armor of the knight will allow him, over time, to avoid any lesser strikes much easier than the samurai. The samurai would need a very careful strike against one of the knights weak joints, while the knight (who could be using a mace, flail, etc.) would just need to get a few good hits, but not perfect ones.

                            This means that over time the fight would turn against the samurai because the odds are that the knight would be able to hit the samurai's weaker armor a few times. If each combatant hit their opponent 5 times, the knight is going to cause more damage than the samurai unless the samurai hits one of the vulnerable joints of the knights armor.

                            The versatility of the knight in melee (flails, polearms, swords, shields, etc.) versus the samurai's rather limited selection of spear and katana (we did agree on no missile weapons, right?) added to the knights ability to shrug off all but the most well aimed or powerful hits gives him the clear advantage.

                            Isn't samurai armor mostly leather and ceramics?

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                            • One of the things both armors were vulnerable to was degredation due to damage. A decent yoroi of the 1300 - 1400's could suffer much damage and still function. It was made primarily of leather, cord, and small amounts of metal. Gothic armor of the 1450's + was excellent protection, but held together by a lot of straps which could be cut or fouled. This could lead to serious degredation in protective ability and mobility.

                              By the 1560's samurai do, or breastplates are most often European influenced, being solid steel with flanges to deflect blows.
                              TTFN

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                              • Well I say it all matters what the weapons are. If the knight is weilding the classic Long/Broad sword and shield the Samurai would probably win. If the knight is weilding a Polearm than the knight has the advantage. and if the knight has a mace/flail it matters what kind.(something like a concussion mace is useless but other ones a knight has a slight advantage)
                                Sword Battle- the europeans sword weren't made nearly as great quality as a japanese one. the european sword would shatter if struck hard by the Katana. With a broken weapon the japanese has won.
                                Polearm- the range can help the knight in many ways. as said above if the Polearm struck the japanese the chances are it is a more serious hit than if a japanese hit a european.
                                Mace- Concussion- The concussion mace was used to pound a knights tin can and shatter most of the bones in his body. The concussion mace was a very useful tool when attacking a plated knight for a hit to anywhere can cause severe damage. but against i light armoured warrior it has very little use.
                                God didnít create evil. Evil is the result of when man does not have God's love in his heart.It's the cold when there is no heat.The darkness that comes when there is no light

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